[FullBright1]

@Eneco - This is exactly what i wrote in the focal listen pro thread... mids drawn back which gives a lot of room for a wide and somewhat artificial soundstage while taking all the energy and edge off of guitars (you really notice that bein a guitar player) and similar voiced instruments. While currently listening to the AKG K712 Pro i thought the NDH 20 would solve my problem of finding a truly neutral closed back headphone. Well, maybe yours are faulty. Did you buy them via Thomann? Damn...

Well, interesting.
Im a professional guitar player, among other things.
I own about 12 custom made acoustics, and probably 8 high end electrics.
I just received, yesterday, a custom made, OOO (Triple 0), Short Scale, created for me by a great Luthier out of Nashville named Doug Spencer who has created many instruments for various "Country Music Stars".
The guitar is made with Highly Figured Australian Blackwood, ( Looks like Koa), has a Mastergrade Englemann top on it, and i chose EVO Gold Frets for the fret wire and had the guitar bound in Ebony.
So, you know, i play a bit of guitar, and i own the Neumann's, and what you are describing is in the wrong context, Enn Jott.
And i think i understand your issue with them, and with the other poster who can't quit love their sound, as of yet.
The issue is, these are not created for Audiophile listening, as their 1st reason to exist..... And so, many who buy these, do not understand this, and have not really considered that they are designed to be very very FLAT, regarding their frequency response, and that is why some are going to write about """missing mids, rolled off treble, cuppy sound,""" ect, and that is in fact their reality to them, because they didnt realize what FLAT really sounds like, and when it does not sound like their particular normal listening devices which are NOT FLAT Freq headphones, they are going to have to ither adjust to them, or send them back.
The Neumann's will never sound like whatever headphones you are using, as your headphones are not Flat Frequency, and your headphones that you love are NOT DESIGNED as tools for monitoring, mixing, and mastering, music.
So, if you dont understand this, and you buy them, you will think they sound "lacking this, ", "cuppy that"....or whatever it is that you think they do which sounds nothing like the headphones you are using that are designed for a different purpose and submit/create a completely different frequency response and toneality.

See, one of the main issues with so called "audiophiles", who buy headphones, is that they first of all, dont really want "flat frequency", they just think they do, because they read somewhere that this is what is best. They have been led to believe that "flat" is "natural" and "natural" is "audiophile".
However, the reality is.....a truly flat frequency sound, coming from headphones, is anything but pretty....its not. So, understand that "pretty" has to be designed to sound pretty".......whereas Flat Frequency its a type of sound that seems to be missing something., and its not what all other headphones sound like at all.
The Neumann's sound great, but "great" in the context of FLAT Frequency, like a good studio monitor, and this sound is not what you are use to READER, as your headphones, your favorites, are not producing a flat frequency, so, when you hear headphones that do, you just might go....."yuck"...."berk"...."omg"......
So, to decide if you are going to love these, you have to stop comparing them with your others, as no other headphones you own, are designed as a Flat Frequency Headphone Music Monitoring System.
This means, you have to only use the Neumann's for a few days, so that you ears forget to compare them with what you are usually wearing, and then, and only then, after some time spent letting your brain adjust your ears to them, will you know what they really sound like, and if you love them or not.

 

[Eneco]

First of all, the Shure Headphones you are comparing them to, are really bright.
The Neumann's are not really bright, and are designed with the Mids as their fulcrum and the other frequencies are balanced beside them.
So, they will sound nothing like the Shures, or Beyers, or AKG, or Audio Tech, or any Headphone design that is "bright".

Another thing you might try, is changing whatever you are driving them with.......use something else, as perhaps you might be experiencing a really mismatched gear situation.
Another thing to do, is stop listening to anything else for a day or 2 and just use the Neumann's.
Stop comparing them, as you are not allowing the Neumann's to acclimate themselves to your hearing...
Your brain is trained by the gear you are use to hearing, so, anything new , is at first going to sound a bit odd, as its a new experience you are hearing...

If you are still not loving them after 4-5 days, then send them back.
Not every headphone works for everyone, but, regarding monitoring, the Shures are bright, and you might be negatively reacting to a sound coming from the Neumann's that is so different from the 840s.
Also, the Neumann's are not going to sound like the speakers you are use to hearing...
So, its perhaps a case of too much comparing......and not enough wearing...
But at the end of the day, don't keep them, if you dont love them, but give them a few days of only using them, to know for certain.

Have fun...

Thank you very much for your input.

Yes, the Shures are bright, but I thought "linear" bright. According to the frequency response they are somewhat flat in the mids. Furthermore the mids sound exactly like they do on my monitors. And by design a studio monitor should show me the sound in its true nature as they are designed for this exact purpose. Of course I know that there is a huge variety in terms of sound among studio monitors too, but nevertheless my understanding of a good studio headphone was, that it should come close to the sound of studio monitors. As with the NDH 20 being from the same company as my monitors, I thought they share the same sound philosophy and would be more alike.

i did change the preamp, but the sound is the same. Maybe you are right and it is a psychoacoustic thing as I'm so used to the sound of my Shures. I really wanted to replace them, as the bass is weak and their responsiveness to impulses is low, but with the lack of the mids the Neumanns make it really hard for me. Although they deliver in terms of bass and impulses.

@Eneco - This is exactly what i wrote in the focal listen pro thread... mids drawn back which gives a lot of room for a wide and somewhat artificial soundstage while taking all the energy and edge off of guitars (you really notice that bein a guitar player) and similar voiced instruments. While currently listening to the AKG K712 Pro i thought the NDH 20 would solve my problem of finding a truly neutral closed back headphone. Well, maybe yours are faulty. Did you buy them via Thomann? Damn...

Yes it was Thomann.

 

[Eneco]

The issue is, these are not created for Audiophile listening, as their 1st reason to exist..... And so, many who buy these, do not understand this, and have not really considered that they are designed to be very very FLAT, regarding their frequency response, and that is why some are going to write about """missing mids, rolled off treble, cuppy sound,""" ect, and that is in fact their reality to them, because they didnt realize what FLAT really sounds like, and when it does not sound like their particular normal listening devices which are NOT FLAT Freq headphones, they are going to have to ither adjust to them, or send them back.
The Neumann's will never sound like whatever headphones you are using, as your headphones are not Flat Frequency, and your headphones that you love are NOT DESIGNED as tools for monitoring, mixing, and mastering, music.
So, if you dont understand this, and you buy them, you will think they sound "lacking this, ", "cuppy that"....or whatever it is that you think they do which sounds nothing like the headphones you are using that are designed for a different purpose and submit/create a completely different frequency response and toneality.

Which brings me again back to my Neumann studio monitors. They are also designed to be flat and they HAVE the mids I'm missing with the Neumann headphones. That's the whole point I'm trying to aim at. If they are so flat, they should sound equal to the monitors (which are indeed very flat), but they don't. Whereas the Shures do in terms of the mids (the low end is totally different story though). So there must be more to that, than just the Neumanns being so flat and everything else not.

Besides, there are a lot of other brands which manufacture studio headphones and the term "studio" somewhat implicates, that they try to make them flat. I'm not saying that every "studio" labled equipment sounds flat, because it doesn't, but they overall goal is to make them flat in comparison to traditional consumer products.

 

[Enn Jott]

@FullBright1 - nice collection of guitars! while i did not understand everything you tried to say i just wanted to add that i don't own the NDH20 yet. But i can relate to what @Eneco said coming from the focals and having moved on to the AKGs. I really like Neumann monitors (but don't own them as i only invest that kind of money in road bikes haha) and i guess i'll just have to find out myself whether they are what i would want them to be or not...

Edit: I understand what @Eneco is trying to say when it comes to "flatness"...

 

[Enn Jott]

Maybe you want to give these a shot @Eneco ? Just 50€ more. And at that price point it doesn't really matter, stimmts?

 

[FullBright1]

Thank you very much for your input.

Yes, the Shures are bright, but I thought "linear" bright. According to the frequency response they are somewhat flat in the mids.

Oh, you're welcome.
Im glad to try to be informative, and helpful.
And thank you for making your decision to buy/Try the Neumann's based on my minor review.
So, i wrote, a minute ago, to Enn Jott, something to consider...., and you might read it if you are still around.
But to you.........here is what i see..
You wrote.....>"the Shures are bright, with somewhat flat mids"..
Ok.
Let me show you what i see...
Its this..
There is a million mile difference between considering midrange as flat, and comparing that idea to different headphones which are created as a "flat frequency", in TOTAL.
Ok?
The Neumann's, do not have "flat mids"....they have a totally FLAT frequency, that includes the treble, and bass, and the mids.
Its a completely different thing to have "flat mids", vs, a totally Flat frequency, across ALL Frequencies...
"flat frequency headphone", vs, a "headphone with flat midrange".
See it?
Having a headphone that offers flat mids, is only a small part of the tone of the headphones, but having a headphone sound that is ALL FLAT frequencies, and not just the mid, is an entirely different tone, sound, and sound perception.

But none of this sound math matters, if you dont love your headphones's sound.
Flat frequency does not mean a better sound, it just means its a specific type of sonic offering.
The Neumann's sound is exactly what it is, its flat.
It really is a certain type of tone, and once you are use to it, then when you hear your music, you'll hear a lot of resolution and balance, which is a good sounding headphone, but, its a different sound.
The QUAD ERA-1, are the same type of design......Nothing like a headphone usually sounds.......as the designer is trying to emulate famous Quad Speakers, using a headphone.
So, this is a totally different way to approach creating a headphone's sound.
Both are really fine, but both are not going to sound like what you are use to hearing, when you get a "new" set, and you are trying to get use to them......
These 2, are a brand new world of sonic adventure, and not everyone is going to love taking their trip.

 

[FullBright1]

@FullBright1 - nice collection of guitars! while i did not understand everything you tried to say i just wanted to add that i don't own the NDH20 yet. But i can relate to what @Eneco said coming from the focals and having moved on to the AKGs. I really like Neumann monitors (but don't own them as i only invest that kind of money in road bikes haha) and i guess i'll just have to find out myself whether they are what i would want them to be or not...

Edit: I understand what @Eneco is trying to say when it comes to "flatness"...

Thanks.
Id show you the instruments, but if i post pics here, a mod will come running and delete them.... and, they also wont let me PM with anyone, so, i can't show you the photos, privately.

I bought the Neumann's because i wanted an affordable closed headphone that i didnt hate, as i usually can't stand a closed headphone.
I also need a closed system for my work, and so, when i got them, i didnt love them at first, but grew to really admire what they are all about, and offer.
They are not perfect, as no headphone is perfect, as perfect does not exist in the literal world we live it.
But, for the price, and for what they offer, im glad i own them.
They have a different type of headphone sound......that's for certain.
Some will get it, and some will hate it.......but that's going to happen with any headphone, as you can't spend enough money to ensure you will get a sound you love.
So, roll the dice, as that is what life is all about.....

 

[Eneco]

Maybe you want to give these a shot @Eneco ? Just 50€ more. And at that price point it doesn't really matter, stimmts?

I see where you are coming from will check them out, thanks.

You wrote.....>"the Shures are bright, with somewhat flat mids"..
Ok.
Let me show you what i see...
Its this..
There is a million mile difference between considering midrange as flat, and comparing that idea to different headphones which are created as a "flat frequency", in TOTAL.
Ok?
The Neumann's, do not have "flat mids"....they have a totally FLAT frequency, that includes the treble, and bass, and the mids.
Its a completely different thing to have "flat mids", vs, a totally Flat frequency, across ALL Frequencies...
"flat frequency headphone", vs, a "headphone with flat midrange".
See it?
Having a headphone that offers flat mids, is only a small part of the tone of the headphones, but having a headphone sound that is ALL FLAT frequencies, and not just the mid, is an entirely different tone, sound, and sound perception.

And again, thank you very much for your input. You really do have a certain point of view at things that doesn't come to my mind at first, but still appeals to me. You may be right in terms of comparing headphones. The Neumanns seem to have an overall flat frequency response compared to the Shures and I should not focus on just one frequency range.

Unfortunately that doesn't explain why they sound so different from my monitors, which also have an overall very flat frequency response ...

 

[SonyFan121]

the reality is.....a truly flat frequency sound, coming from headphones, is anything but pretty....its not.

Totally agree with this. This is why I love the Sony MDR7510. A very flat sounding headphone that has a specific purpose (monitoring/mixing/mastering audio). Having said that, I do enjoy listening to music with them and also watching movies, it is their honesty that gets me.
How is the build quality of the Neumann NDH 20?
Also I think it's drivers are about the same size as Sennheiser HD600, I wonder how the NDH 20's sound signature compares to the HD600. That would be an interesting comparison.

 

[FullBright1]

Unfortunately that doesn't explain why they sound so different from my monitors, which also have an overall very flat frequency response ...

Why do headphones not sound like standing speakers?
Well, many reasons.
Different products. Different enclosures.... Different access to their sound. Different laws of physics at work....etc.
Headphones are small cups that fit on your head, and are physically and physics limited by this situation, so, designers try to create the illusion of great sound, using these small cups.
They obsess on this idea. How to DO IT BEST !
Imagine trying to create the illusion of HIFI sound, by using a small space, (2 cupa) , that are attached to someone's skull.
Really, its quite amazing that headphones can produce, literally, a better sound (listening) experience then all but the most expensive speakers being driven by the most expensive amps.
I dont think im kidding when i say that something like the HD600s are giving you, in audiophile sound value, a good $20,000 USD listening experience, if you were trying to emulate their sound using speakers and amps and players.
And it can be even better......

A Speaker, is a completely different set of sonic physics, at work.
For one thing, the room itself IS a speaker box, with a set of speakers sitting in the box.
Most listeners dont realize this, but many understand that a room shapes sound.....but they dont think of a room as a literal speaker box.
It is..
Your room is a speaker box, and it has speakers in it.... So that is 2 literal dynamics of sound at work......your speakers, and the room and how it is also a speaker box.
So, how could 2 cups on your ears, manifest anything like what standing speakers are providing, inside another speaker?
Headphones on your head, can't possibly sound like speakers in a room, so, the best you can hope for, is that a designer of a specific set of headphones can capture the essence of the perceived sound of whatever model of Speakers he's designing his headphones to try to sonically emulate.
As that is what they are supposed to "sound like", as in the case of the QUADS.

 

[FullBright1]

How is the build quality of the Neumann NDH 20?
Also I think it's drivers are about the same size as Sennheiser HD600, I wonder how the NDH 20's sound signature compares to the HD600. That would be an interesting comparison.

Build quality of the NDH 20, is about like the build quality of an Apple Macbook Pro.
Basically, the same materials regarding the cups.
And the NDH20 sound nothing like the HD600s, but in a good way.
The HD600s, which many consider the Father of " affordable audiophile headphones", are not sonically flat, or created to be used in a studio in-place of pro studio monitors.
Like all good headphones, the sound of the HD600s, is someones imagination/design/math, regarding what good sounding headphones should sound like, many years ago, when they were created.
I always appreciate the fact that the HD650s, were not an evolution or trying to "make the HD600s sound better", but were in fact created because of complaints that the HD600 didnt have enough low end thump.
So, the designers of the HD650 said.....>"ok, this one will".

I think the HD660 is the actual v2.0 of the HD600, and they tweeked it too much and it wont please that many that love its siblings.
I like it a lot because its a different Sennheiser sound.
I think Senn advertised it as the HD650 upgrade, but it sounds more like the HD600 upgrade, yet nothing like it.

The Neumann is also like this, as its just a totally different sound.
Personally, Im not an audiophile who believes there is one HolyGrail headphone., or HG headphone sound.
Some audiophiles will present the idea that because their headphones cost more then the majority can afford, then theirs must sound a lot better then yours.
Ummmmm, no....they will just sound different and offer more resolution and better pads and wires.
There is such a thing as too much resolution, which causes a fake perception.
I like wearing sonic microscopes on my ears, but, this is not necessarily the best sounding headphone(s).

Im an audiophile who loves the reason for headphones or speakers, which is, they let you hear music as presented by THEIR Particular sound signature.
Every piece of listening gear is a brand new way to hear something "fresh".
1000 sets of headphones = 1000 different ways to hear your music "a-fresh" & "anew"., and THAT is why i am an audiophile...its because i crave this type of personal musical analysis.
I like it when a set of headphones sounds both unusual and also good, as the truth is, there is no certainty regarding .."what is the best sound coming out of any device".... as its all speculation and subjective listening opinion.
There is no perfect sounding gear, regarding its ability to reproduce music in "photographic lifelike sound", so, save that $100,000 USD, as it wont buy you a sonic mirror.

Maybe the Sundara, which i dont love, are the best and most accurate headphones (sound) ever created.
Maybe the Aion C is the perfect Headphone sound.
Maybe the Quad is the sonic equivalency of "lifelike sound".
How can you know ? ?

A.) You can't.
B.) Thats good.

There is no way to accurately judge what headphones "sound just like real life", because this is an impossible thing to know, even if they could........and they can't.
Every headphone's sound is its own voice, and every set of ear's are hearing what they hear, and none of this offers any type of provable criteria.
Even a sonic graph of a headphone's sound, is inaccurate, as its not taking into account the way a head and ears and ear holes are shaping the sound before it arrives to the eardrum and the rest of the hearing structure that also shapes the sound, before, the brain interprets it.
And because your brain is not exactly like mine, you are not going to hear what i hear, and im not going to hear what you are hearing..........not exactly......

 

[SonyFan121]

Build quality of the NDH 20, is about like the build quality of an Apple Macbook Pro.
Basically, the same materials regarding the cups.
And the NDH20 sound nothing like the HD600s, but in a good way.
The HD600s, which many consider the Father of " affordable audiophile headphones", are not sonically flat, or created to be used in a studio in-place of pro studio monitors.
Like all good headphones, the sound of the HD600s, is someones imagination/design/math, regarding what good sounding headphones should sound like, many years ago, when they were created.
I always appreciate the fact that the HD650s, were not an evolution or trying to "make the HD600s sound better", but were in fact created because of complaints that the HD600 didnt have enough low end thump.
So, the designers of the HD650 said.....>"ok, this one will".

I think the HD660 is the actual v2.0 of the HD600, and they tweeked it too much and it wont please that many that love its siblings.
I like it a lot because its a different Sennheiser sound.
I think Senn advertised it as the HD650 upgrade, but it sounds more like the HD600 upgrade, yet nothing like it.

The Neumann is also like this, as its just a totally different sound.
Personally, Im not an audiophile who believes there is one HolyGrail headphone., or HG headphone sound.
Some audiophiles will present the idea that because their headphones cost more then the majority can afford, then theirs must sound a lot better then yours.
Ummmmm, no....they will just sound different and offer more resolution and better pads and wires.
There is such a thing as too much resolution, which causes a fake perception.
I like wearing sonic microscopes on my ears, but, this is not necessarily the best sounding headphone(s).

Im an audiophile who loves the reason for headphones or speakers, which is, they let you hear music as presented by THEIR Particular sound signature.
Every piece of listening gear is a brand new way to hear something "fresh".
1000 sets of headphones = 1000 different ways to hear your music "a-fresh" & "anew"., and THAT is why i am an audiophile...its because i crave this type of personal musical analysis.
I like it when a set of headphones sounds both unusual and also good, as the truth is, there is no certainty regarding .."what is the best sound coming out of any device".... as its all speculation and subjective listening opinion.
There is no perfect sounding gear, regarding its ability to reproduce music in "photographic lifelike sound", so, save that $100,000 USD, as it wont buy you a sonic mirror.

Maybe the Sundara, which i dont love, are the best and most accurate headphones (sound) ever created.
Maybe the Aion C is the perfect Headphone sound.
Maybe the Quad is the sonic equivalency of "lifelike sound".
How can you know ? ?

A.) You can't.
B.) Thats good.

There is no way to accurately judge what headphones "sound just like real life", because this is an impossible thing to know, even if they could........and they can't.
Every headphone's sound is its own voice, and every set of ear's are hearing what they hear, and none of this offers any type of provable criteria.
Even a sonic graph of a headphone's sound, is inaccurate, as its not taking into account the way a head and ears and ear holes are shaping the sound before it arrives to the eardrum and the rest of the hearing structure that also shapes the sound, before, the brain interprets it.
And because your brain is not exactly like mine, you are not going to hear what i hear, and im not going to hear what you are hearing..........not exactly......

Thanks for your reply and answer to my question. I agree and disagree (sorry) with some of the points you make. Aside from the fact that we all hear the same things slightly differently from one another and additionally all have our own little preferences and perceptions to color our opinions, from a technical standpoint I disagree that there is no such thing as a "Holy Grail" headphone or sound..I say this going by my experiences over 11 years in this hobby with multiple speakers and at least 60 different headphones. From a technical standpoint - I believe it can be achieved and in fact already exists

 

[FullBright1]

Unfortunately that doesn't explain why they sound so different from my monitors, which also have an overall very flat frequency response ...

Eneco,

Headphones can't sound like speakers.
Its physically and "physics" impossible.
Look at your speakers.
Are they headphones?....Are Headphones speakers?
These are not the same devices. A speaker is a standing box, diffusing sound into a room.
A set of headphones are small cups attached to your head, directing focused sound, NOT into the room, but directly into your ears.....
How could they possibly sound alike?

Its not possible .....

 

[Enn Jott]

Don't overexplain the obvious... he is referring to the sound signature. I know what he means, why don't you?

 

[FullBright1]

I disagree that there is no such thing as a "Holy Grail" headphone or sound..I say this going by my experiences over 11 years in this hobby with multiple speakers and at least 60 different headphones. From a technical standpoint - I believe it can be achieved and in fact already exists

You can't prove what you just wrote.
There is no way to prove that one set of speakers or one set of headphones provides a sonic photograph of what sound actually sounds like, as reality.
It other words.... There is the fact that your ears are not designed to listen to music or sound through plastic or metal or any type of fabricated cups.
Understand?
Ears, are capture devices that are designed to hear in a sort of 3D Stereo, LIVE SOUND.
LIVE SOUND is created not inside headphones, but rather all around you.
So, its impossible for a headphone to deliver what is created naturally as sound, all around you.
This is why listening to speakers, or live music, sounds nothing, NOTHING like listening to music being transformed by headphone circuitry.
Headphones, are processed sound..They are not literally accurate.
Fact......
So, if you think that headphone cups, offer truth in sound, then you are not really realizing that sound as its heard outside of headphones by you ears, sounds nothing like cups that are directing a small speaker's emulation of sound into them.
Also, if you have "tried", "previewed" but do not own more then 60 sets of headphones, then you are just getting started in this game, SF121.