[lukeap69]

For me, the DAC-19 was an eye opener. I didn't expect that a DAC will have a big impact on my view of an amp. I was selling my Lyr 2 before because it wasn't getting the head time that it should. The Rok stole the show big time. So when I've received my DAC-19 more than one moth ago, I've paired it with Lyr 2 just for fun before selling it and I was surprised to hear that what I didn't like about the Lyr is gone (sort of.) Compared to the other amps I've heard, I thought the Lyr 2 has a very aggressive high. Maybe I am not using the correct word but to me it seems aggressive and fatiguing. This is when it was fed by my NFB-1DAC. The DAC-19 had totally changed that. Now the Lyr 2 is getting more head time as the Rok. Don't get me wrong, the NFB-1DAC is a very good D-S DAC. In fact, I have no problem with it feeding my Rok. Although, I still prefer the DAC-19 feeding my Rok. 

 

[blasjw]

  For those who had the discussion about EMI/RF absorption...there is alternative to the 3M stuff.... OYAIDE makes some and its the same stuff basically.
I thought I would share this if anyone may be interested.
http://r.ebay.com/HidE9x
 
 
OYAIDE
MWA-030S
 
same or equiv
 
3M
AB5050S 

And how about Stillpoints ERS:
http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/ers

 

[Stillhart]

I heard this stuff really helps too!  Just slather it on all the moving parts for increased plankton and rainbows.

 

[blasjw]

  I heard this stuff really helps too!  Just slather it on all the moving parts for increased plankton and rainbows.

Very funny.  I haven't heard anyone question EMI before but, there's a reason, for example, that power supplies are generally shielded in pro audio gear.

 

[Stillhart]

  Very funny.  I haven't heard anyone question EMI before but, there's a reason, for example, that power supplies are generally shielded in pro audio gear.

 
I am not questioning EMI.  I'm questioning why such a simple, cheap addition wouldn't be included in a $800 DAC if it were so useful.  Or even any of the multi-thousand dollar A-GD products.
 
And don't get me started on pointy feet for solid-state electronics...

 

[blasjw]

   
I am not questioning EMI.  I'm questioning why such a simple, cheap addition wouldn't be included in a $800 DAC if it were so useful.  Or even any of the multi-thousand dollar A-GD products.
 
And don't get me started on pointy feet for solid-state electronics..

What the **** are you smoking?  Just look at the audio-gd designs.  See the full metal separations between the power supply and the rest of the electronics, the full metal shroud around the transformer alone, and the copper shielding on it.  What do you think those are for?  I have a $299 Behringer DEQ2496 that has full shielding around the transformer and the power supply.  These non-metallic sheets, etc. are just an alternative to the metal shrouds/plates, copper sheets, copper plates, etc.

 

[Stillhart]

  What the **** are you smoking?  Just look at the audio-gd designs.  See the full metal separations between the power supply and the rest of the electronics, the full metal shroud around the transformer alone, and the copper shielding on it.  What do you think those are for?  I have a $299 Behringer DEQ2496 that has full shielding around the transformer and the power supply.

 
So given all the shielding that's already there, you believe that adding a few small squares of additional shielding on top of each chip is going to have a noticeable effect?  Because that appears to be what you're saying.

 

[blasjw]

   
So given all the shielding that's already there, you believe that adding a few small squares of additional shielding on top of each chip is going to have a noticeable effect?  Because that appears to be what you're saying.

Let me give you a hint, not all devices have that level of shielding if any.

 

[Stillhart]

  Let me give you a hint, not all devices have that level of shielding if any.

 
This is the DAC-19 thread.  We're talking about the DAC-19 specifically.
 
I apologize if my Unicorn Meat joke rubbed you the wrong way, but there's no need to continue to be rude to me now that we've established that you misinterpreted my meaning.

 

[.Sup]

Kingwa brings one of the best DACs back to the people with slimmer wallets. Kudos!

 

[evillamer]

 

  What the **** are you smoking?  Just look at the audio-gd designs.  See the full metal separations between the power supply and the rest of the electronics, the full metal shroud around the transformer alone, and the copper shielding on it.  What do you think those are for?  I have a $299 Behringer DEQ2496 that has full shielding around the transformer and the power supply.

 
So given all the shielding that's already there, you believe that adding a few small squares of additional shielding on top of each chip is going to have a noticeable effect?  Because that appears to be what you're saying.

 
Check out this before you dismiss adding shielding on top of chips
 

 I was very surprised to see that shielding the DAC yields such improvement or that the DAC is susceptible to airborne noise (RFI/EMI) and interference to such an extent

 
https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/?s=pll+unlocks
 
 
Another article to back it up. This time from Analog Devices. 20bit DACs anyone?
 

 Shield fast-switching signals, such as clocks, with digital ground to avoid radiating noise to other parts of the board. They should never be run near the reference inputs or under the package. It is essential to minimize noise on the reference inputs because it couples right through to the DAC output. Avoid crossover of digital and analog signals, and run traces on opposite sides of the board at right angles to each other to reduce the effects of feedthrough on the board.

 

 Physical Stress High-precision analog semiconductor devices are sensitive to stress on their package. Stress relief compounds used within the packaging have a settling effect, but they cannot compensate for significant stress due to pressure exerted directly on the package by local sources, such as flexing of the PCB. The larger the printed circuit board, the more stress that a package could potentially suffer, so sensitive circuitry should be placed on as small a board as possible—with connection to the larger system through flexible or nonrigid connectors. If a large board cannot be avoided, stress relief cuts should be made around sensitive components, on two or (preferably) three sides of the component, greatly reducing the stress on the component due to board flexing.

 
 
http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/44-04/AD5791.pdf
 
 
IMHO: audiophile grade R2R dacs are running at ultra sensitive voltage levels that even air currents/temperature changes/physical stress or random emi, electrical noise can affect the signal linearity/integrity at the low level(before amplification  and etc).

 

[bimmer100]

So given all the shielding that's already there, you believe that adding a few small squares of additional shielding on top of each chip is going to have a noticeable effect?  Because that appears to be what you're saying.

Stillhart, There you go being the Instigator. I swear you're trying to get a rise out of anyone you can. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to be a clear pattern with you.

There are applications of emi/rf film.
What you do with your unicorn meat is your business. Humor aside.
I believe most people here are trying to keep things scientific and improve sound with legitimate and cost effective ways.
Kingwa is fully aware of reducing emi/rf and preventing Eddy Current effects by shielding as much as possible. Possibly there is a balance of where keeping aesthetics to remain pleasing. Adding the squares of grey stuff is not exactly attractive by any means! But for the DIY'ers that want to squeeze every bit of performance... Sticking on grey squares is likely acceptable. Kingwas designs likely reduce it to near minimum but likely they don't eliminate it. What's wrong with going one step further and making things look less aesthetically pleasing as a cost for getting a possibly increase of sound quality.

I wanted to contribute some links to alternative sources to find emi/rf materials to those who want to DIY with their own gear.As someone else said... Not all gear is as well shielded as Audio-gd. Kingwa state many places about how his designs help reduce and prevent these issues by creating walls of aluminum, the aluminum chassis itself, etc. not many manufactures use the stick on film unless it's needed in tight spaces such as cell phones. I could see the benefit on smaller devices/portables.

No disrespect. I encourage DIY and I believe stillhart had mentioned picking up some of this 3M5050 stuff for his DIY project. Unless maybe you opted for the unicorn meat?

The stock DAC19 sounds great to me. I thought about Doing the emi/rf mods just for fun and see if anything could improve. Why not?

 

[Stillhart]

Stillhart, There you go being the Instigator. I swear you're trying to get a rise out of anyone you can. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to be a clear pattern with you.

There are applications of emi/rf film.
What you do with your unicorn meat is your business. Humor aside.
I believe most people here are trying to keep things scientific and improve sound with legitimate and cost effective ways.
Kingwa is fully aware of reducing emi/rf and preventing Eddy Current effects by shielding as much as possible. Possibly there is a balance of where keeping aesthetics to remain pleasing. Adding the squares of grey stuff is not exactly attractive by any means! But for the DIY'ers that want to squeeze every bit of performance... Sticking on grey squares is likely acceptable. Kingwas designs likely reduce it to near minimum but likely they don't eliminate it. What's wrong with going one step further and making things look less aesthetically pleasing as a cost for getting a possibly increase of sound quality.

I wanted to contribute some links to alternative sources to find emi/rf materials to those who want to DIY with their own gear.As someone else said... Not all gear is as well shielded as Audio-gd. Kingwa state many places about how his designs help reduce and prevent these issues by creating walls of aluminum, the aluminum chassis itself, etc. not many manufactures use the stick on film unless it's needed in tight spaces such as cell phones. I could see the benefit on smaller devices/portables.

No disrespect. I encourage DIY and I believe stillhart had mentioned picking up some of this 3M5050 stuff for his DIY project. Unless maybe you opted for the unicorn meat?

The stock DAC19 sounds great to me. I thought about Doing the emi/rf mods just for fun and see if anything could improve. Why not?

 
Okay, first of all, I'm not instigating.  I'm repeating what I'm hearing from someone trying to get a better understanding of what he's saying.  I did the same thing with you previously and you flipped out on me.  Repeating what I'm hearing in order to confirm that we're on the same page is a very valid way to make sure there's no miscommunication.  It's not instigation, it's the opposite:  it's an attempt to make sure we're communicating well.  It's hardly useful to have a discussion where we're talking about two different things but don't realize it.  If I repeat what I'm hearing and that's not what you're saying, you simply say "no, that's not what I'm saying" and then clarify.  
 
If you take my whole conversation with blasjw in that context, you'll see that, despite his insulting and rude attitude, my tone never changed and we finally got a point where we understood each other.  
 
Now to get back on topic:  I appreciate your linking the additional option that's cheaper than the 3M.  You're right, I do intend to use it on my Beta22 build when I get to it and the cheaper option is much appreciated.  I just don't think adding that stuff to the DAC-19 is going to have any effect or Kingwa would have done it already.  Certainly on the TOTL models where every little bit of performance is expected, do you think he wouldn't have added $50 of stickers if it did anything at all?  While your conjecture on aesthetics is certainly plausible, IMHO, it's a bit of a reach.

 

[Solude]

Stillhart, There you go being the Instigator. I swear you're trying to get a rise out of anyone you can.

 
In case anyone is unaware, Head-Fi has an ignore function.  If the content of another member's posts are consistently bothersome or filler or any other reason... just block them.  Now if only it also hid the quote when someone replied... sigh.

 

[evillamer]

I am not denying the fact is Kingwa is definitely a competent and expert DAC designer/engineer(and an audiophile himself). But does it mean we cannot improve on the Audio-gd dac(or any good dac) from there on at all? 
 
e.g. VIA USB32 was replaced by Amanero Combo384
e.g. Many reported better sound quality with use of I2S
e..g Many reported adding things like Wyrd or Uptone regen improved DACs
e.g. Many reported better sound quality with PLL disabled instead of the factory default settings
e.g. Kingwa's DAC power supply is no doubt top notch, but I have noticed improvements from adding additional power conditioning
 
No doubt there are plenty of expensive tomfoolery and unproven tweaks in the audiophile world with all sorts of crystals, cable lifters and etc. I feel that we should take an open approach to things and not dismiss them just because does not fall within our limited human knowledge or limited scope logic.
 
The 3m emi isn't REALLY that expensive(compared to other kinds of tweaks/upgrade/silver cables/power conditioning etc). Will it yield a noticable improvement? I think it really depends on your entire system as a whole.
 
To note. Before I applied the 3m emi shielding to my Master 7 dsp/dac/chips. I did consult with Kingwa on the possible dangers(e.g. overheating), voiding warranty. He said it was ok as the dsp doesn't emit too much heat. He did not outright object to this tweak at all(to clarify, doesn't mean he endorses it either). IMHO, Kingwa always give good advice to his customers on things, especially where he will tell you "don't waste $".