Need some help from the EQ gurus.
Feb 27, 2023 at 7:34 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

AnalogEuphoria

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I Had an audiogram done recently due to hearing imbalance and here are my results

IMG_7467.jpeg


Im wondering if anyone can help me with parametric EQ settings to get a close to perfect match with my left ear (blue)

I am using Roon software so I can run procedural EQ in one channel, im just not great with setting it up.

thanks in advance for anyone willing to help.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 9:02 AM Post #2 of 15
It's hard to know how much your brain already adapted to the new normal and how much might still need to be compensated.

If you clearly feel an imbalance with a headphone, first make sure it doesn't switch side when you turn the headphone around. Because headphones also have channel imbalance, and your brain is less likely to be used to that.
If you get an imbalance when watching TV or having someone talk to you (the sound doesn't feel like it's located on target), that's a different story and I would ask medical advice (not here).

I've also encountered 2 guys on the forum who needed a small time delay rather than a frequency response compensation to perceive mono signals more centered subjectively. That seems to be pretty rare, but just in case you never seem able to get satisfied with EQ on headphones, remember that possibility.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 3:44 PM Post #3 of 15
If you're on Windows Vista or higher, there's an utility called EqualizerAPO with GraphicEQ feature which uses linear interpolation between set frequency points ... it's easy to use (just filling a table), just add those few frequency points from your plot and gain for them to match the curves.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 6:17 PM Post #4 of 15
I Had an audiogram done recently due to hearing imbalance and here are my results

IMG_7467.jpeg

Im wondering if anyone can help me with parametric EQ settings to get a close to perfect match with my left ear (blue)

I am using Roon software so I can run procedural EQ in one channel, im just not great with setting it up.

thanks in advance for anyone willing to help.
In general, you want a curve that is the opposite of the deficiency you want to correct. Here, if we consider the brown line we see from 1 KHz to 2 KHz there is a 10 dB loss but on the blue line there's a 5 db loss. So we start by boosting that range on the brown line 5 dB and see how it sounds to you in terms of matching your other ear. A similar approach would be used in other frequency segments. First you try to get the two channels at the same level to match your ears, and from there you can make corrections to make the response correct relative to the 0 point.

It's unfortunate that the loss is in this area, but the good news is that small changes will probably make an easily recognized difference.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 6:24 PM Post #5 of 15
It's hard to know how much your brain already adapted to the new normal and how much might still need to be compensated.

If you clearly feel an imbalance with a headphone, first make sure it doesn't switch side when you turn the headphone around. Because headphones also have channel imbalance, and your brain is less likely to be used to that.
If you get an imbalance when watching TV or having someone talk to you (the sound doesn't feel like it's located on target), that's a different story and I would ask medical advice (not here).

I've also encountered 2 guys on the forum who needed a small time delay rather than a frequency response compensation to perceive mono signals more centered subjectively. That seems to be pretty rare, but just in case you never seem able to get satisfied with EQ on headphones, remember that possibility.

So when I had this test done the audiologist said I don't have any hearing loss for my age (well within 20db) its just that human ears aren't perfectly balanced and its just unfortunate those differences stand out so much to me as many people wouldn't be able to notice as easily.

Thanks for the info on the time delay I have never heard of that and I should look in to it.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 6:36 PM Post #6 of 15
In general, you want a curve that is the opposite of the deficiency you want to correct. Here, if we consider the brown line we see from 1 KHz to 2 KHz there is a 10 dB loss but on the blue line there's a 5 db loss. So we start by boosting that range on the brown line 5 dB and see how it sounds to you in terms of matching your other ear. A similar approach would be used in other frequency segments. First you try to get the two channels at the same level to match your ears, and from there you can make corrections to make the response correct relative to the 0 point.

It's unfortunate that the loss is in this area, but the good news is that small changes will probably make an easily recognized difference.

I have been told its not supposed to be a perfectly flat line at 0db and all audiogram curves are different.

What the strange thing is when I EQ I notice its only really added bass frequencies that's needed on the right channel, my ear is hearing treble louder on the right ear even though the graph is showing as worse. Compensating I don't know?

Here's two other graphs that show tests with no hearing loss

hearing-level.jpg
Screenshot 2023-03-01 at 11.34.31 pm.jpeg


Maybe its an OCD thing as well and many people really don't care about perfectly balanced hearing through headphones.
 
Mar 1, 2023 at 6:39 PM Post #8 of 15
I don't think it's OCD. Hearing is not just about physical things and measuring audio is not just about charts. As @castleofargh alluded-to, there is a big influence of the brain on hearing. I think you ought to discuss it with a good audiologist who can give you an acceptable explanation of how your hearing which you describe lines up with the charts they're generating. It seems like that has to be resolved. Probably the more description you can provide about what you hear as opposed to what they measure that you hear, will help resolve this :)
 
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Mar 1, 2023 at 6:51 PM Post #9 of 15
I don't think it's OCD. Hearing is not just about physical things and measuring audio is not just about charts. As @castleofargh alluded-to, there is a big influence of the brain on hearing. I think you ought to discuss it with a good audiologist who can give you an acceptable explanation of how your hearing which you describe lines up with the charts they're generating. It seems like that has to be resolved. Probably the more description you can provide about what you hear as opposed to what they measure that you hear, will help resolve this :)

I did have a good talk with him after the test about using headphones and what im hearing, he told me everything is normal so not to worry and I could try and compensate with software which lead to me making this thread. I will keep trying with small amounts of EQ in specific areas im just not great at it.
 
Mar 2, 2023 at 6:39 AM Post #10 of 15
I did have a good talk with him after the test about using headphones and what im hearing, he told me everything is normal so not to worry and I could try and compensate with software which lead to me making this thread. I will keep trying with small amounts of EQ in specific areas im just not great at it.
I understand that from their point of view you're in the normal range. But if you are not happy, they still have work to do in helping you hear the way you want. At least that is my back-seat driver opinion :)
 
Mar 2, 2023 at 10:36 AM Post #12 of 15
How does the brain adapt? Do you feel like you hear normally but don't?
As far as it can, the brain recalibrates just about everything all the time without us noticing. Some things are done in minutes, some may take a month or more depending on the magnitude of change or how unusual it is (for the brain, normal only means it often happens, nothing more). And of course, there is a point where some issues are so big that the brain just can't hide them from us. It's not an audio thing, we have constant recalibration for all our senses. If you wear colored glasses for a while, you'll slowly start "seeing" most of the colors as if not tainted by the glasses. And when you later take off the glasses, for a short time you see weird colors.
When you get in a room, initially the amount of reverb can be massive and very noticeable, but if you remain in the room long enough, the brain will understand what portion of the sound is room reverb and lower the amount we consciously perceive (it's guessed that we do that to help stay vigilant and better focus on the might-be-relevant sounds signaling a danger). Subjectively, it just feels like we get used to it, and we usually don't even think about the reverb of a given room (maybe if you sing in the shower you do^_^, because you introduce a very clear marker that you know all too well, your own voice).
At a very slow level, our ears "grow" over the years. And if you use IEMs that go deeps, they will stretch your ear canals. But you wouldn't notice a change of sound like that because it's progressive, and the brain has plenty of time and references to adjust to the new normal.
When you get a new headphone, it's the same thing. You've been using a headphone for a long time, there has been some habituation. When you get a new one, it takes a while to get used to it, and a little longer because of how different it is from the previous one we were used to already. This phenomenon is very clear, but off course it's not reaching the point where all headphones end up sounding the same. That's too much for the brain. But finding a little bump in the frequency response less annoying after a few days of use, getting more used to the different amount of isolation from the headphone, ending up feeling the bass even if it's 10dB below what the last one had relative to midrange, those are things the brain usually handles well with time.
A more peculiar case, if you spend a really long time using a headphone that has a really unmistakable channel imbalance, that will never completely go away. But if you almost exclusively use that headphone to watch TV, over time, the sound will subjectively align with the TV (this one might take months!). Some work is fully automated, and some work kind of follows a narrative that the brain believes. When it comes to sound and vision, basically every brain will trust what it sees over what it hears if the 2 disagree. So in the long term at least, a visual anchor like the TV (or for me a pair of speakers, even though they're not ON), that can be enough to let the brain recalibrate based on that visual anchor. It must be consistent, so the brain just switch into "headphone listening mode", the same way it switches into "driving mode" when you get in your car.
It's the beauty and also what's so annoying about the human brain, it's never as simple as the models we make to explain what it's doing. And it's also true this time, but hopefully you get the general idea without me misleading you too much.

Anyway, we do constantly change how we interpret senses, from not feeling as cold after a while in water, to the most subtle things we're never even aware of. What creates or solves a problem is the magnitude of the issue, how obsessed we are about it, and how easy it is to know what the "right" solution should be based on whatever reference available. It starts with a concept as universal as perceived neutral. It's an objective certainty that we all receive different frequency responses at our eardrums, because we have different body sizes, head and ear shapes, different ear canal lengths. We tend to look and be different enough for the frequency response and inter aural delays to be pretty specific to your own body. Yet we all subjectively feel like we're hearing the real sounds around us, unprocessed, unEQed. It sounds normal, natural, neutral, etc. And growing up, while we all lose so much sensitivity in the high frequencies, we still pretty much keep feeling like we're hearing sound normally with a proper balance. It's really when the loss is huge and usually to the point where it hinders our ability for speech recognition or some other tasks, that we really stop feeling like all is normal.



I'm still not sure if OP feels that imbalance only with headphones? I think that can make a world of difference, because for example, Maybe some asymmetry in the face+ears causes a clear imbalance without headphones when he's looking straight at a sound source at some distance (let's say someone talking to him). Or maybe he just has a habit of turning his head slightly to one side when looking at something. Those would be incredibly common things and the brain would have used vision over time to determine something along the lines of "never mind the audio localization error, just set the new center over there". In such a situation, you put on a headphone, it bypasses the head pivot if there was a trend to have one, and most of the head's and ears' asymmetry by having the sound source so close to the ear. There isn't even a visual cue to say where the center/mono should be because the headphone turns with the head. Chances would be in such a case that the brain sticks to what it's used to and offsets the perceived sound when there is no more reason to. Now the headphone feel imbalanced, but turning it around doesn't help because it's the brain's DSP that's adding something we don't need for that particular use called headphone listening.
IDK if it's OP's situation, but objectively speaking, nobody is perfectly symmetrical so instead of wondering if someone is, it's more of a question of how much it ends up altering sound, at which frequency and if that changes a lot when using headphones.

As a counter example, the ear canal creates a pretty strong resonance near 3kHz, making us most sensitive in the region. One ear canal being significantly longer or with a very hard bend that almost closes the canal in 2, that would be enough to shift the frequency of the resonance and maybe the amount of it, causing a very clear interaural imbalance in the midrange. Most people have that to some degree. But because that imbalance applies to 100% of what we're hearing, it's all we know. It's highly unlikely for anybody to ever feel like there is an imbalance. The brain will be completely used to it and have defined it as normal, balanced, flat sound for the real world. Headphone listening or sounds from a distance, same imbalance, same compensation, same experience. In this case, only inserting IEMs deep in the ear canals might reveal the imbalance, removing most or all of the ear canal resonances and creating again a case of brain compensation that is no longer necessary, itself causing an impression of imbalance that doesn't exist.


This wall of words to say, things would be so much easier if it was all just basic acoustic. But our brain often goes "nah ah!" without asking for our opinion.

Edit for Angrish.
 
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Mar 2, 2023 at 10:46 AM Post #13 of 15
As far as it can, the brain recalibrates just about everything all the time without us noticing. Some things are done in minutes, some may take a month or more depending on the magnitude of change or how unusual it is (for the brain, normal only means it often happens, nothing more). And of course, there is a point where some issues are so big that the brain just can't hide them from us. It's not an audio thing, we have constant recalibration for all our senses. If you wear colored glasses for a while, you'll slowly start "seeing" most of the colors as if not tainted by the glasses. And when you later take off the glasses, for a short time you see weird colors.
When you get in a room, initially the amount of reverb can be massive and very noticeable, but if you remain in the room long enough, the brain will understand what portion of the sound is room reverb and lower the amount we consciously perceive (it's guessed that we do that to help stay vigilant and better focus on the might-be-relevant sounds signaling a danger). Subjectively, it just feels like we get used to it, and we usually don't even think about the reverb of a given room (maybe if you sing in the shower you do^_^, because you introduce a very clear marker that you know all too well, your own voice).
At a very slow level, our ears "grow" over the years. And if you use IEMs that go deeps, they will stretch your ear canals. But you wouldn't notice a change of sound like that because it's progressive, and the brain has plenty of time and references to adjust to the new normal.
When you get a new headphone, it's the same thing. You've been using a headphone for a long time, there has been some habituation. When you get a new one, it takes a while to get used to it, and a little longer because of how different it is from the previous one we were used to already. This phenomenon is very clear, but off course it's not reaching the point where all headphones end up sounding the same. That's too much for the brain. But finding a little bump in the frequency response less annoying after a few days of use, getting more used to the different amount of isolation from the headphone, ending up feeling the bass even if it's 10dB below what the last one had relative to midrange, those are things the brain usually handles well with time.
A more peculiar case, if you spend a really long time using a headphone that has a really unmistakable channel imbalance, that will never completely go away. But if you almost exclusively use that headphone to watch TV, over time, the sound will subjectively align with the TV (this one might take months!). Some work is fully automated, and some work kind of follows a narrative that the brain believes. When it comes to sound and vision, basically every brain will trust what it sees over what it hears if the 2 disagree. So in the long term at least, a visual anchor like the TV (or for me a pair of speakers, even though they're not ON), that can be enough to let the brain recalibrate based on that visual anchor. It must be consistent, so the brain just switch into "headphone listening mode", the same way it switches into "driving mode" when you get in your car.
It's the beauty and also what's so annoying about the human brain, it's never as simple as the models we make to explain what it's doing. And it's also true this time, but hopefully you get the general idea without me misleading you too much.

Anyway, we do constantly change how we interpret senses, from not feeling as cold after a while in water, to the most subtle things we're never even aware of. What creates or solves a problem is the magnitude of the issue, how obsessed we are about it, and how easy it is to know what the "right" solution should be based on whatever reference available. It starts with a concept as universal as perceived neutral. It's an objective certainty that we all receive different frequency responses at our eardrums, because we have different body sizes, head and ear shapes, different ear canal lengths. We tend to look and be different enough for the frequency response and inter aural delays to be pretty specific to your own body. Yet we all subjectively feel like we're hearing the real sounds around us, unprocessed, unEQed. It sounds normal, natural, neutral, etc. And growing up, while we all lose so much sensitivity in the high frequencies, we still pretty much keep feeling like we're hearing sound normally with a proper balance. It's really when the loss is huge and usually to the point where it hinders our ability for speech recognition or some other tasks, that we really stop feeling like all is normal.



I'm still not sure if OP feels that imbalance only with headphones? I think that can make a world of difference, because for example, Maybe some asymmetry in the face+ears causes a clear imbalance without headphones when he's looking straight at a sound source at some distance (let's say someone talking to him). Or maybe he just has a habit of turning his head slightly to one side when looking at something. Those would be incredibly common things and the brain would have used vision over time to determine something along the lines of "never mind the audio localization error, just set the new center over there". In such a situation, you put on a headphone, it bypasses the head pivot if there was a trend to have one, and most of the head's and ears' asymmetry by having the sound source so close to the ear. There isn't even a visual cue to say where the center/mono should be because the headphone turns with the head. Chances would be in such a case that the brain sticks to what it's used to and offsets the perceived sound when there is no more reason to. Now the headphone feel imbalanced, but turning it around doesn't help because it's the brain's DSP that's adding something we don't need for that particular use called headphone listening.
IDK if it's OP's situation, but objectively speaking, nobody is perfectly symmetrical so instead of wondering if someone is, it's more of a question of how much it ends up altering sound, at which frequency and if that changes a lot when using headphones.

As a counter example, the ear canal creates a pretty strong resonance near 3kHz, making us most sensitive in the region. One ear canal being significantly longer or with a very hard bend that almost closes the canal in 2. That would be enough to shift the frequency of the resonance and maybe the amount of it, causing a very clear interaural imbalance in the midrange. Most people have that to some degree. But because that imbalance applies to 100% of what we're hearing, it's all we know. It's highly unlikely for anybody to ever feel like there is an imbalance. The brain will be completely used to it and have defined it as normal, balanced, flat sound for the real world. Headphone listening or sounds from a distance, same imbalance, same compensation, same experience. In this case, only inserting IEMs deep in the ear canals might reveal the imbalance, removing most or all of the ear canal resonances and creating again a case of brain compensation that is no more necessary, itself causing an impression of imbalance that doesn't exist.


This wall of words to say, things would be so much easier if it was all just basic acoustic. But our brain often goes "nah ah!" without asking for our opinion.
Fantastic info. Thanks so much for putting that all together.
 
Mar 2, 2023 at 3:37 PM Post #14 of 15
When you get in a room, initially the amount of reverb can be massive and very noticeable, but if you remain in the room long enough, the brain will understand what portion of the sound is room reverb and lower the amount we consciously perceive (it's guessed that we do that to help stay vigilant and better focus on the might-be-relevant sounds signaling a danger).

Your lizard brain, 'Reptilian Complex'.
 
Mar 5, 2023 at 4:56 AM Post #15 of 15
How does the brain adapt?
In a word “Neuroplasticity” - The ability of the brain to grow (change structurally) and/or remap existing neural connections/pathways. If the brain were not capable of this, then we wouldn’t ever be able to learn new skills/abilities. This isn’t specific to human brains, it occurs in other animals too.
Do you feel like you hear normally but don't?
What is “normally”? If we are exposed to a new situation our brain will try to figure it out (subconsciously calculate what’s going on). If we subsequently experience that situation regularly for significant periods, the brain will grow and/or repurpose neural connections which effectively create a new “normal”. There is ample evidence for this going back over two centuries. Floyd Toole and others have done a considerable amount of research specifically in the area of psychoacoustics. Experiments demonstrated that music engineers “adapted” to specific acoustical problems in particular studios, after around a hundred or so hours. Over the course of a few of weeks, this new acoustic effectively became the new “normal”. Interestingly, this new “normal” did not replace the old “normal”, the brain can store and apply more than one “normal”. More recent (and ongoing) research into Head Related Transfer Functions with headphones also demonstrates this fact.

All the above is that dirty word we’re not supposed to mention outside the subforum dedicated to Science. So feel free to ignore/dismiss it all, believe that the brain never adapts or learns anything and put it all down to network switches, cables, fuses or whatever “burn-in”. :)

G
 

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