Need advice on a DAP with at least 220mW/32ohm

[Joe Bloggs]

The E17 was FiiO's upscale model of the E07 Andes and the E17K its successor. Both had the same +-10 step bass and treble controls. I've used and can vouch for both

 

[WairenKaraokae]

The E17K looks like it would be my best bet, although it only puts out 200 mW @32OHM which is actually less than the Andes at 220 mW @32OHM. This isn't a huge difference, but I believe I would benefit from a bit MORE than 220 mW as opposed to less, if there is such a device. If there isn't one similar with the 10 step, I could always order the E17K and return it if there is not enough power.

Do you think that the 10 step E17K at 200mW will provide cleaner/better bass? Or the bass boost switch on the A5 at 800 mW? I understand that the extra power does not necessarily mean better. What is the difference between how the 10 step works, and how the bass boost switch works that makes you think the 10 step will be that much better? Since I am used to the 10 step on the Andes, I agree that this will likely be the closest thing. I am just worried that 200mW is not enough power.

Regardless, thanks a ton for your suggestions and especially for letting me know about the E17! I would have been looking for that this whole time if I had known about it lol. If there is one with a bit more power, I think that is the closest chance I will have to getting what i'm looking for. I have learned SO MUCH from these threads and researching, this stuff is so much fun

 

[WairenKaraokae]

The E17 was FiiO's upscale model of the E07 Andes and the E17K its successor. Both had the same +-10 step bass and treble controls. I've used and can vouch for both

The E17 was FiiO's upscale model of the E07 Andes and the E17K its successor. Both had the same +-10 step bass and treble controls. I've used and can vouch for both

The E17K looks like it would be my best bet, although it only puts out 200 mW @32OHM which is actually less than the Andes at 220 mW @32OHM. This isn't a huge difference, but I believe I would benefit from a bit MORE than 220 mW as opposed to less, if there is such a device. If there isn't one similar with the 10 step, I could always order the E17K and return it if there is not enough power.

Do you think that the 10 step E17K at 200mW will provide cleaner/better bass? Or the bass boost switch on the A5 at 800 mW? I understand that the extra power does not necessarily mean better. What is the difference between how the 10 step works, and how the bass boost switch works that makes you think the 10 step will be that much better? Since I am used to the 10 step on the Andes, I agree that this will likely be the closest thing. I am just worried that 200mW is not enough power.

Regardless, thanks a ton for your suggestions and especially for letting me know about the E17! I would have been looking for that this whole time if I had known about it lol. If there is one with a bit more power, I think that is the closest chance I will have to getting what i'm looking for. I have learned SO MUCH from these threads and researching, this stuff is so much fun

 

[Joe Bloggs]

The E17K looks like it would be my best bet, although it only puts out 200 mW @32OHM which is actually less than the Andes at 220 mW @32OHM. This isn't a huge difference, but I believe I would benefit from a bit MORE than 220 mW as opposed to less, if there is such a device. If there isn't one similar with the 10 step, I could always order the E17K and return it if there is not enough power.

Do you think that the 10 step E17K at 200mW will provide cleaner/better bass? Or the bass boost switch on the A5 at 800 mW? I understand that the extra power does not necessarily mean better. What is the difference between how the 10 step works, and how the bass boost switch works that makes you think the 10 step will be that much better? Since I am used to the 10 step on the Andes, I agree that this will likely be the closest thing. I am just worried that 200mW is not enough power.

Regardless, thanks a ton for your suggestions and especially for letting me know about the E17! I would have been looking for that this whole time if I had known about it lol. If there is one with a bit more power, I think that is the closest chance I will have to getting what i'm looking for. I have learned SO MUCH from these threads and researching, this stuff is so much fun

I'd just guessed that if one made a +-10 step slider in one product and then a single on/off toggle in another, one wouldn't make the toggle as big as the biggest step on the slider. Now I go through the FiiO documentation and it says the +-10 steps stood for +-10dB of boost while the one bass switch on the A5 is +5dB.

I'd driven 250ohm Beyerdynamic DT880s just fine from the E17K, even though that impedance limits the max output power from the E17K to something like 30mW, while your cans' 32ohms avail you of the full 200mW. Speaking of which, something about the specs don't compute--the E17K is stated as having both more output voltage and current than the Andes, yet less power in the final analysis?

 

[WairenKaraokae]

I'd just guessed that if one made a +-10 step slider in one product and then a single on/off toggle in another, one wouldn't make the toggle as big as the biggest step on the slider. Now I go through the FiiO documentation and it says the +-10 steps stood for +-10dB of boost while the one bass switch on the A5 is +5dB.

I'd driven 250ohm Beyerdynamic DT880s just fine from the E17K, even though that impedance limits the max output power from the E17K to something like 30mW, while your cans' 32ohms avail you of the full 200mW. Speaking of which, something about the specs don't compute--the E17K is stated as having both more output voltage and current than the Andes, yet less power in the final analysis?

I wonder if it's not got something to do with the powered vs. battery output. I found this interesting comparison on Fiio's site between the E17k and Andes.
http://www.fiio.net/en/products/38/comparisons

If fiio says they will add a +/12dB dynamic EQ, does that mean I would then be able to manipulate the bass +12 dB, same as this chart?
https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/6895557.jpg

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Did you get around to doing the recording test?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thank you for this advice, I am going to try what you have suggested. Another user suggested that I purchase the Fiio a5 amp to stack with this, do you think that would resolve my issue in the best way?

A5 is warmer. As for whether it's warm enough, we can't answer that for you.

800mW (32 Ω) on the A5, 270 mW (32 Ω) on the A3.
My headphones are Pioneer HDJ X10's. They are (32 Ω), max input is 3500mW, sensitivity is 106dB. Do you think that these headphones can handle the power of the A5, or would the A3 be enough?

Your problem isn't power. As much as your headphones are rated to handle 3500mW, assuming that's accurate, if the 106dB/1mW at 1000hz is accurate as well, with a 2V input signal into the A5 (the X5III will output 1.9V), you're already going past 120dB average (not just peaks) with just over 32mW.

Originally I was aiming for a single device. However to get the bass sound that I am used to, I think I will need to stack with an amp regardless, to distort the signal enough to get the kind of loud & clean low end that I know these phones can produce.

It might distort more and towards the direction you want with the A5. Or even the A3. But whether that goes far enough in the direction you want is hard to tell. Most likely not.

Besides if you'll deliberately distort it why make it a two piece brick when the X5III can run EQ apps thanks to its Android Play Store access. I mean, sure you tried that, but what exactly were you tweaking? Are you just boosting the bass? Maybe try cutting some of the midrange and treble too. And boost mostly the upper bass without neglecting the really low bass. Does the EQ app you're using even have one band adjustment with the center frequency below 50hz?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

A5 is warmer. As for whether it's warm enough, we can't answer that for you.
It might distort more and towards the direction you want with the A5. Or even the A3. But whether that goes far enough in the direction you want is hard to tell. Most likely not.

The Andes had a +-10dB bass slider control which he was using. The A5 only has a bass on switch which goes to 5dB.

And yeah, Viper bass would be his ticket in my book. A bit hard for him to tell, since every module is behind a paywall... Also one familiar with sound design would have thought the 10 band EQ would do the same job, but no, the first two sliders on the Viper EQ don't really work

 

[WairenKaraokae]

The Andes had a +-10dB bass slider control which he was using. The A5 only has a bass on switch which goes to 5dB.

And yeah, Viper bass would be his ticket in my book. A bit hard for him to tell, since every module is behind a paywall... Also one familiar with sound design would have thought the 10 band EQ would do the same job, but no, the first two sliders on the Viper EQ don't really work

Had a crazy day at work didn't get a chance to do the test. I will be sure to post here when I do, I think it will be interesting to learn more about what's going on here. I hope to get a chance tomorrow. I had some trouble purchasing the VIPER bass module, but have it figured out now and should be able to use Paypal tomorrow. I am very grateful for your help, the fact that you know the device makes this much easier. It's hard to explain how the EQ just....doesn't work too well. I had to post several threads on different sites, this is the only place I got a meaningful response from, I think I will stay here

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The Andes had a +-10dB bass slider control which he was using. The A5 only has a bass on switch which goes to 5dB.

He won't have as much control as software EQ though. Although given the headphone he's using I'm even surprised he'd use a separate device meant for neutral response when any mainstream device can likely run it the way he likes.

And yeah, Viper bass would be his ticket in my book. A bit hard for him to tell, since every module is behind a paywall... Also one familiar with sound design would have thought the 10 band EQ would do the same job, but no, the first two sliders on the Viper EQ don't really work

Depending on the device/operating system there are alternatives.

There's Neutron Music Player for just locally stored files that has an EQ even more sophisticated than what one can expect to find on an SQ competition-grade car audio DSP.

For global EQ there's Neutralizer for Android. Interface is more conducive to doing what its name suggests but since the first adjustment band is at 32hz all he has to do is crank it up down there and the succeeding freqs and then knock down some of the midrange and treble. Instead of listening for a neutral tone where he can hear them equally he should hear the bass freq test tones a lot louder.

It's hard to explain how the EQ just....doesn't work too well.

What bands are in the EQ app? What bands are you adjusting and how much? You need to be able to boost 50hz and below to give the bass a deeper tone, somewhere above that and below 150hz to give percussion that harder thump, and then maybe reduce auditory masking by reducing some of the other frequencies.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

What bands are in the EQ app? What bands are you adjusting and how much? You need to be able to boost 50hz and below to give the bass a deeper tone, somewhere above that and below 150hz to give percussion that harder thump, and then maybe reduce auditory masking by reducing some of the other frequencies.

The Viper FIREqualizer has bands down to 32Hz but I had heard from the author himself waay back that its FIR filter only had 512 taps, which would make it only good for EQing down to 93Hz or above (given 48kHz sample rate) and even then only with the coarsest resolution at those frequencies. It would seem obvious (from longtime listening) that the viper bass module on the other hand is based on a simple IIR filter dedicated to working properly at those low frequencies

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The Viper FIREqualizer has bands down to 32Hz but I had heard from the author himself waay back that its FIR filter only had 512 taps, which would make it only good for EQing down to 93Hz or above (given 48kHz sample rate) and even then only with the coarsest resolution at those frequencies. It would seem obvious (from longtime listening) that the viper bass module on the other hand is based on a simple IIR filter dedicated to working properly at those low frequencies

That kind of sucks for what he needs. Neutron's drawback is it isn't a global EQ app.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

The Viper FIREqualizer has bands down to 32Hz but I had heard from the author himself waay back that its FIR filter only had 512 taps, which would make it only good for EQing down to 93Hz or above (given 48kHz sample rate) and even then only with the coarsest resolution at those frequencies. It would seem obvious (from longtime listening) that the viper bass module on the other hand is based on a simple IIR filter dedicated to working properly at those low frequencies

Just thought to quantify this with my own measurements for the first time and I need to take back what I said, the FIR EQ is effective on all bands (at least on my install of V4A which isn't on the X5III so it's not 100% certain to work the same way), but the level of boost / cut is slightly overstated, about 9dB when you push all the way to +12. Viper Bass is good for up to 17dB of boost as stated and dynamic system up to over 20 at 100%, so if you get all 3 modules the potential boost adds up to over 40dB which is just crazy!