[Mike F]

Would you risk to share any preliminary impressions?

That , for the money, the HD660S is an outstanding headphone?

 

[Rob80b]

That , for the money, the HD660S is an outstanding headphone?

Considering it's direct line of descendant, the HD580 (released 1993), which was/is a no fuss honest headphone from almost 30 years ago, one would hope so. (no sense reinventing the wheel, just tweak it a bit) : )
The Neumann which although are probably using a modified derivative of the HD600 series driver are quite a physically different headphone, but coming from a Professional Audio company, the goal as a monitoring device is basically the same as that required from the HD580 when they were introduced, or at least one would think so.

 

[Mike F]

OK, Here goes. I'm not going to attempt a full review...... these are just my personal opinions and impressions based on a fairly short time with the NDH 20 and NDH 30. FWIW, and as something of a spoiler, I will say that having given them as good a listen as I've had time for I re-read the SOS reviews on both headphones and would say that they match my experience and impressions very well.

Some background. I'm a 59 year old professional musician will a life-long interest in Hi-Fi. That means that A. my hearing is not what it was in my twenties, and B. My 'ear' is well trained (hopefully! ). I have a small home studio which I use mostly for recording myself for other peoples projects and a main listening system in a purpose built room. The monitors in that system are ATC SCM100ASL's. Listening tests were done with a Marantz SA-10 and Lehmann Audio Linear SE headphone amplifier, or Sennheiser HDVD800 from a Mac with lossless files.

It seems to me that Neumann has created these headphones as professional tools without compromise. Neither headphone was created for the consumer market or with any thought of satisfying audiophiles. That means, apart from anything else, that neither of them sound as 'good' as some 'Hi-Fi' headphones that I have or have heard - at least in some respects. But, what they do well is provide the professional user with exactly what they need.

The build quality of these headphones is better than anything I've seen. Not as pretty as some Hi-end hp's, but more like a German tank! Aluminium, stainless steel, and good quality hard rubber give the feeling that these are meant to withstand harsh studio use. The HD 6xx series feel like toys by comparison although, given that they are completely modular in construction and that the average 12-year-old could take one apart and rebuild it, that is no real criticism as repairing them is easy.

The NDH 30's are considerably more comfortable than the 20's. That's because one of the main design demands of the 20's, being closed back, is isolation. I've bought the 20's to use in the show I'm playing at the moment where all the musicians have to use hp's for monitoring and click track. I borrowed some from the bass player and used them for a few shows. The isolation was WAY better than the DT 770 pro's (provided by the theatre), but that means that the ear pads have to be quite hard, dense, and inflexible. But, they're not made for comfort - they're made for isolation. The 30's are much more comfortable with larger, soft ear-pads. The headband is still not the best (except that it will last for ever) but I would still say that (for me) they are more comfortable than the HD800's but less comfortable than the HD6xx.

The 20's are SO detailed and resolving and I heard things in the show that I'd never heard before. Listening to music OTOH is another story. The suck out around 2kH is not disastrous, but I'd much rather listen to music on my Shure 1540's which are much flatter and have an almost equally good bass (albeit with some slight distortion). The 30's are if anything even more resolving (and have even lower distortion) and are much better for listening to music, not least because the frequency response seems to be much flatter. However, resolution is only one aspect of a transducer and this is where the rubber hits the road.

Headphones and speakers reproduce music in a different way. I know this is well known to most people here and I don't mean to sound condescending, but I think it's worth repeating, given Neumann's claim that the NDH 30 is tuned to sound like one of their studio monitors. Also, Hi-Fi speakers and studio monitors don't sound the same - they are made for different purposes and markets. The same with Hi-end headphones and true studio headphones. The bottom line is that the NDH 30's will not always be the best choice for listening to music. They are brutally honest monitors with superior resolution, designed to listen to music in an analytical and critical manner.

These are my impressions of the NDH 30's compared to the Sennhierser HD660S and HD800. I listened to a variety of music from Pop to classical to jazz to electronica, but I used Jan Garbarek's Visible World as a real reference as this is a recording which I know intimately, has acoustic instruments which I'm very familiar with, has lots of intricate and detailed musical passages, and is exquisitely recorded.

The NDH 30's are more resolving than the HD660S and have better extended bass, good soundstage width but less soundstage depth and possibly height. They are also basically brighter, but are never too bright or harsh. They are more demanding to listen to in that respect however. The HD660S is very engaging but resolving at the same time, and, like all of the HD6xx has fantastic mids. There's a sense of naturalness of space and instrumental timbre which is sometimes more appealing, and possibly more accurate, than the NDH 30. However, for the bottom line on that, see below!

Compared to the HD800 they are, superficially at least, less resolving. It may be that all of the detail is there but it just isn't as obvious as it is with the HD800. However, the HD800 has always seemed hyper detailed to me. It's incredibly impressive and somewhat addictive, but has never sounded very natural to me. The same with the soundstage. Is the soundstage better on the HD800 - yes! Is it as natural - I would say no. Instrument separation and placement is excellent on the NHD 30, as it is on the HD800. Again with instrumental timbre, the NDH 30 seems to be more natural (realistic) than the HD800. The bass on the HD800 seems as good to me as it is on the NDH 30 (as extended and detailed), but the balance is so different that it comes across as inferior. However, I think it's just less prominent.

The bottom line, however, is that the NDH 30's sound far more like my ATC's than any other headphone I have, and that, for me at least, is the most telling observation.

Sorry for the long and rambling post. I'm sure there're many things which I have omitted and will no doubt add in future posts, but I've run out of time for now.

 

[Menkau-ra]

That , for the money, the HD660S is an outstanding headphone?

I love HD650 and HD8xx. They are super enjoying when you have a proper tube amp like Folkwangr. HD660S to me are better version of HD650: better low end and more trebles. But HD660S to me are extremely dry and lifeless on everything I've tried. I can't listen to HD660S at all.

 

[Rob80b]

OK, Here goes. I'm not going to attempt a full review...... .......

Sorry for the long and rambling post. I'm sure there're many things which I have omitted and will no doubt add in future posts, but I've run out of time for now.

Thanks for taking the time Mike...the NDH 30 are still on my short list....just need a(nother) good excuse as to why I need another pair of headphones. : )

 

[Mike F]

Thanks for taking the time Mike...the NDH 30 are still on my short list....just need a(nother) good excuse as to why I need another pair of headphones. : )

Rob, if you have the HD800S, you don’t, but you should try them anyway! Thing is that there are many better headphones out there, but I suspect that there are very few that have as little to criticise about them as the NDH 30 has.

 

[Mike F]

And yes, as far as any headphone can, they sound like good studio monitors.

 

[Rob80b]

Rob, if you have the HD800S, you don’t, but you should try them anyway! Thing is that there are many better headphones out there, but I suspect that there are very few that have as little to criticise about them as the NDH 30 has.

Even after more than 7 years I have an odd relation with my HD800S, almost an enigma..still haven't decided if I like them or not. lol
The HD660S I can throw on any time and with the AKG K872, for a closed back headphone the soundscape can be quite immersive IMHO and allows me walk through the performance from the closest to the farthest elements, quite often I feel I'm getting a live feed and currently my favourite when I want to sit down and listen. The biggest problem I have with the 800S is that with some recordings I get the sensation there is a transparent dome between me and the music, the soundstage although quite large has difficulty captivating intimate recordings, doesn't appear to reach out, if that makes any sense, almost a one trick pony.

 

[headstef]

OK, Here goes. I'm not going to attempt a full review...... these are just my personal opinions and impressions based on a fairly short time with the NDH 20 and NDH 30. FWIW, and as something of a spoiler, I will say that having given them as good a listen as I've had time for I re-read the SOS reviews on both headphones and would say that they match my experience and impressions very well.

Some background. I'm a 59 year old professional musician will a life-long interest in Hi-Fi. That means that A. my hearing is not what it was in my twenties, and B. My 'ear' is well trained (hopefully! ). I have a small home studio which I use mostly for recording myself for other peoples projects and a main listening system in a purpose built room. The monitors in that system are ATC SCM100ASL's. Listening tests were done with a Marantz SA-10 and Lehmann Audio Linear SE headphone amplifier, or Sennheiser HDVD800 from a Mac with lossless files.

It seems to me that Neumann has created these headphones as professional tools without compromise. Neither headphone was created for the consumer market or with any thought of satisfying audiophiles. That means, apart from anything else, that neither of them sound as 'good' as some 'Hi-Fi' headphones that I have or have heard - at least in some respects. But, what they do well is provide the professional user with exactly what they need.

The build quality of these headphones is better than anything I've seen. Not as pretty as some Hi-end hp's, but more like a German tank! Aluminium, stainless steel, and good quality hard rubber give the feeling that these are meant to withstand harsh studio use. The HD 6xx series feel like toys by comparison although, given that they are completely modular in construction and that the average 12-year-old could take one apart and rebuild it, that is no real criticism as repairing them is easy.

The NDH 30's are considerably more comfortable than the 20's. That's because one of the main design demands of the 20's, being closed back, is isolation. I've bought the 20's to use in the show I'm playing at the moment where all the musicians have to use hp's for monitoring and click track. I borrowed some from the bass player and used them for a few shows. The isolation was WAY better than the DT 770 pro's (provided by the theatre), but that means that the ear pads have to be quite hard, dense, and inflexible. But, they're not made for comfort - they're made for isolation. The 30's are much more comfortable with larger, soft ear-pads. The headband is still not the best (except that it will last for ever) but I would still say that (for me) they are more comfortable than the HD800's but less comfortable than the HD6xx.

The 20's are SO detailed and resolving and I heard things in the show that I'd never heard before. Listening to music OTOH is another story. The suck out around 2kH is not disastrous, but I'd much rather listen to music on my Shure 1540's which are much flatter and have an almost equally good bass (albeit with some slight distortion). The 30's are if anything even more resolving (and have even lower distortion) and are much better for listening to music, not least because the frequency response seems to be much flatter. However, resolution is only one aspect of a transducer and this is where the rubber hits the road.

Headphones and speakers reproduce music in a different way. I know this is well known to most people here and I don't mean to sound condescending, but I think it's worth repeating, given Neumann's claim that the NDH 30 is tuned to sound like one of their studio monitors. Also, Hi-Fi speakers and studio monitors don't sound the same - they are made for different purposes and markets. The same with Hi-end headphones and true studio headphones. The bottom line is that the NDH 30's will not always be the best choice for listening to music. They are brutally honest monitors with superior resolution, designed to listen to music in an analytical and critical manner.

These are my impressions of the NDH 30's compared to the Sennhierser HD660S and HD800. I listened to a variety of music from Pop to classical to jazz to electronica, but I used Jan Garbarek's Visible World as a real reference as this is a recording which I know intimately, has acoustic instruments which I'm very familiar with, has lots of intricate and detailed musical passages, and is exquisitely recorded.

The NDH 30's are more resolving than the HD660S and have better extended bass, good soundstage width but less soundstage depth and possibly height. They are also basically brighter, but are never too bright or harsh. They are more demanding to listen to in that respect however. The HD660S is very engaging but resolving at the same time, and, like all of the HD6xx has fantastic mids. There's a sense of naturalness of space and instrumental timbre which is sometimes more appealing, and possibly more accurate, than the NDH 30. However, for the bottom line on that, see below!

Compared to the HD800 they are, superficially at least, less resolving. It may be that all of the detail is there but it just isn't as obvious as it is with the HD800. However, the HD800 has always seemed hyper detailed to me. It's incredibly impressive and somewhat addictive, but has never sounded very natural to me. The same with the soundstage. Is the soundstage better on the HD800 - yes! Is it as natural - I would say no. Instrument separation and placement is excellent on the NHD 30, as it is on the HD800. Again with instrumental timbre, the NDH 30 seems to be more natural (realistic) than the HD800. The bass on the HD800 seems as good to me as it is on the NDH 30 (as extended and detailed), but the balance is so different that it comes across as inferior. However, I think it's just less prominent.

The bottom line, however, is that the NDH 30's sound far more like my ATC's than any other headphone I have, and that, for me at least, is the most telling observation.

Sorry for the long and rambling post. I'm sure there're many things which I have omitted and will no doubt add in future posts, but I've run out of time for now.

After a little more than a month with the Neumann NDH 30 I have to say that this is a very accurate review, at least as I hear these headphones. We must congratulate and thank you for your effort. However, inspite of the very high resolving ability of the headphone I find it very easy to listen with every good recording and surprisingly with many mediocre ones too. Neumann have achieved to make an uncompromised monitor with a highly musical character. I think the key for this is the very well balanced, nearly flat and full frequency response which is hard to find in any headphone "audiophile" or studio.
About detail and resolution, it would be very interesting to compare NDH 30 with HD 800 at the same level of treble energy by EQing the first to higher treble or EQing the second to lower treble. This could demonstrate if the HD 800 realy is a more detailed headphone (as expected) or it is mainly the raised treble that offers the extra detail.

 

[headstef]

Even after more than 7 years I have an odd relation with my HD800S, almost an enigma..still haven't decided if I like them or not. lol
The HD660S I can throw on any time and with the AKG K872, for a closed back headphone the soundscape can be quite immersive IMHO and allows me walk through the performance from the closest to the farthest elements, quite often I feel I'm getting a live feed and currently my favourite when I want to sit down and listen. The biggest problem I have with the 800S is that with some recordings I get the sensation there is a transparent dome between me and the music, the soundstage although quite large has difficulty captivating intimate recordings, doesn't appear to reach out, if that makes any sense, almost a one trick pony.

I get the same feeling of intimacy with the NDH 30 as you describe with the K872. I feel like I am present in front of the performers sensing every movement of them, hearing every nuance and micro-sound. Oddly enough, this amount of detail instead of distracting me, it captivates and indulges me. Maybe because it comes with a very natural way. It is a completely new level of enjoyment compared to the HD 650 (which I highly enjoy too). There is a big downside however: I am becoming antisocial in my family devoting more time to listening with headphones than I did before. I'll have to take care of that!

 

[Mike F]

Even after more than 7 years I have an odd relation with my HD800S, almost an enigma..still haven't decided if I like them or not. lol
The HD660S I can throw on any time and with the AKG K872, for a closed back headphone the soundscape can be quite immersive IMHO and allows me walk through the performance from the closest to the farthest elements, quite often I feel I'm getting a live feed and currently my favourite when I want to sit down and listen. The biggest problem I have with the 800S is that with some recordings I get the sensation there is a transparent dome between me and the music, the soundstage although quite large has difficulty captivating intimate recordings, doesn't appear to reach out, if that makes any sense, almost a one trick pony.

That's a brilliant description, Rob! Unfortunately I will probably never be able to 'un-hear' that now!

I feel exactly the same about my HD800. After many years I still can't decide whether I like them! If that's the case I can highly recommend the NHD 30. It gives you all of the resolution of the HD800(S) with a much more natural soundscape and timbre.

 

[Mike F]

After a little more than a month with the Neumann NDH 30 I have to say that this is a very accurate review, at least as I hear these headphones. We must congratulate and thank you for your effort. However, inspite of the very high resolving ability of the headphone I find it very easy to listen with every good recording and surprisingly with many mediocre ones too. Neumann have achieved to make an uncompromised monitor with a highly musical character. I think the key for this is the very well balanced, nearly flat and full frequency response which is hard to find in any headphone "audiophile" or studio.
About detail and resolution, it would be very interesting to compare NDH 30 with HD 800 at the same level of treble energy by EQing the first to higher treble or EQing the second to lower treble. This could demonstrate if the HD 800 realy is a more detailed headphone (as expected) or it is mainly the raised treble that offers the extra detail.

Thank you for your kind words. I thought your review was better written(!) but I did my best in the time I had. I totally agree with the highlighted sentence.

Comparing the NDH 30 and HD 800 in the way you describe would indeed be interesting. I strongly suspect that there would be very little difference in actual resolution and that the majority (if not all) of the extra detail on the HD800 is simply due to the raised treble - particularly the infamous 6kHz spike.

Talking of which I have to tell you something very curious. As a musician who is concerned about their hearing I have had mine tested frequently over the last ten years or so, and I know very well where the losses are. I have the typical 'musicians dip' in the high frequencies around 6-8kHz. Now you would think that in that case headphones with elevated treble like the HD800 would be perfect for me - the raised treble would compensate for my hearing dip, that the elevation in the headphone and the dip in my hearing would more or less cancel each other out and that I would perceive the headphones treble as flat(ish). Well, I have to tell you that it just doesn't work anything like that! I still perceive the upper frequencies, particularly 6kHz as too hot on the HD800, and indeed I generally prefer headphones with a more laid back treble, such as the HD660S and SHR1540. The treble on the NDH30 seems to be very well judged to me. Enough energy up there for the great detail retrieval and resolution to be clearly audible, but not so much as to make them uncomfortable or unnatural. How I can still accurately (or so it seems) perceive levels of high frequency sounds is beyond my understanding, but I think that the brain is amazing at compensating for specific losses. The only thing I notice now compared to my hearing in my 20's and 30's is a loss of 'air', but the fact is that there is no actual music information much above about 8kHz and the last time I checked, my hearing topped out at about 14kHz.

 

[headstef]

That's a brilliant description, Rob! Unfortunately I will probably never be able to 'un-hear' that now!

I feel exactly the same about my HD800. After many years I still can't decide whether I like them! If that's the case I can highly recommend the NHD 30. It gives you all of the resolution of the HD800(S) with a much more natural soundscape and timbre.

This is a bold claim but probably it reflects the reality. Also, it demonstrates the differences in pricing and marketing between professional and "audiophile" gear. I can't avoid thinking that if the exact NHD 30 was launched as "Sennheiser HD 850S" and was priced at € 2.000+ it would be a huge success among audiophiles. Maybe we would read rave reviews in commercial media and sites about how Sennheiser finally made what everyone has been asking for years: A successor to the HD 800S with more deep bass, tamed high frequencies and much of the musicality of the HD 650. (Or a significant upgrade from the HD 650 with the resolution of the HD 800S without its overexposed high frequencies).
Time will tell if I am going to far. It is true that I listened to the HD 800 (non "S") many years ago but its unnatural balance didn't let me concentrate to its strong virtues then. I intend to compare the NDH 30 and HD 800S when I am given an opportunity.

 

[Rob80b]

.............If that's the case I can highly recommend the NHD 30. It gives you all of the resolution of the HD800(S) with a much more natural soundscape and timbre.

My listening session with the NDH 30 hinted at that but the the setup and environment where not quite ideal, in fact quite far from it so your observations are promising.
In relation to the base base I find the HD800 could learn a lesson or 2 from my K872, keep in mind the AKG are closed back....any more observations on top of "The bass on the HD800 seems as good to me as it is on the NDH 30 (as extended and detailed), but the balance is so different that it comes across as inferior."....the HD630VB are spoiling me. lol

A few challenging tracks here.
https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/8801deff-f577-438b-a11a-873328e43310

 

[Mike F]

I forgot to mention the one thing that I don’t like about the NDH 30’s!
When I first put them on directly after the 20’s (I was giving them a bit of burn in together - I’m not a great advocate, but I think things do settle down in the first few hours or so) I thought I had a defective pair. There was a very obvious channel imbalance, the RH channel being louder than the LH. I thought that I must have failed to connect the cable to the headphone correctly, so I took the cable out, cleaned the connector (just in case) reinserted the cable and put them back on. Slightly better but not right. I did the next obvious thing - I took them off and reversed them on my head. The louder channel reversed. I wasn’t too worried as I can return them and I just left them to burn in some more. Next time they seemed fine, but the next time again not! I eventually realised that even a small misplacement forward or backward on the head results in a loss or gain of mids and treble that I perceived as channel imbalance. It’s that obvious. I predict that Sonarworks won’t like them for this reason. (Please prove me wrong, @RudeWolf ). But there it is - if you don’t have the drivers placed exactly the same relative to your ears they basically don’t work! But when you do.......!