my new HD650 sounded awful... but not anymore! (updated title)
Jul 31, 2009 at 8:07 AM Post #91 of 111
Just found this one http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f44/fs...hipped-434202/

Check the FS forum ones in the while, its a good place to buy used, imo

Your confusion is nothing but normal, dont worry about it, just take time for searching, helps a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can get the headroom balanced cable for 100$ which is not much, it is a hd650 stock cable only balanced.


thanks blackmore, sorry for all the confusion in my earlier posts. I just too hurried and rush sometimes but afterwards i regret it. the hd650 are superb headphones and i will enjoy them for sure, and about going balance...it will take some time for saving money,unless i will find some relatively cheap balanced amping solution.



 
Jul 31, 2009 at 10:45 AM Post #92 of 111
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingerpick /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I even sleep with phones on to mitigate weird noises.


I think this requires an immediate explanation, Fingerpick!
smily_headphones1.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingerpick /img/forum/go_quote.gif
More to the point, the 650s (all of mine with 1000s or hours on them) are always satisfying. A couple of tips which will drive most here crazy. First the need for headphone amps is really overated. Many color sound and any good Sony or Marantz player with volume controls for the can jack will sound exceptional. So do plug your 650s into the cd 5001 and run them at listening volumes for several hundred hours. Again depending on the music and recording I think the pleasure will come.


Totally agree. I've used 650s and other good phones with all kinds of equipment--integrateds, receivers, CD players and dedicated amps--and the differences are minimal at best. Indeed the 650s in particular, no doubt because of their high impedance, are quite impervious to amps and will sound quite marvellous with any well designed, low distortion amp; what all this "don't buy the 650 unless you're prepared to spend up big on an amp" business is I've never understood. I've even read newbies here saying, "I tried my 650 in my old NAD/Marantz/Rotel (insert as appropriate) amp and it sounded great. Can't wait to hear what it sounds like with a proper amp!" Eh? Why are the above not "proper" amps? The newbie duly buys his exorbitant dedicated amp and tells us all how much better it is, because he just knew it would be, but then a couple of weeks later decides to do an a/b comparison with his old integrated and realizes there's very little if any difference. That, however, he's too embarrassed to post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingerpick /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Again original digital recordings are almost a necessity. Computer sound cards (most) and mp3s have little place in the signal chain of great cans. While cables and amps and other add ons to headphones can make small differences, I've yet to hear any that were anywhere near worth the money. Even the incredible top of the line DiMarzio headphone extension cable (I use their Pickups both electric and acoustic guitar) which is one of the very finest is not a great improvement over the normal 650 sound directly from the 5001 can jack. In fact it is so accurate/efficient (the extension) that it sounds just like the direct plugged in sound. A less expensive 15'+ extension cable really will widen the soundstage of the 650 and remove some of the veil if that is what your goal is. In my opinion the so called veil is easil ignored after a few minutes and actually allows the music to flow to me rather than attack my senses. Very seductive for my kind of music.


I'm a little mystified about how an extension cable can modify the sound. Could you explain further?
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 11:11 AM Post #93 of 111
interesting thread: I'm very glad on the OP's behave that he stuck with these after makeing such a huge jump and realising that a big difference will require time to adjust to. Incubation periode is just so important no matter if you think burn in exsist or not - the brain takes up to 6 weeks of 24/7 use like with hearing aids to adjust fully + you phycologically need to let your guard down so you don't color a product for god or worse by brand/look and feel so much.
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 5:31 PM Post #94 of 111
just plugged the HD650 to the marantz CD5001 and the sound is really really good...even more than the EF1. Only the ultra micros are coming close, but the marantz seems to be like the ultra micros only a tiny warmer.
Didn't expect the stand alone cd player to sound so good. it didn't matched well with my grados, but with the senns it rocks!
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 5:44 PM Post #95 of 111
so the cd5001 has a good headphone out? Might have to purchase one of these along the way.
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 6:19 PM Post #96 of 111
Quote:

Originally Posted by plonter /img/forum/go_quote.gif
just plugged the HD650 to the marantz CD5001 and the sound is really really good...even more than the EF1. Only the ultra micros are coming close, but the marantz seems to be like the ultra micros only a tiny warmer.
Didn't expect the stand alone cd player to sound so good. it didn't matched well with my grados, but with the senns it rocks!



i told you so?
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yes...the CD5001 doesn't do well with lower impedance phones. but with the Senns it competes with dedicated amp/dacs in the sub $500 range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Totally agree. I've used 650s and other good phones with all kinds of equipment--integrateds, receivers, CD players and dedicated amps--and the differences are minimal at best. Indeed the 650s in particular, no doubt because of their high impedance, are quite impervious to amps and will sound quite marvellous with any well designed, low distortion amp; what all this "don't buy the 650 unless you're prepared to spend up big on an amp" business is I've never understood. I've even read newbies here saying, "I tried my 650 in my old NAD/Marantz/Rotel (insert as appropriate) amp and it sounded great. Can't wait to hear what it sounds like with a proper amp!" Eh? Why are the above not "proper" amps? The newbie duly buys his exorbitant dedicated amp and tells us all how much better it is, because he just knew it would be, but then a couple of weeks later decides to do an a/b comparison with his old integrated and realizes there's very little if any difference. That, however, he's too embarrassed to post.


yup...exactly. the only difference between my CD5001 vs. DLIII/Gilmore Lite combo is that the latter provides better soundstaging, better control in the highs, and slightly better detail that's all. the CD5001 is very competent in expressing the emotion of the HD650 just as well as any other dedicated amp.

(yay for 500 post!!
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)
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 6:20 PM Post #97 of 111
Quote:

Originally Posted by nhancakes /img/forum/go_quote.gif
so the cd5001 has a good headphone out? Might have to purchase one of these along the way.


pretty good i would say. never heard others but this is very good comparing to my other headamps.
it also had a good dac chip.
 
Jul 31, 2009 at 7:29 PM Post #98 of 111
interesting if i get some higher impedence phones sometime i might as well get the marantz cd5001 as a transport for a modest system upgrade
 
Aug 1, 2009 at 1:50 AM Post #99 of 111
Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think this requires an immediate explanation, Fingerpick!
smily_headphones1.gif


Totally agree. I've used 650s and other good phones with all kinds of equipment--integrateds, receivers, CD players and dedicated amps--and the differences are minimal at best. Indeed the 650s in particular, no doubt because of their high impedance, are quite impervious to amps and will sound quite marvellous with any well designed, low distortion amp; what all this "don't buy the 650 unless you're prepared to spend up big on an amp" business is I've never understood. I've even read newbies here saying, "I tried my 650 in my old NAD/Marantz/Rotel (insert as appropriate) amp and it sounded great. Can't wait to hear what it sounds like with a proper amp!" Eh? Why are the above not "proper" amps? The newbie duly buys his exorbitant dedicated amp and tells us all how much better it is, because he just knew it would be, but then a couple of weeks later decides to do an a/b comparison with his old integrated and realizes there's very little if any difference. That, however, he's too embarrassed to post.

I'm a little mystified about how an extension cable can modify the sound. Could you explain further?



pp312: Glad you picked up on these musings. First the headphone while sleeping is really something people should try. The weird noises can be cars, dogs barking, cats fighting, or people noises. I have a very active mind that does not like to sleep. While a touring musician for many years, I used drugs (pot) to sleep but found upon waking though I thought I'd been asleep, it was only an illusion. Specifically I use the closed back dT770 to mitigate noise I have no control over, replacing that kind of noise with sounds I am used to. High quality Soundtracks from great films and tv shows I enjoy (Eureka, Psych, Tremors, Special Unit 2, Monk, Warehouse 13 and most good scifi even classics from the 50s and 60s that are dialogue rich and explosion sparse. Kinda like being read a story a Mom would do to get a kid to sleep but with the spatial ambience of life around the story.

Most pertinent of course is my lovely partner's snoring. We share a room but have separate beds as our schedules are quite different. She a beauty and we've been together for over 20 years. Awake she's a dream but once asleep I've heard quieter leaf blowers. The dt770s kill ambient sound well while still providing exeptional sound. Listening to both beautifully recorded music and well dialogued drama has an added advantage of providing sensory input that can result in quite fantastic dreaming, during which most of my creativivty is jump started anyway. Volume level is kept a bit lower than awake listening.

The spatiality of good tv soundtraks as well as certain films (again sans explosions which I edit out) is truly immersive as is great music of course. I listen to them (the open back senns) in the studio or other perfectly quite environs or when taking a nap alone with doors and windows tightly shut. The beyer dt770s cut outside noise such that they (in a pinch) can be used as shooter phones at a firing range. Even my wonderful leaf blower partner's seismic productions can't penetrate.

Now the extension cable thing. I have access because of my various businesses to practically every product out there dealing with sound. I've tried recabling the hd650s (Cardas and many others that are all outstanding products) and found them to alter the 650s silky presentation. I returned to the upgraded (newest) stock cable. In my studios I use high quality cabling (Monster/Interlink/Studiolink and such). While not cheap they are a fraction of the cost of the really out there cables that can cost $600 for a one meter cable, and after demoing the latter I found either no sonic difference or some coloration (perhaps more accurately enhancement of frequencies I find annoying to a good recording). Sometimes it is better not to hear everything.

The reason one uses good cable is to get a purer signal. Whether it is between interfaces or speakers/headphones the lower quality the cable one uses the less pure the signal, especially in the very low and very high frequencies. The wider midrange frequencies where most intruments live are less affected by cable quality. By using a lower end extension cable with the senns you get slightly less bass (which almost always inhabits the center of the sound spectrum). Consequently the bass while still beautifully reproduced, is less dominant in the mix allowing one to "hear" or focus on the outer edges of the mix. Depending on the density of the mix (the number of intruments or voices) a good recording/mastering engineer will place each intrument or voice in a slightly differnent location in the 180 degree stereo spectrum. The denser the mix the smaller the required space between each instrument. I tend not to like dense musical mixes but in any case, reducing the bass a bit allows the listener (me) to hear the periphery and local intrument ambience better. An off stage voice or sound or an instrument at the periphery of the mix may sound slightly less rich but can be heard much better at its true location.

I never found an extension cable to "improve" the sound over a direct plug in but paying nearly a grand for a "state of the art" 20' extension cable is only reasonable if signal loss is dramatic and distance from source is required. The DiMarzio I mentioned is 15' and you cannot tell the difference between the direct plug in and the extended sound. It is perfect as far as reproduction and therefore does not increase the space.

Extension cables do change impedance to varying degrees as well as more wire must be traversed which likely accounts for minor (I mean really minor) difference in a good extension cable and a moderately good one. Yes there are really cheap extenders (thin, poorly shielded wire) that will destroy even the best headphone sound but even the high end Radio shack (high end for Radio Shack's world) in 15' or 20 ' will allow the senns to work a little harder on the bass thus widening the perceived spectrum. These acceptable extensions have little effect on midrange and not much on high frequencies as well (I'm referring to frequencies high enough to be considered ambience rather than direct instrument sound). So with such a cable you loose little of the sweetness of the 650s and the outer edges of the mix become more apparent. Any loss in high freq ambience would be more detectable with phones like the dt880 but for some reason even that is balanced by the lower efficiency of the Beyers resulting in the same very wide soundstage they normally produce and not much loss in bottom end. Its all about personal taste as far as listening but I like wide soundstages, realistic ambience, and realistic bass. A question of Balance.

The only thing I might add is that one comment about having to spend $500 on a head amp (esepcially a balanced one) to match the 5001 or 5003 can jack is a bit conservative. Most headamps in that price range (partly because these are not high volume sales and manufacturing items and have less than impressive power supplies) will not have a low noise floor and will exhibit coloration. If you know how you might construct one for that in raw parts but even then the parts may not be easily obtained and the knowledge/experience to build one is as much art as science.

I have the greatest respect for advances in sound reproduction technology and many of those advances came from high end small volume builders. But I worry that the focus on high priced solutions may deter many from enjoying music like never before, with a good can like the Senn or Beyer (and other high impedance offerings) and a simple but good direct from cd player can jack. Take your phones with you when you shop for a cd player as well as your favorite cd. You will be surprised at how many will please. Too bad dvd and universal players have avoided headphone jacks. The sound potential is astounding. I will try to be much more concise in the future but some questions deserve comprehensive answers.

pp312 It appears you're from Australia, I am from Oregon but most of my studio mics are Aussie built Rodes. You guys know sound and value.
 
Aug 1, 2009 at 3:05 AM Post #100 of 111
Nice post, Fingerpick, and now I suspect we know as much about your partner as you do!
smily_headphones1.gif


Not much I need to respond to as you've about covered it all. I'd only remark that I have my doubts about getting a good night's sleep with various dramas playing in your ear; on the other hand my mother leaves talkback radio on all night and she seems none the worse for it.

Your penultimate paragraph puts me in mind of some of the threads here, to which I've voluminously contributed, about the ability of receivers, integrateds and CD players to properly drive high end phones. There's been some heat generated, but also some common sense. Try this one for size:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/usi...ed-amp-329395/
 
Aug 1, 2009 at 3:15 AM Post #101 of 111
Quote:

Originally Posted by SemiAudiophile /img/forum/go_quote.gif
yes...the CD5001 doesn't do well with lower impedance phones. but with the Senns it competes with dedicated amp/dacs in the sub $500 range.



This is actually a very important point. With all the agonising that goes on here about which phones to buy, little is said about the higher impedance phones like Senns being so much easier to match to different amps--and by amps I mean not just dedicated but speaker amps and CD players. This should be, but isn't, a genuine selling point. I've used my Senn 650s with just about everything that lights up and always got a great sound (though of course with the very best stuff the sound is a little greater). I wouldn't guarantee that with a Grado however.
 
Aug 1, 2009 at 7:25 AM Post #102 of 111
PP312

The integrated amp (or a preamp that has phone jacks like my old Yamaha c-65) can have some advantages with many phones. For instance using eq to brighten the Senns a bit will give you more space and you can add bottom end to match. I prefer the natural 650 sound and can't wait to seriously demo the 800 series.

The problem with most integrated amps is that the low and high frequency values for the eq ranges is not always the perfect one, more of a graduated range as you increase eq db settings. The Yamaha preamp I mentioned above has parametrics so you can more precisely dial in the real frequencies you want. EQ added through various loop setups in many amps do well but many are not that quiet for the revelations headphones provide, they work much better for loudspeakers.

Phones like the DT880s though they have a lower impedance spec (250) have also a lower sensitivity. Consequently they are harder to drive than the 650s 300 ohm. In that case the integrated amp will boost the bass of these lovely cans and keep (and perhaps even mellow somewhat) the high necessary for space. In the studio we use power amps, the Masterlink can jack, the Graces and a 5001.

But for additional testing and for pure listening I have, in addition to several old big Sony ES GX 9 and 10s, which though 20 years old still are pristine, I have found Yamaha RX 797 100 watt receiver to be surprisingly good for many of my phones especially with the cd direct activated. Both the old Sonys and the new Yammies have direct connect circuits and for the Senns those are great as they need no EQ. Nonetheless there is some coloration even with the direct connect (again its one more thing for the signal to be affected by and no matter how good - it changes things). All other phones I have be they low or high impedance (and don't forget sensitivity as well) can be set to pretty serious magic with proper eq especially at low volumes. The Senns and DT770PROs are not helped by any of my amps/receivers including the grace dedicated head amps. They like the purest signal and are unique in their simplicity to drive.

As far as hooking up headphones to speaker terminals, I have seen a lot of tragedy. The power surge alone on some amp sections upon power up is enough to blow can transducers. I think the industry would be wise to spend the relatively small amount of extra dough to put good headphone sources with dedicated volume pots in all players, DVD, SACD, Universal, BlueRay. Eventually enough people are going to figure out that for pure listening joy, good cans are very hard to beat even by vastly more expensive speaker/sub systems. And their is nothing private about the sound when driving cabs full of speakers. Those of us that really like to LISTEN do most of it in privacy.

Low impedance phones are rare in the high end sound world though Grado seems to have a following. Not sure what the fans are hearing but I have had several without a single orgasm. They are great for recording though and many pro recordists swear by them. I just swear at them but that is me. A friend at Sweetwater where I buy a lot of studio gear swears by the ATH-M50s. I let him send me a pair. There is no space at all but they are extremely accurate so again for recording just because I like caverns doesn't make it right for all. If I mixed with these the locations of instruments would be spread way to far apart for speakers and most great headphones. I have confimed that most of my favorite recordings were checked by both Beyers 880/770pro and senns 650 (and before 600s) before final mastering was committed too. This practice can be more revealing than the absolutely necessary step of mixin with live speakers as well.

So I'm with you. The higher impedance, if they can be driven will sound better on far simpler equipment than most folks realize. I drive my 650s, and Beyers at times with a Sony portable DVD player (DVP-FX820) and they sound great, nearly as good as the cd5001 and better than many integrated amps which can muddy things up unless direct connect options are available. Again all other phones seems to like and even need the amp color to please me.

As far as the drama/sleep thing, when you have heard programs hundreds of times (and this goes all the way back to the old original star trek tv series and beyond) you become extremely comfortable with the voices of, for want of a better word, "friends" saying what you know they will say each time. Well written dialogue tells the whole story with no visuals. It really can be quite mesmerizing at that stage when your mind won't shut up. Add the immersion of a quality stereo soundstage and its like being there even in REM.
 
Aug 1, 2009 at 10:10 AM Post #103 of 111
Wow what an amazing turn... From almost hating them to starting to spend a lot of money on them. Great it turned out well for you
smily_headphones1.gif
 

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