[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please see Magnetic Fields of Twisted-Wire Pairs Shenfeld, S. Navy Underwater Sound Laboratory, New London, Conn. 06320; Electromagnetic Compatibility, IEEE Transactions on Publication Date: Nov. 1969 Volume: EMC-11, Issue: 4 On page(s): 164-169

I guess you missed the part where that Braid is not twisted pair.

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[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess you missed the part where that Braid is not twisted pair. .

that's what equations and models are for....

 

[null_pointer_us]

I keep getting confused while reading this thread, as to what is actually being advocated. Pardon my general ignorance, but what is the technique les_garten and fsma are interested in using, again? i.e. Is there a simple set of instructions or a diagram in case someone (like me

) wants to make such a stereo headphone cable? I'm new to DIY audio.

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by null_pointer_us /img/forum/go_quote.gif I keep getting confused while reading this thread, as to what is actually being advocated. Pardon my general ignorance, but what is the technique les_garten and fsma are interested in using, again? i.e. Is there a simple set of instructions or a diagram in case someone (like me ) wants to make such a stereo headphone cable? I'm new to DIY audio.

Hi,
It's really simple and is a mainstay of audio wiring.

1) You start with two channels, R and L
2) These Channels have a ground reference associated with them, the negative lead.
3) Don't twist R and L with each other
4) Twist R with it's ground
5) Twist L with it's ground
6) Try to keep them separated from each other, AND/OR shielded from each other(Pairs)
7) Don't twist the R with the L, then untwist and twist with one Ground, then untwist, and twist with L again, then untwist, and twist with the other ground, etc, etc.

The snag here is the intermixing and the interleaving of the Signal channels.

Show me speaker cables that blend L and R like this?

Show me Premaps that don't try to keep the inputs separated from each other and twisted around their ground references.

Show me a premap that twists the signals around each other, just one, and I'm not talking about the one your idiot brother made! Production models.

I'm preparing to build a B22, this is part of the wiring scheme to keep the channels away from each other and twisted around their ground reference. Each channel is twisted around it's own ground reference.

R and L are not married together and twisted around each other except in the headphone cable world. Everywhere else it is FORBIDDEN.

Why in the headphone cable world? Because of convenience. The very nature of the cables that are small enough to do this are basically MONO cables that are being re-purposed by "us".

But think about it. The big companies making cheap Phones with Cheap cables put Dual cables on them. Why? Because they have engineers on staff telling them not to interleave the signals. Sheesh!

The whole idea of Hi End audio gear is Dual Mono. Keep your Channels away from each other. The Best Cable would be Dual Balanced config with separate home runs to each driver with good cable and Balanced Dual Mono gear. I'm planning my build now.

Lots of people Use a Star quad, but it's a mono cable, that's how it was designed. I called the companies. I'm just saying it should be a Dual Star Quad. For some reason that's revolutionary.

I have a whole team of Engineers backing me up. They're at Canare and Mogami.

I'm not an EE, but I woke up this morning with a modicum of common sense in my head and money still in my wallet from not buying that $1400 Headphone cable at SAA!


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[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by les_garten /img/forum/go_quote.gif The snag here is the intermixing and the interleaving of the Signal channels. I don't think you understand what interleaving means Show me speaker cables that blend L and R like this? How is that even possible? unless you are putting the speaker right next to each other Show me Premaps that don't try to keep the inputs separated from each other and twisted around their ground references. why would anyone twist all channels together and untwist at the end?? keep the cables-run short is the general goal here Show me a premap that twists the signals around each other, just one, and I'm not talking about the one your idiot brother made! Production models. see above I'm preparing to build a B22, this is part of the wiring scheme to keep the channels away from each other and twisted around their ground reference. Each channel is twisted around it's own ground reference. sounds good. make sure you have short/equal distance runs R and L are not married together and twisted around each other except in the headphone cable world. Everywhere else it is FORBIDDEN. uh? people do it all the time, try cut open your cat5 cable; you don't want to run two cables side-by-side in close proximity Why in the headphone cable world? Because of convenience. The very nature of the cables that are small enough to do this are basically MONO cables that are being re-purposed by "us". your lack of knowledge is beyond reproach But think about it. The big companies making cheap Phones with Cheap cables put Dual cables on them. Why? Because they have engineers on staff telling them not to interleave the signals. Sheesh! The whole idea of Hi End audio gear is Dual Mono. Keep your Channels away from each other. The Best Cable would be Dual Balanced config with separate home runs to each driver with good cable and Balanced Dual Mono gear. I'm planning my build now. your lack of knowledge is beyond reproach Lots of people Use a Star quad, but it's a mono cable, that's how it was designed. I called the companies. I'm just saying it should be a Dual Star Quad. For some reason that's revolutionary. I have a whole team of Engineers backing me up. They're at Canare and Mogami. I'm not an EE, but I woke up this morning with a modicum of common sense in my head and money still in my wallet from not buying that $1400 Headphone cable at SAA! I figured that out already, which would make your comments on any technical details related to EE irrelevant at this point .

please see bold

wow..this is like asking to prove Ohm's law in the 21centry when someone can just google the damn thing.

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif please see bold wow..this is like asking to prove Ohm's law in the 21centry when someone can just google the damn thing.

It's difficult to answer your non answer.

I'm not sure what your agenda here is?

Let's examine your Cat-5 statement.

Cut it open, you have 4 Signal pairs that are intimately twisted with respect to the Tip/ring of the pair. These 4 pairs are also twisted with a varying rate of twist that tightens and loosens the twist rate as you progress down the wire.

Ethernet is transmitted on 2 of these pairs. If you look at the ethernrt jack, The transmit pair occupies pins 1 and 2 and the receive pair occupies positions 3 and 6. Positions 1 and 2 are intimately twisted together down the cable as a signal pair. Positions 3 and 6 do the same. These are the orange and green pairs.

Lets say you had a long cable run connecting two Ethernet switches. You terminated both ends of your cable as Blue-Orange-Green-Brown. A common way to terminate Telco cables back in the day by Ol' Telco guys. So the Blue pair is in Position 1 and 2 the orange pair is in position 3 and 4, the Green pair is in position 5 and 6, and the Brown pair is in position 7 and 8.

Analyze the Cat 5 data capabilities of that cable run?

Because This is exactly what I'm been talking about here.

When we get thru this piece, then we'll do the second question. Lets do one question at a time.


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[Peyotero]

I didn't understand any word of what chesebert said (maybe I'm not smart enough) but show me one headphone from the 1$ one up to 1000$+ where it mixes both signals and I'll start listening harder.

The idea of this thread is one of the funniest thing I've seen here yet (besides Patrick of course. no one messes with Patrick!). If crosstalk is of any significance in headphone cables, then any stock hp cable will out perform 90% of the cable "upgrades" here (???).

 

[les_garten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyotero /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't understand any word of what chesebert said (maybe I'm not smart enough) but show me one headphone from the 1$ one up to 1000$+ where it mixes both signals and I'll start listening harder. The idea of this thread is one of the funniest thing I've seen here yet (besides Patrick of course. no one messes with Patrick!). If crosstalk is of any significance in headphone cables, then any stock hp cable will out perform 90% of the cable "upgrades" here (???).

Headphone Cables

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[Peyotero]

Oh sorry I meant stock cables. Heh don't show me that ^#$# I don't like pink cables that costs more then my car.

EDIT: oh it seems you have the option to put black nylon sleeve over it only for 8$ a foot (probably cryo treated). I'm selling my car.

 

[les_garten]

I have a cable off my DX1000, that's an Over $1000 can. I'll look at it later and see if I can expose it without sacrificing it and get some pix.

Here's one of the most famous, if not the most famous Headphone Cable here. 10' Cable made up in this retails nearly $300 for your Daddies Senn 650s.

Nice Cable for a MONO cable, we could do a lot better for a stereo cable.

If this is such a good thing for Stereo, why doesn't everybody just put two RCAs on each end and make a great pair of ICs?

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[Rick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peyotero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Heh fsma be carefull shouting "THE KING IS NAKED!!" here. You might get stoned. My first most enthusiastic hp recable atempt was also probaly the most silly one. I had good intentions though I just thought- "if John Grado can make a cable with 8 conductors, why can't I?" I emidiatly grabed some cat5 cable and stripped it down. Braided the 4 twised in pairs wires in "litz braid" then did the normal litz braid after the y split.. yeah. I doubt that's what Grado had in mind. Then decided to try better quality cables so I ordered some SPC. While waiting for the order I've done some googling on Litz braiding and its benifits, to be prepared for some l33t recabling work. Stumbled on some thread here in head-fi in the "for sale forum" where a guy commented on a wire some dude were trying to sell, basically telling him that crossing two signals is silly.. So I ran back to the source. The place that has inspired 90% of the DIY custom cables around here and probably good slice of the after market cables, also. And there he is, clearly saying that crossing signals is to silly to even think about. And he makes perfect too, since all of the mic proffesional mic cables I've seen run their signals in paralel (cardas, mogami, canare and whatever). Your thread poses a problem. Lets say I'm a fresh fish and I just finished an awesome looking cable "head-fi way" (aka blantly wrong). Everybody's doing it so it must be the proper way. So I'm selling it to some other guy now. Am I a scammer? No. I'm just ignorat. Just like the the guy who's buying it. But with a thread like this... 100% scam. Unless of course I clearly state that this cable is just for bling bling since the config is plain wrong. Haha man you won't even get flamed in here (not counting that guy who called you a loser and instantly made a fool out of himself). It's to embarassing. Do you even realise how bad this is? How the hell am I gonna stuff 8 conductors with some fancy techflex + heatshrink into that tiny Neutrik plug while maintaining the signal pass paralel?? person.

First of all, how am I a scammer? do you see me attempting to sell anything? does it look like anything was done in that other thread that indicated anything other than an attempt to enlighten someone with a mean of selling a cable that did not induce crosstalk?

second, I dont seem to have trouble fitting heatshrink and (not techflex, that just feels cheap and plastic-like), nylon multifilament and yes it all fits into that tiny neutrik connector, its a magic trick I do, wanna see how?


Few simple rules for those of us who are wanting to learn:

1. 8 wires can fit in a tiny neutrik connector
2. however you are building your cable, unless you can cross signals at a 90 degree angle (or there abouts atleast), if you can't, then dont cross them. plain and simple.
3. if braiding, braid it as loose as you possibly can. a cable is not alike a woman, you want it loose as a goose, to allow air dielectrics as well as to keep the wires from touching one another as little as possible.
4. Upon finishing your cable, don't immediately listen to death metal, or R&B/rap and then say that you cannot hear a difference, no duh you can't, thats not hi-fi audio to begin with. put on some classical/jazz or classic rock for that matter.


if I'm coming off arogant at all I apologize, posts like the one I quote get on my nerves and its 3am so Im tired enough to express it.

 

[sachu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsma /img/forum/go_quote.gif if I'm coming off arogant at all I apologize, posts like the one I quote get on my nerves and its 3am so Im tired enough to express it.

aargh!..you need to get some sleep Ryan..oh wait a minute..so do I...

btw, will send you a PM regarding this wire stuff..need some info and recommendations

 

[J.D.N]

So would a cable like this be acceptable as both wires are screened from each other?

 

[Rick]

Those are running parallel, not braided, and there's only two wires so I'm not sure how you plan to have 2 channels out of that, but to answer your question, yes that cable is fine.

Sachu: its Rick, hehe. and yeah I'm hitting the sack now but I'd imagine I'll be up in a few hours so send PM whenever.

 

[J.D.N]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsma /img/forum/go_quote.gif Those are running parallel, not braided, and there's only two wires so I'm not sure how you plan to have 2 channels out of that, but to answer your question, yes that cable is fine.

Well if you were making, say, an iPod LOD, then white would be left, red right, and then the screening would be ground. It obviously depends on what application it is going to be used in.

Are you saying that running signals in parallel is ok? I would have thought this would be bad, and also why cables like star quad have been named in the discussion.