Neumann NDH 30

[Mike F]

Sorry for double post

In the same video above, he said in some research, when a headphone is painted silver, there is more perceived treble (in context of sharpness) vs painted black. Too lazy to see exactly where he said it, but it's there!

Whether it is the color silver or the concept of silver "metallic" perhaps should be looked into more .... silver color, silver cables ... hmm

So THAT's why they made the HD800S black......!

 

[Not so fat head]

My point is, isn't the HE1 referenced to live music, and that's the selling point?
Never heard them.. Get out there folks and hear live music as often as you can, you'll see just how artificial the sound of headphones and home audio systems are...

 

[jamesjames]

I listened several times to the He1 in local hifi shows, next to the hdv820/HD800S, and I can NOT understand the hype for them( Also ,first time, my 2 friends who came with me shared the same experience because we were hyped asfck to listen to HE1. ). The HE 1 is only better tonally (?), But the soundstage and layering is obviously better on HD800S. I think detail retrieval is almost the same. I can't say which is more detailed. The HD800S gives more technical analytical sound . I prefered the hd800S to acoustic and classical . The HE1 way more bass is more suitable for bassy genres. The transient speed is also not obviously better on he1 regard it is estat driver vs the dynamic driver. It has the same kind of Sennheiser sound sig. I do not want to shatter dreams but IMHO the he 1 is WAAY overpriced and gives the same technical as hd800S but with better tonality (for the crowds). Your choice and wallet is the deciding factor. obviously if you are a millionaire go for the he1. Anyway it is not a big deal, do not trust the hype for them, and do not trust big headphone reviewers , they no1 purpose to make money, instead go listen yourself .

For what it's worth, I think some of this is down to the widespread idea that planars - whether orthodynamic or electrostatic - are technically superior to dynamic drivers. My guess is that this new kind of folklore receives some impetus from the higher prices generally charged for planars - something that expensive must be good! Once again, FWIW, this seems to me completely without foundation. I've been quite surprised to see planars re-enter the market after the 80's, having previously been seen as problematic - principally for the reason that it's difficult to control resonance. To my mind, planars continue to suffer from the same synthetic 'haze' and polite top end that has always been their hallmark. I speculate that this is down to the high levels resonance that are still measured in relation to all planars - but never taken seriously it seems. The Susvara in particular has always produced spectacular 'Man of War' cumulative spectral decay graphs. Some argue that measured resonance can't be shown to have audible effects. I would beg to differ. In any event, I would suggest potential buyers interested in accurate playback make sure they listen to dynamic drivers as well as planars - they might find they walk away with better phones at lower cost. I should end this diatribe by mentioning that I've owned some of the best planars out there - including the SR-009S - and enjoyed many of them - just not as much as the best dynamics.

 

[headstef]

On another matter, I wish to express some thoughts. I can see what was the effect of the NDH 30 popping continuously in the HD-660S2 thread, to an annoying degree for some, especially those who have never listen to it. It is an understandable reaction to express disturbance and dislike. But I think that it is not only that it doesn't let the HD-660S breathe in its own thread. It is also something more serious: Many people have spent hundreds or thousands of hours reading, searching or comparing headphones, have spent thousands of dollars/euros to obtain the best possible headphone sound or the sound that they really like. Reading that a headphone of little more than $/€ 600 could give all that they desired or more, can be very disturbing or sound outrageous because it cancels much of the previous efforts and expenses. Or even worst: beliefs. It is not easy to digest or accept. Even those who speak much for the qualities of the NDH 30, have approached it with some (or much) suspicion and disbelief (me included). But then, after the initial surprise, careful comparisons started to reveal much more sound quality and maturity than ever anticipated - at this "very low" price. Moreover, those who want to buy their first (and possibly their only) top-of-the-line headphone, feel insecure or that there is a great risk, if their hard-earned money are spent to a headphone that may only bring them half-way close to their target. They may need the "safety" of spending more than enough.

Endless arguments are of not much use in the case of this headphone. If its "supporters" are right it is not easy to prove it with words and posts. For the NDH 30, the only way to see the bold and unexpected advancement that it brings for "offensively little money" is to listen to it and compare it - but with the best sources possible (it is not at all power hungry but it will let any high-end source/dac/amp shine).

Another thing is that this price may provoke a "war" of impressions from other manufacturers and affected dealers, since it demonstrates clearly that there is no need for multi-thousand dollar products to obtain a rare and very admirable sound quality. This may prove to be an even more difficult problem than suspicion or disbelief. Only if one or two more manufacturers decide to offer similar quality at similar prices, we may get rid of the hype in headphone prices that is so intense during the last 5-10 years. Not an easy task though, because headphones are the "new cables" now. Prices will go as high as (ignorant) buyers are ready to pay.

Enough talking, I cannot stretch anything else more than this: Do not buy that "rude" headphone, just try to listen/compare it with the best headphones and electronics that you can. Let only the facts (your facts) convince you, not our posts.

Enjoy your music, live and recorded!

 

[hakunamakaka]

Older Planars suffered with treble, but now dynamics is the only area where planars may lack against something like Utopias which I greatly miss with certain music..Staging as well is presented somehow differently, at least on planars that I've tried, but it will boil down to consumer which is better

I'm really curious now how the part at 2:10 in track below sounds on NDH30. With dynamic hp's I can hear it properly, but it can slightly remind the sound of 'brrr', while with D8000 I could basically feel it with bit of tickling in my chest. To be honest I haven't heard a single dynamic headphone who can produce bass quality(not impact) to the same level as planars does, hence my interest grows. Now I basically switch between headphones depending on music genre

 

[Mike F]

So I tested my bass tracks and ran both cans balanced this time from the same amp with the hardest hitting dac I have on hand:

1. In terms of sub bass LCD-3 is clearly a notch above NDH30, as you have correctly stated - LCD-3 is gut shaking, where as NDH30 is more of nice feel
2. In terms of mid bass, I think both are still close, with perhaps LCD-3 being 10% better.
3. In terms of visceral impact, I think both are again very close with LCD-3 being a few % better.
4. Bass definition is actually slightly better on NDH30 in the mid and upper bass. There is not much definition in the sub bass as that's more of a "gut reaction" (pun fully intended)

Edit: NDH30 is a highly front dampened headphone (probably one of the most front-dampened cans I have ever seen) so there is a lot of acoustical impedance (not electrical impedance) that's limiting the driver movement. I believe a high current amp is actually required to get the best bass out of NDH30.

When talking of small perceived differences in the sound of headphones, in this case the bass, I do wonder how much sample variation between units, coupled with differences in source/DAC/amp, not to mention individual hearing, affects one individuals perception of a headphone compared to someone else who has 'the same headphone'.

I've always observed sample variation between headphones. When I bought a second pair of NDH 30s I reported that they were good (not faulty) and I couldn't detect any difference on a quick listen. Well, that was just a quick listen. I do now hear some differences and have formed a preference for one of them (the original good one) which is consistent. I will send the second pair back. I blind test myself by mixing the two pairs up with my eyes closed so that I genuinely don't know which is which, and them I listen to some tracks A/Bing them. I can consistently tell one from the other - close as they are. One of the most easily discernible differences between them is that the one I prefer has slightly more bass presence. It also seems slightly deeper, but that could be an illusion. Nonetheless, they are slightly different, and consistently discernibly so. I found exactly the same thing (discernible sample variation) with two HD650, four HD660S, three SRH840 and two SRH1540 BTW. The differences, although small could I'm sure, in combination with the factors I previously mentioned, lead to different impressions of any given aspect of a headphones sound by different people with different unit samples. AND, FWIW, I expect that the S2 is exactly the same when it comes to sample variation, no matter what Sennheiser may say..... and that's not a dig at that headphone.

 

[hakunamakaka]

On another matter, I wish to express some thoughts. I can see what was the effect of the NDH 30 popping continuously in the HD-660S2 thread, to an annoying degree for some, especially those who have never listen to it. It is an understandable reaction to express disturbance and dislike. But I think that it is not only that it doesn't let the HD-660S breathe in its own thread. It is also something more serious: Many people have spent hundreds or thousands of hours reading, searching or comparing headphones, have spent thousands of dollars/euros to obtain the best possible headphone sound or the sound that they really like. Reading that a headphone of little more than $/€ 600 could give all that they desired or more, can be very disturbing or sound outrageous because it cancels much of the previous efforts and expenses. Or even worst: beliefs. It is not easy to digest or accept. Even those who speak much for the qualities of the NDH 30, have approached it with some (or much) suspicion and disbelief (me included). But then, after the initial surprise, careful comparisons started to reveal much more sound quality and maturity than ever anticipated - at this "very low" price. Moreover, those who want to buy their first (and possibly their only) top-of-the-line headphone, feel insecure or that there is a great risk, if their hard-earned money are spent to a headphone that may only bring them half-way close to their target. They may need the "safety" of spending more than enough.

Endless arguments are of not much use in the case of this headphone. If its "supporters" are right it is not easy to prove it with words and posts. For the NDH 30, the only way to see the bold and unexpected advancement that it brings for "offensively little money" is to listen to it and compare it - but with the best sources possible (it is not at all power hungry but it will let any high-end source/dac/amp shine).

Another thing is that this price may provoke a "war" of impressions from other manufacturers and affected dealers, since it demonstrates clearly that there is no need for multi-thousand dollar products to obtain a rare and very admirable sound quality. This may prove to be an even more difficult problem than suspicion or disbelief. Only if one or two more manufacturers decide to offer similar quality at similar prices, we may get rid of the hype in headphone prices that is so intense during the last 5-10 years. Not an easy task though, because headphones are the "new cables" now. Prices will go as high as (ignorant) buyers are ready to pay.

Enough talking, I cannot stretch anything else more than this: Do not buy that "rude" headphone, just try to listen/compare it with the best headphones and electronics that you can. Let only the facts (your facts) convince you, not our posts.

Enjoy your music, live and recorded!

The problem with NDH30 is that I did not found where to audition them. totally in the camp that price doesn't always relate to a better sound, but budget kings as hd600/650 did not impress me at all, most likely as I tried them after owning Utopias. The heck with it I'm pulling the trigger to see what ndh30 is about, if I can pull flagship performance for 600eur you'll see a happy camper here

 

[Mike F]

My point is, isn't the HE1 referenced to live music, and that's the selling point?
Never heard them.. Get out there folks and hear live music as often as you can, you'll see just how artificial the sound of headphones and home audio systems are...

So true, and good advice. This is the main reason (apart from a lack of funds ) why most professional musicians are not interested in Hi-Fi.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I should end this diatribe by mentioning that I've owned some of the best planars out there - including the SR-009S - and enjoyed many of them - just not as much as the best dynamics.

The SR 009S is not a planar. It’s an e-stat. Those are completely different technologies with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[jamesjames]

The SR 009S is not a planar. It’s an e-stat. Those are completely different technologies with different strengths and weaknesses.

Planar means a planar membrane, whether activated by voltage charge or magnetic field. Hence my reference above to planar - whether orthodynamic or electrostatic. The resonance issue relates to control of a large planar surface, whether orthodynamic or electrostatic.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Planar means a planar membrane, whether activated by voltage charge or magnetic field. Hence my reference above to planar - whether orthodynamic or electrostatic. The resonance issue relates to control of a large planar surface, whether orthodynamic or electrostatic.

Well you’re wrong. They’re 2 completely different technologies with different strengths and weaknesses. They have completely different amping systems and requirements. They have completely different impedance and resistance.

So you using them interchangeably is a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the technology.

 

[kman1211]

Well you’re wrong. They’re 2 completely different technologies with different strengths and weaknesses. They have completely different amping systems and requirements. They have completely different impedance and resistance.

So you using them interchangeably is a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the technology.

He’s not wrong in the statement you’re replying to. Yes they have very different operating principles, but doesn’t mean his statement about both estats and orthos being planars is wrong as it’s a true statement.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

He’s not wrong in the statement you’re replying to. Yes they have very different operating principles, but doesn’t mean his statement about both estats and orthos being planars is wrong as it’s a true statement.

He was talking about pros and cons of planars vs dynamics earlier and then conflating those with estats as if they’re the same technology. They’re not and they have different strengths, weaknesses, and amp requirements. A distinction needs to be made in that regard.

Nobody with any knowledge of headphones talks about estats and planar magnetic headphones interchangeably.

 

[ThEvil0nE]

Older Planars suffered with treble, but now dynamics is the only area where planars may lack against something like Utopias which I greatly miss with certain music..Staging as well is presented somehow differently, at least on planars that I've tried, but it will boil down to consumer which is better

I'm really curious now how the part at 2:10 in track below sounds on NDH30. With dynamic hp's I can hear it properly, but it can slightly remind the sound of 'brrr', while with D8000 I could basically feel it with bit of tickling in my chest. To be honest I haven't heard a single dynamic headphone who can produce bass quality(not impact) to the same level as planars does, hence my interest grows. Now I basically switch between headphones depending on music genre

I was into those types of music when I was into car audio in the 80s-90s, of course I strived for SQ and went with US made amps and processors, German drivers, Japanese HU. The best way I could describe the bass on that that track is one that's produced from a very well driven sealed subwoofer, well defined "musical" clean articulate deep reaching solid kidney massaging bass. Very satisfying on the NDH 30.

My reference for sound is string quartets. I worked for a large company in the 80's and 90's, which had an internal group of musicians. I've heard them play many quartets by the best composers and will never forget the LIVE sound of string instruments... Nothing came as close to my stax sigma's headphone.. I'm sure the latest stax are even better, and I will eventually buy one.

This is the same with anyone that is exposed to live and or that are musicians or has spent time recording in studios. It will greatly influence how they perceive and prefer their speaker/headphones to sound. The most close to accurate and real sounding cymbal strikes I've found is on the NDH 30. How it's hit and where it's hit is goose bump inducingly life like, real.

 

[kman1211]

He was talking about pros and cons of planars vs dynamics earlier and then conflating those with estats as if they’re the same technology. They’re not and they have different strengths, weaknesses, and amp requirements. A distinction needs to be made in that regard.

That makes sense, sorry didn’t get the full context. While they are related technologies in many ways their operating principles are very different and I never personally found estats and orthos all that similar. All three of those of those technologies have their strengths and weaknesses.

Something a lot of people may not know is dynamics are more costly to initially make your own in house driver due to higher tooling/equipment costs. That’s why many first getting into dynamic headphones often use off the shelf or custom ordered drivers from oems. Whereas you’re more likely to see companies make their own planardyamics or electrostatic drivers due to lower initial investment costs.