Need advice on a DAP with at least 220mW/32ohm

[WairenKaraokae]

Hi there! I recently purchased a Fiio X5 III DAP to use with my Pioneer HDJ X10 headphones. I noticed that even when adjusting the EQ and filters, the bass response was quite weak. After some research I discovered that the DAC used in the X5III is an AKM AK4490, which provides incredible clarity but does not produce the bass that I am looking for.

I also have a Fiio Andes E07K. When I use the X5 as a preamp and the Andes as the amp, I get much louder bass. The X5 has slightly more power than the Andes, so I am not completely sure why that is. I bought the X5 to replace the Andes/Player combination I was previously using.

I am looking for a DAP with a warmer bass signature than the AKM AK4490 in the X5III, and at least 220mW/32ohm. Similar to the AndesE07k, but with the ability to play music. Thanks in advance for your help!!

 

[Me x3]

FiiO X5III is already a relatively warm sounding DAP. You should keep in mind most high quality DAPs are designed to provide a linear frequency response and that means they will make your headphones sound as they were intended by the designer (and you might like it or not, which is perfectly fine). Getting the very powerful FiiO A5 amplifier to use with your X5III would be a great way to get way more power, along with an even warmer signature and also the BASS mode that you can turn on whenever you feel it's needed. There's also a stacking kit called SK-X5III that's not very expensive and can be a nice addition to this combo.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hi there! I recently purchased a Fiio X5 III DAP to use with my Pioneer HDJ X10 headphones. I noticed that even when adjusting the EQ and filters, the bass response was quite weak. After some research I discovered that the DAC used in the X5III is an AKM AK4490, which provides incredible clarity but does not produce the bass that I am looking for.

I also have a Fiio Andes E07K. When I use the X5 as a preamp and the Andes as the amp, I get much louder bass. The X5 has slightly more power than the Andes, so I am not completely sure why that is. I bought the X5 to replace the Andes/Player combination I was previously using.

X5III has no real preamp control, only fixed voltage line output or headphone output. What you're doing is double amping, sending the amplified signal to the E07K.

The E07K is natively warmer sounding, ie, not as linear as the X5 and X7. Think of it as an X1 with more power. You're not actually getting more power into the headphone since the circuit that sees the headphone as the load is the E07K, not the X5's, so you're technically sending it less power.

What you're hearing is the E07K's distortion (including possibly lower damping factor) helped along by whatever distortion the X5III has at the level you set it. You're essentially just sending the E07K a signal louder than the 1.5V or so that its DAC section will have, and likely, since you're using the X5III's headphone output as a "preamp," you're likely sending well over the Redbook single ended standard 2V.

Since you're using EQ anyway why not just use a smartphone with a warm DAC-HPamp like the E07K and use DSP tweaks? EQ to boost the bass even more and then use Replay Gain to boost the signal. I mean, if you prefer the sound of a high voltage input into a non-linear amp might as well avoid likely neutral DAPs or those with interfaces less capable than a smartphone and just use a smartphone that can run those DSP tweaks more easily (thanks to more CPU cores and RAM) while staying thinner and just use a warm DAC-HPamp for that double layer of sound shaping.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Hi there! I recently purchased a Fiio X5 III DAP to use with my Pioneer HDJ X10 headphones. I noticed that even when adjusting the EQ and filters, the bass response was quite weak. After some research I discovered that the DAC used in the X5III is an AKM AK4490, which provides incredible clarity but does not produce the bass that I am looking for.

I also have a Fiio Andes E07K. When I use the X5 as a preamp and the Andes as the amp, I get much louder bass. The X5 has slightly more power than the Andes, so I am not completely sure why that is. I bought the X5 to replace the Andes/Player combination I was previously using.

I am looking for a DAP with a warmer bass signature than the AKM AK4490 in the X5III, and at least 220mW/32ohm. Similar to the AndesE07k, but with the ability to play music. Thanks in advance for your help!!

If only you could make a line in measurement of a test sweep of your X5 III connected to a computer line in with the Pioneer headphones connected in parallel, that would get to the bottom of the question of what exactly the X5III is doing under each condition. It's what I would do but understandably out of technical reach for most people...

 

[WairenKaraokae]

FiiO X5III is already a relatively warm sounding DAP. You should keep in mind most high quality DAPs are designed to provide a linear frequency response and that means they will make your headphones sound as they were intended by the designer (and you might like it or not, which is perfectly fine). Getting the very powerful FiiO A5 amplifier to use with your X5III would be a great way to get way more power, along with an even warmer signature and also the BASS mode that you can turn on whenever you feel it's needed. There's also a stacking kit called SK-X5III that's not very expensive and can be a nice addition to this combo.

Based upon the advice I have received in this thread, I think I am going to keep the X5III. I am happy to see this recommendation, as I was considering purchasing the Fiio A3 to stack with it. 800mW (32 Ω) on the A5, 270 mW (32 Ω) on the A3.
My headphones are Pioneer HDJ X10's. They are (32 Ω), max input is 3500mW, sensitivity is 106dB. Do you think that these headphones can handle the power of the A5, or would the A3be enough? If so, I will probably order an A5 this week instead of returning my X5III.

https://headfonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/900x900px-LL-9b0a62e5_QQ20161117152626.png

 

[WairenKaraokae]

X5III has no real preamp control, only fixed voltage line output or headphone output. What you're doing is double amping, sending the amplified signal to the E07K.

The E07K is natively warmer sounding, ie, not as linear as the X5 and X7. Think of it as an X1 with more power. You're not actually getting more power into the headphone since the circuit that sees the headphone as the load is the E07K, not the X5's, so you're technically sending it less power.

What you're hearing is the E07K's distortion (including possibly lower damping factor) helped along by whatever distortion the X5III has at the level you set it. You're essentially just sending the E07K a signal louder than the 1.5V or so that its DAC section will have, and likely, since you're using the X5III's headphone output as a "preamp," you're likely sending well over the Redbook single ended standard 2V.

Since you're using EQ anyway why not just use a smartphone with a warm DAC-HPamp like the E07K and use DSP tweaks? EQ to boost the bass even more and then use Replay Gain to boost the signal. I mean, if you prefer the sound of a high voltage input into a non-linear amp might as well avoid likely neutral DAPs or those with interfaces less capable than a smartphone and just use a smartphone that can run those DSP tweaks more easily (thanks to more CPU cores and RAM) while staying thinner and just use a warm DAC-HPamp for that double layer of sound shaping.

Thank you for this advice, I am going to try what you have suggested. Another user suggested that I purchase the Fiio a5 amp to stack with this, do you think that would resolve my issue in the best way?
800mW (32 Ω) on the A5, 270 mW (32 Ω) on the A3.
My headphones are Pioneer HDJ X10's. They are (32 Ω), max input is 3500mW, sensitivity is 106dB. Do you think that these headphones can handle the power of the A5, or would the A3 be enough?

Originally I was aiming for a single device. However to get the bass sound that I am used to, I think I will need to stack with an amp regardless, to distort the signal enough to get the kind of loud & clean low end that I know these phones can produce.

 

[WairenKaraokae]

If only you could make a line in measurement of a test sweep of your X5 III connected to a computer line in with the Pioneer headphones connected in parallel, that would get to the bottom of the question of what exactly the X5III is doing under each condition. It's what I would do but understandably out of technical reach for most people...

I have all of the equipment I need to do this, and should be able to figure it out. Is there a guide anywhere on how to do this? I have a few hours this afternoon I can work on it. How would everything be setup? Do the headphones connect to the sound mixer on my PC, or right into the X5? I have done some Googling looking for a guide, but i'm not exactly sure what this is called and "line in measurement" didn't provide me with much lol.

 

[WairenKaraokae]

When using the Fiio A5 or A3 amp, does it need to be plugged in to provide the full power? One problem that I have with the Andes Amp/DAC is that it needs to be powered by USB to produce the maximum sound. Even when fully charged, if it is not plugged into USB it has much less power. As it stands now I carry 4 devices and would like to eliminate the power bank so I only have to carry the X5, the A5, and my phone.

 

[Me x3]

Based upon the advice I have received in this thread, I think I am going to keep the X5III. I am happy to see this recommendation, as I was considering purchasing the Fiio A3 to stack with it. 800mW (32 Ω) on the A5, 270 mW (32 Ω) on the A3.
My headphones are Pioneer HDJ X10's. They are (32 Ω), max input is 3500mW, sensitivity is 106dB. Do you think that these headphones can handle the power of the A5, or would the A3be enough? If so, I will probably order an A5 this week instead of returning my X5III.

https://headfonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/900x900px-LL-9b0a62e5_QQ20161117152626.png

Both FiiO A3 and FiiO A5 can drive your headphones with ease, but FiiO A5 is warmer which is exactly what you're looking for and it's also the superior piece of gear.
If budget allows, FiiO A5 is a much better companion for the X5III.

FiiO A5 is a really powerful device but it's also designed to work with a very wide range of headphones, from iems to high impedance full size headphones.
So you don't have to worry for it being 'too powerful'. You can always start in low gain mode, if you ever feel volume is not enough, lower the volume pot level and switch to high gain mode.

FiiO A5 is like a 517HP Aston Martin DB9, there's tons of power available for the most demanding drive, but you decide how much of it to use.
You just don't go full throttle on a busy city street, for instance. FiiO A5's volume pot in high gain mode is like DB9's throttle pedal.

 

[Me x3]

When using the Fiio A5 or A3 amp, does it need to be plugged in to provide the full power?

No, they don't need to be plugged in.
Both work full spec from their batteries.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I have all of the equipment I need to do this, and should be able to figure it out. Is there a guide anywhere on how to do this? I have a few hours this afternoon I can work on it. How would everything be setup? Do the headphones connect to the sound mixer on my PC, or right into the X5? I have done some Googling looking for a guide, but i'm not exactly sure what this is called and "line in measurement" didn't provide me with much lol.

You need:
A Y-splitter cable giving you two 3.5mm stereo ports from one, plugged into the X5III.
A 3.5mm (both ends) aux cable connecting one of the ports from the Y-splitter to the computer line in.
The pioneer headphones connected to the other port, to load down the X5III and see what its performance is under load.
The X5III is to play a sweep file e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/yujhd5d62c8iagm/in.wav?dl=0
The computer is to record it using best quality settings (but sample rate preferably matching that of the sound file (provided one is 48kHz) and with all sound effects turned off.
You can then put the recording through Voxengo Deconvolver with the provided sweep file as the original to compute an impulse response and look at its frequency response, or you could just eyeball the recording to see if the recording level is the same from beginning to end (flat FR). But you also need to make sure that there is no clipping happening to the recording.

 

[WairenKaraokae]

Both FiiO A3 and FiiO A5 can drive your headphones with ease, but FiiO A5 is warmer which is exactly what you're looking for and it's also the superior piece of gear.
If budget allows, FiiO A5 is a much better companion for the X5III.

FiiO A5 is a really powerful device but it's also designed to work with a very wide range of headphones, from iems to high impedance full size headphones.
So you don't have to worry for it being 'too powerful'. You can always start in low gain mode, if you ever feel volume is not enough, lower the volume pot level and switch to high gain mode.

FiiO A5 is like a 517HP Aston Martin DB9, there's tons of power available for the most demanding drive, but you decide how much of it to use.
You just don't go full throttle on a busy city street, for instance. FiiO A5's volume pot in high gain mode is like DB9's throttle pedal.

Ohhh I understand, perfect analogy! I'm looking into ordering the A5 right now. Naturally, once I receive it I will be sure to post my results in this thread! Thanks again for your advice, it is greatly appreciated!

 

[WairenKaraokae]

You need:
A Y-splitter cable giving you two 3.5mm stereo ports from one, plugged into the X5III.
A 3.5mm (both ends) aux cable connecting one of the ports from the Y-splitter to the computer line in.
The pioneer headphones connected to the other port, to load down the X5III and see what its performance is under load.
The X5III is to play a sweep file e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/yujhd5d62c8iagm/in.wav?dl=0
The computer is to record it using best quality settings (but sample rate preferably matching that of the sound file (provided one is 48kHz) and with all sound effects turned off.
You can then put the recording through Voxengo Deconvolver with the provided sweep file as the original to compute an impulse response and look at its frequency response, or you could just eyeball the recording to see if the recording level is the same from beginning to end (flat FR). But you also need to make sure that there is no clipping happening to the recording.

Oh wow, thank you so much for the detailed instructions! I'm going to set it up after lunch today. I am most likely going to purchase a Fiio A5 amp to boost the bass instead of returning my X5. Nonetheless I would like to do this line in measurement. I am hoping that it will give me an idea of how much/where exactly on the spectrum I should be modifying the response.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Your bass needs are to be satisfied by shaping of the signal itself rather than amplification of the signal (I think both the X5III by itself and your E07K have enough power to power your headphones which look ordinary in spec, otherwise you should be hearing distorted bass notes rather than just quiet ones). If the signal itself is not changed to emphasize the bass no amount of amping will bring it out. Your E07K had +-10 step bass and treble controls which I'm sure could have been set to boost the bass more than the A5's one gain switch.

The Viper settings on the X5III are somewhat flawed in that the FIR equalizer has too few taps to really bring out frequencies much under 100Hz. Your best bet would be to buy the Viper bass module. Which has sort of the opposite problem, it's boost frequency can range from 0 to 100Hz when you'd want to set it to at least say 60Hz to hear any boosts it make. I usually set it to 70-80Hz. Together with the actual bass boost amount in dB the two knobs on this module give fine control to the amount and tonality of the bass boost to make.

I'm just puzzled to hear that you find the X5III to sound thinner than your iPhone even when paired with the Andes in both cases, which is why I suggested measurements. You can also make other measurements, from the X5III and the iPhone with and without the Andes, with and without the headphones connected in parallel, for comparisons.

 

[WairenKaraokae]

Your bass needs are to be satisfied by shaping of the signal itself rather than amplification of the signal (I think both the X5III by itself and your E07K have enough power to power your headphones which look ordinary in spec, otherwise you should be hearing distorted bass notes rather than just quiet ones). If the signal itself is not changed to emphasize the bass no amount of amping will bring it out. Your E07K had +-10 step bass and treble controls which I'm sure could have been set to boost the bass more than the A5's one gain switch.

The Viper settings on the X5III are somewhat flawed in that the FIR equalizer has too few taps to really bring out frequencies much under 100Hz. Your best bet would be to buy the Viper bass module. Which has sort of the opposite problem, it's boost frequency can range from 0 to 100Hz when you'd want to set it to at least say 60Hz to hear any boosts it make. I usually set it to 70-80Hz. Together with the actual bass boost amount in dB the two knobs on this module give fine control to the amount and tonality of the bass boost to make.

I'm just puzzled to hear that you find the X5III to sound thinner than your iPhone even when paired with the Andes in both cases, which is why I suggested measurements. You can also make other measurements, from the X5III and the iPhone with and without the Andes, with and without the headphones connected in parallel, for comparisons.

I see what you are saying. The only problem I have with the Andes, is that it needs a power source to put out the max power. Is there possibly a device like the Andes with a similar level of bass control that does not require a power source?