[Spad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he already stated that he borrowed his friend's and did a review with them in a noisy restaurant, train and some other place.

Good grief! And that's enough to write a "review"? I feel like I've been had. My fault for not reading more carefully. Oh well, it may have been fairly pointless but it was fun--sorta.

Good luck with the NE-7Ms and here's hoping they arrive on time! Don'cha hate waiting for things?

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spad /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good luck with the NE-7Ms and here's hoping they arrive on time! Don'cha hate waiting for things?

More than anything else. I live like 20 minutes away from NuForce. Using USPS for that seems pointless but such is the thing with internet direct sales.

Usually if I mail netflix DVDs from work before 4 pm it reaches there the next morning. So there is a strong possibilities they will be there when I get home from work. Fingers crossed!

 

[Spad]

I look forward to your comparison of the NE-7M and iIEM (AIEM, Apple IEM--man, we need a label). I just ordered the 7Ms as well, so we shall see. Based on the reviews here, I expect great things from the 7Ms and won't be surprised if I like them even better than Apple's offering. If so, I guess that will make them the greatest value.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif How about an analogy then? Take a 2008 Camry v6 and a 2002 Lexus LS 430 v8 both can be had for the same price, say $24000. On pure value the used LS offers more "value" by virtue of fact that the Lexus was designed to be made for $55000 instead of the Camry's $24000. The Lexus will also have more features and be refined. Would you consider that to be a fair comparison?

Actually, if both cars can usually (or easily or commonly) be had for the same price then, yes, I think they are comparable. Most questions on Head-Fi have the structure "What are the best X for $Y?" And when we answer, we should and do tend to use the street prices for $Y, not the MRSP. So, to us CX300 is $25, not $50 (or whatever), HD25 is $200 not $350, etc. SR60 is sadly always $70 (actually, a lot of people say $60 here). And I think this practice here - of assuming street prices rather than MRSP - is right. It's not idiocy at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NajoBB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Their MRSP is still 149$. I've paid mine 149€ 2 years ago and they still cost more than 120€ here, Apple IEMs are 79€. Just because their street price in US is much less than their MRSP doesn't mean anything. They are not in the same category so the comparison is invalid. By your logic, i could order IE8 (which i did ) here in Europe for less than half of their MRSP and compare them for...i don't know....se310, s.fi5pro? They have the same or similar price here. Are they comparable?

Again, yes. Once again, think about how we answer questions. If IE8, SE310, and S.Fi5Pro were all $N headphones, and someone asks, "What are the best IEMs for $N?", you'd include all 3. And you'd say, "IE8 is the best of these. They sound as if they're worth much more!"

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think he already stated that he borrowed his friend's and did a review with them in a noisy restaurant, train and some other place. Spending time with them seems to be the key. The more I use them the better they sound to me.

Slightly misleading. I spent three hours or so in a quiet apartment for most of my comparisons. The noisy environments served to test the noise isolations of the IEMs.

However, I agree that more time has to be spent with these. I spent last night listening to the Apple IEMs again, and this morning my impressions haven't changed.

On the classical: I don't have most of my classical albums with me, but I will soon and I'll certainly look into it some more. I wonder if it has something to do with fit as well. How deep we put them in our ears, etc. Just can't shake this off. The soundstage thing, especially.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spad /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good grief! And that's enough to write a "review"? I feel like I've been had. My fault for not reading more carefully. Oh well, it may have been fairly pointless but it was fun--sorta.

I sure hope it wasn't pointless. I'm not sure "psychological burn in" would make that much of a difference, especially when analytically evaluating characteristics like soundstage and detail. These are fairly straightforward things. Do I hear that hi-hat at time 2:01 on Track 1 of Album X? Yes, etc. I'll concede that I might enjoy the Apple IEMs more after a few weeks, but is there reason to think that I'd hear things I'd not heard before during my analysis? If so, what's the reason?

 

[jonathanjong]

Edit: Added new section on fit, and added a note about how much time I've had with these.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, if both cars can usually (or easily or commonly) be had for the same price then, yes, I think they are comparable.

So Car magazines should start comparing those cars regardless of how much the MSRP is?

You are confusing value comparison shopping and objective product comparisons.

Quote:

Again, yes. Once again, think about how we answer questions. If IE8, SE310, and S.Fi5Pro were all $N headphones, and someone asks, "What are the best IEMs for $N?", you'd include all 3. And you'd say, "IE8 is the best of these. They sound as if they're worth much more!"

You are making a comparison of "value" not an objective comparison of two products. You can make a comparison of value based on sale price. But doing an objective comparison should always use MSRP.

 

[oarnura]

I went against my better judgement about my wallet and ordered a er-6i because I just had to check them out for my self.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif So Car magazines should start comparing those cars regardless of how much the MSRP is? You are confusing value comparison shopping and objective product comparisons. You are making a comparison of "value" not an objective comparison of two products. You can make a comparison of value based on sale price. But doing an objective comparison should always use MSRP.

I don't think I'm "confusing" value and objective comparisons. Indeed, I'm not sure what you mean by an "objective comparison." Is this a comparison on "quality" alone, without price considerations? If so, neither street price nor MRSP should be involved.

My claim is that "value" comparisons are useful. They're what consumers - esp. the question-askers on Head-Fi - are looking for. They want to know, "What can I get for $100?" They want to know, "I can buy X and Y, both for $100, which is better?" This is why I think we should compare similarly street-priced headphones. And to answer your car question, yes, if two cars are (street-)priced similarly, they should be compared regardless of how much it actually costs to build said cars. Here's an example:

Say I live in Country X, where the import tax from Germany and Japan differ significantly, such that the latest Mercedes costs the same amount as an entry-level Honda. (Assume also that there is no way to escape said tax.) What should a popular national car magazine do in this case? Well, they should compare the Merc and the Honda, and come out saying the Merc wins every time.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think I'm "confusing" value and objective comparisons. Indeed, I'm not sure what you mean by an "objective comparison." Is this a comparison on "quality" alone, without price considerations? If so, neither street price nor MRSP should be involved.

What? Compare two cars with out street price or MSRP. Let's see a Bugatti Veyron vs a Mini Cooper S. Comparable?

How about a Sennheiser IE8 to a UE Metro.Fi. Comparable?



Quote:

Say I live in Country X, where the import tax from Germany and Japan differ significantly, such that the latest Mercedes costs the same amount as an entry-level Honda. (Assume also that there is no way to escape said tax.) What should a popular national car magazine do in this case? Well, they should compare the Merc and the Honda, and come out saying the Merc wins every time.

Not in reliability and cost of ownership.. guaranteed!!! There is no way any country has silly taxes where a S550 costs as much as a Honda Civic. The import tax from Japan would be 500%. of MSRP and Germany 0% of MSRP. It is still a function of MSRP.

Then the magazines would compare Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche. Piting a 3 series against a C class and an A4 so on. The car magazines wouldn't take a 3series and compare it to a Merc SL black series because a used SL has depreciated some crazy percentage.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif What? Compare two cars with out street price or MSRP. Let's see a Bugatti Veyron vs a Mini Cooper S. Comparable? How about a Sennheiser IE8 to a UE Metro.Fi. Comparable?

I don't see why not. They might not be comparable in quality, but if all you care about is quality, then talking about MRSP is also besides the point. If you care about a price at all, it should be the street price. That's my claim. That the MRSP is always irrelevant. Perhaps you want to use MRSP as a proxy or a heuristic for quality, which is...understandable, but unwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not in reliability and cost of ownership.. guaranteed!!! There is no way any country has silly taxes where a S550 costs as much as a Honda Civic. The import tax from Japan would be 500%. of MSRP. Then the car companies would compare Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche. Piting a 3 series against a C class and an A4 so on. The car companies wouldn't take a 3series and compare it to a Merc SL black series because a used SL has depreciated some crazy percentage.

Erm, it's a hypothetical example, to illustrate a principle. Perhaps an unhelpful one. Sorry, am used to coming up with such examples for philosophical discourse. We talk about zombies and objects that are grue, and stuff... Heh. I'll fall back on my anthem that Head-Fiers (and consumers in general) want to know, "What's the best X I can get for $N?" Ergo, we should compare similarly priced Xs. And we should not use the lowest price possible (because such deals may be rare), nor should we used MRSP (because an X can easily be had for cheaper).

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif I went against my better judgement about my wallet and ordered a er-6i because I just had to check them out for my self.

Awesome. Tell me if I need to get my ears checked.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't see why not. They might not be comparable in quality, but if all you care about is quality, then talking about MRSP is also besides the point. If you care about a price at all, it should be the street price. That's my claim. That the MRSP is always irrelevant. Perhaps you want to use MRSP as a proxy or a heuristic for quality, which is...understandable, but unwise.

Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. MSRP determines quality at some heursitc level. You don't get engineering that goes into a Veyron for the price of a Mini.



Quote:

Erm, it's a hypothetical example, to illustrate a principle. Perhaps an unhelpful one. Sorry, am used to coming up with such examples for philosophical discourse. We talk about zombies and objects that are grue, and stuff... Heh. I'll fall back on my anthem that Head-Fiers (and consumers in general) want to know, "What's the best X I can get for $N?" Ergo, we should compare similarly priced Xs. And we should not use the lowest price possible (because such deals may be rare), nor should we used MRSP (because an X can easily be had for cheaper).

I like such debates.

I like to play devil's advocate to spur discussions too. If shopping for best bang for the buck I agree with you.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Awesome. Tell me if I need to get my ears checked.

Or may be I need to. Or the er-6i are just as good as you say and Apple's will sound like crap after my eyes have been opened.