Neutral reference sound
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:14 PM Post #31 of 53
 
 
so my understanding is that to at least get the frequency response close to what was intended for most albums, we need something close to this as headphone's signature. pretty much the opposite of the equal loudness contour.

I dealt with this branch of acoustics since it is very interesting from mathematical point of view. Sorry if it will hurt you, but using the same units for axes does not mean that we deal with the same event/process. Reflect this graph horizontally with respect to +2dB level and tell me what do you see.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 12:57 PM Post #32 of 53
 
-You said you made an equalizer curve that looks like the equal loudness curve and applied it to the playback chain and said it was more natural.
 
-People pointed out you shouldn't do that because all the mastering  processes take that into account because it is done by people whose ears are working that way.
 
-You said despite of those facts applying such EQ it still sounds better to you. I shall add that it might be true that some recordings are light on the bass/treble but it is NOT because of the equal loudness curve, as you pointed out it is most likely because of the differences of the equipment that you use for playback and they used for mastering.
 
-After that you proceed to post a lot of anecdotes and stuff which is totally irrelevant to the discussion and accuse others for trolling and not making arguements.
 
Again correct and forgive me if I misunderstood the point of anyone's posts. English is not my first language.

1) We have 2!!!! curves. One - kept in mind while mastering. Second - represents our unit (spk or hp). Only when second (mine) coinsides with the first (master, reference) I shall hear what author wanted to show me. So if I have a headphone which I can adjust by light EQ-ing to master curve (to minimize distortions) I can say that I understood a masterpiece. I may like or hate it, but I heard original thoughts as intended. Am I wrong with that?
2) If track was mastered with MY CURVE in mind, then yes, It should not be touched. Sorry to say this, but even if ELC is not the one, I know at least three other typical curves considered by professional and in scientific research. And many-many headphones only resemble them. What should I do now?
3) All serious listening I make looking at spectrum in real time and always checking how natural instruments sound. My test track list includes dozens of totally different and complicated tracks including low bass (going below 20Hz) and very high treble (up to 21kHz). And I keep searching for more complicated compositions and effects in pace/resolution/dynamic resolution 
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 2:34 PM Post #33 of 53
 
I agree with what you're saying but to me, what you're describing is people using the term "neutral" who don't understand what it means. Neutral is not a 100% subjective term, it has a relatively precise meaning. I also agree that giving it an absolutely precise meaning would clear up some forum discussions quite a bit but at the same time, if we're going to be honest about how audio works in practice, then we're going to need a new term to replace "neutral" and with that new term we're effectively back to square one again. Having said this, there is to some degree an avoidance of honesty here on head-fi, even to an extent here in the science forum. That's to be expected though, this is after all a site devoted to headphones/headphone related equipment.
 
If we are going to be honest or at least strive to be, then as you effectively say, the vast majority (probably even more than 99.9%) of the time "neutral" would NOT be a term applicable to headphones. One of the misconceptions I see here quite frequently (or if not a misconception then a least a fact somewhat "swept under the rug") is that even if a set of headphones existed with a perfectly linear frequency response, they would still NOT generally be "neutral", for two different, though related, reasons:
 
1. The stereo image is presented very differently with headphones than with speakers, as are bass frequencies.
 
2. Commercial recordings are generally not created in linear environments and are not designed to be reproduced (played) in linear environments.
 
Point #1 appears to be well known/appreciated, although somewhat swept under the rug, whereas point #2 seems to be a more common actual misconception. There are quite a few threads, even in this sub-forum, regarding the pursuit of linearity, which in some parts of the recording/playback chain is entirely desirable but in others is only desirable to a very limited extent. In these parts of the chain, typically the transducers, neutrality is what's important, NOT linearity! IME here on Head-fi, the most common issue/problem is not the misuse of the term "neutral" but of the term "reference" or at least, of what people use as a reference. For some reason I don't understand, the production (recording, mixing and mastering) of the material being listened to is largely or at least significantly ignored which is bizarre because this IS the reference. Excepting just one or two terms (such as linear), no other terms (including neutral) have any meaning at all without considering the reference and the production of that reference. Let me give an example:
 
1. Who here would consider Beats headphones to be linear? .... - Hopefully no one!
2. Who here would consider Beats headphones to be neutral? .... - Probably no one again but, I contend that that view is not necessarily true, it all depends on the production of the reference! Let's say the person/s who created the recording (inc. mixing/mastering) did so on Beats headphones. As far as someone playing back this reference is concerned, Beats headphones would in fact be the most "neutral" headphones on the planet and your far more linear headphones would be proportionately less "neutral".
 
More generally, headphones can only really be described as "neutral" when playing back material specifically mixed for headphones and even then, the degree of neutrality would depend on the frequency response of your headphones relative to the headphones the mix was created with. There appears to be an assumption, even here in the science forum, that linear is the reference to aspire to but I contend that's only desirable up to a point, beyond that point, the search for linearity is just as likely to actually take us further away from neutrality.
 
G
 

 
Fwiw, I've enjoyed reading your posts. Well written and easy to understand. Thanks.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 3:53 PM Post #34 of 53
Serious objection. Personally I don't want but technically we have to exclude sound stage width and especially depth when talking about natural sound.
 
My collection of hp's is not perfect, but even good semi-open have only a glimpse of depth and only a good one open headphone has it. But they still sound close to natural, at least in my opinion.
 
So do not over complicate things, Pls
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 4:30 PM Post #35 of 53
Just in case I wasn't clear enough: http://www.head-fi.org/t/661886/equal-loudness-curve-testing
 
The ELC have nothing to do with how you equalize your headphones or speakers it has literally nothing to do with it. (Except at very low volumes.)
To think of it I don't even know why it got posted here.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 5:39 PM Post #36 of 53
  Just in case I wasn't clear enough: http://www.head-fi.org/t/661886/equal-loudness-curve-testing
 
The ELC have nothing to do with how you equalize your headphones or speakers it has literally nothing to do with it. (Except at very low volumes.)
To think of it I don't even know why it got posted here.

Volunteers were subjected to a 1 kHz sound at 60 dB; this is a loudness of 60 phon. Since this curves were measured up to 120 phons, Mad rock concert straight in your ears. Not recommended to withstand more then 30 seconds. Louder curves now lost small "bumps" but still have the same basic shape.
BTW. Hardcore technicians and researches, doctors also work with ELC. The last ones trying to keep your health safe, the first ones develop materials and acoustic backgrounds which audiophiles use later. At the same time AP’s reject ELC - to bo...oring, no place to show personal greatness and pocket depth.

 
Resembles who are acting like this?
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 6:13 PM Post #37 of 53
once more, it's not a matter of rejecting the existence of the equal loudness contour but more about understanding where it comes from and most of all the fact that we all, at all times are impacted by our own curve for a given loudness. the guy playing the instrument is hearing like that, the guy mastering the album is hearing like that and so are we. how introducing a variable that has already been there at each and every step of the album production, could possibly lead to be closer to the original/neutral sound? you do not explain that.
 
and please stop hiding behind other people who supposedly know their stuff and agree with you, because as far as I can see, the only one saying that EQing a headphone with ELC curve will lead to neutral sound, is you and only you.
 
to get neutral sounding music, we want to make sure that the signal reaching our eardrum will be the same in real life, on speakers, and on headphones. so to get neutral sounding headphone, what needs to be compensated is how different the sound reaching our eardrum is from a real band playing. at no point in that reasoning can I see the point of introducing ELC. HRTF sure, ELC... nope.
note that I'm pretty much just saying the same thing for the third time but you don't seem to be willing to try and understand, or present anything the would look like a reason for me to revise my judgement on the matter.
 
to make it crystal clear, I believe you're wrong and looking down on us at the same time.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 6:46 PM Post #38 of 53
ELC is defined by nature, even if all humanity except me will declare that it sounds not natural for them, it's a matter preferences. Natural is defined by nature.
 
We are chemo-electrical machines which gained consciousness. Punto. +1 dimension to the realm. We obtained a possibility to imagine how we’d love to hear.
In this occasion free widely available for majority sound sources define not natural – typical sound profile. Is it natural? Most probably not.
 
We should use another word unless all people here are selling equipment and they desperately want another possibility to fool outsiders and rise sales.
 
Since the second frequent word to be used is balanced (but even more ambiguous), lets advance in definition.
 
BTW. Believe me or not, but if disrespect someone, I am just ignoring them. If I entered discussion, then first of all here we have people capable to reach the result. With their valuable opinions and knowledge.
 
Discussion could be hot and harsh, but it needs basis and logic. Still not getting much of that.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 7:04 PM Post #39 of 53
Just to explain in simple words why we were stuck in our intentions, a small trolling gem from me (sorry ladies):
 
Fully define and present scientific reasoning for the task: “Describe the natural shape of girl’s butt”
 
Can I – Nope (my wife will kill me straight away). Can you – Hardly (similar reasons) and only after killing several million of other machos since THIS is going to be HOT.
Ready? Go!
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 7:07 PM Post #40 of 53
 Natural is defined by nature.

 
Are you just riding the words? Sure let's say naturality is defined by nature but linearity is certainly not defined by our preferences. If a speaker reproduces all the frequencies at the same pressure level (measured in decibels) (given that the amplitude of the signal is the same as well) then it measures linear. However the perceived loudness of the sound (measured in phons) would indeed look like the ECL.
 
Oh, and you still didn't tell us why you would want to "compensate" because of the ELC. Like are you going to EQ the real world as well?
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 7:56 PM Post #41 of 53
   
Are you just riding the words? Sure let's say naturality is defined by nature but linearity is certainly not defined by our preferences. If a speaker reproduces all the frequencies at the same pressure level (measured in decibels) (given that the amplitude of the signal is the same as well) then it measures linear. However the perceived loudness of the sound (measured in phons) would indeed look like the ECL.
 
Oh, and you still didn't tell us why you would want to "compensate" because of the ELC. Like are you going to EQ the real world as well?


Just checked at several famous tracks, new and old school. Got more life and it was easier to catch more details in lows and high treble. In open cans it was easier to locate sound sources, especially in front and behind.

And finally you asked right question in right form. In ELC amplitude means sensitivity. So applying more power is detected easily and gives sensation. Which sensation we should call balanced. But if we define something, virtually any person could do some test with clear indications which sensation he/she should perceive as balanced.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 8:18 PM Post #42 of 53
  Discussion could be hot and harsh, but it needs basis and logic. Still not getting much of that.

right back at you.
we have explained why we believe you're wrong. gregorio with his usual "tact". me trying to play the cool moderator and then starting to feel like you have no idea what you're talking about. and VNandor with such a nice post that it made me feel guilty for not being nicer myself. and I believe we've all done it using logic to explain our points.
meanwhile most of what you've done is say stuff like rose are red, violets are blue, therefore I'm right. that's not logic and certainly not a demonstration of anything. there isn't any correlation between all the weird anecdotes and list of your friends, and your first post about EQing a headphone with ELC to have neutral sound.
so if you have an actual rational reason for your ELC idea, you should really try to explain it properly now. because else I will soon start "cleaning" this topic.
 
Apr 25, 2016 at 8:40 PM Post #43 of 53
As you see, things calmed down.
 
But grammar is grammar so better use another word.
 
Basis?! 85% should be technical and exact, sounding equal for everyone, in any cans with any gear. 15% for romance and polish.
Here technical does not mean special equipment and measurements.
 
On the contrary, it is very annoying, I want a solution w/o special equipment.
I need tracks/procedure/criteria to follow with unique clear descriptions.
Max to buy additionally - good basic mic, good basic soundcard to grab input and free software. I already have them, but others could borrow/buy and download missing component to find out if their cans sound natural.
 
Give me that since other head'ifiers got more knowledge and experience.
 
Apr 26, 2016 at 8:09 AM Post #44 of 53
  As you see, things calmed down.

 
That's because your posts are so full of incorrect assumptions, logical errors and a lack of basic understanding that it's simply not worth the all effort required to go through point by point and disprove everything you're saying. For example:
 
Quote:
  Serious objection. Personally I don't want but technically we have to exclude sound stage width and especially depth when talking about natural sound.

 
Unless you record something in an anechoic chamber then all natural sound has "depth" and recording in an anechoic chamber is about as unnatural as it's possible to get! Some things are occasionally recorded close to anechoically but then that's just so that "depth" can be added later, artificially. In other words, without "depth" there is no "natural" sound and therefore your statement is nonsensical! Here's another example:
 
 
85% should be technical and exact, sounding equal for everyone, in any cans with any gear.

 
That's impossible!
 
These are just a couple of the many similar examples in your posts. Natural is certainly not defined by nature, have you ever heard a natural rock drum kit or electric guitar? Even with acoustic instruments, their sound is defined by the acoustic (inc. "depth") they are placed in and the relative position of the listener. From virtually your first post in this thread you have confused what you personally like to hear with what is "natural" or "good". Being able to easily differentiate or locate sounds does not make your cans "good" or "natural", it could just as easily be that your cans are artificially widening the stereo image to the point that sounds which are not intended to be separately locatable do appear to be in different locations, in which case your cans are bad and unnatural, even though you personally like it that way.
 
Until you can make a distinction between what you personally enjoy hearing and what is actually "natural" or "neutral" then this will continue to "calm down" as there's no point in trying to have a rational discussion with you.
 
G
 
Apr 26, 2016 at 11:41 AM Post #45 of 53
Gregory,
key words were - university teacher with huge experience. I know to push research made by damn geniuses.Or move them to the dead end really fast to make changes in problem statement for something achievable.
 
I perfectly knew what you and other were saying to me. I knew from the beginning that as defined this problem has no unique solution, hardly any acceptable solution.
So this water had to boil fast.
 
1. Or we had to drop this discussion, but general theme is so important and even bleeds with blood (someone should try at least).
2. Or we have to rethink, aiming at 100% stable description/procedure/....
3. If you think different, go to point 1.
 

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