[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agreed, provided that you use the right materials. Otherwise you place yourself in the unfortunate situation faced by some here where you end up spending more money and a great deal of time to build something that performs not as good as or, at best, only as good as a cheap prebuilt cable.

Your argument assumes that there are sonic differences among materials. As you know, this topic is hotly debated. Without resorting to the so-called experts, who may be that, but who are also unquestionably biased, do you, yourself, perceive a sonic difference?

This thread has encouraged me to build another silver cable this weekend to do a little A/B'ing with my spc and copper cables. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind.

 

[drizek]

How come no one has recorded the headphone out of an amp with a simple copper cable, an spc cable and a silver cable and compared the three files? If there is no difference between the materials, they should all output more or less the same file. If you run the test 5 times for each IC, it will give you a better picture.

And to test for changes in the sound sig, why not run the same test that headroom does on all their phones? Just change the IC and see what happens to the graph. Repeat it a few times to make sure it is consistent.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your argument assumes that there are sonic differences among materials. As you know, this topic is hotly debated. Without resorting to the so-called experts, who may be that, but who are also unquestionably biased, do you, yourself, perceive a sonic difference?

I am sorry, it was my understanding that this discussion was strictly for the benefit of people who can hear differences in cables and had moved beyond that debate. Yes, I realize that there are some people who say that they can't hear differences in cables, but to my mind, that is always going to be result of one or more of the following circumstances: (i) they really don't care if the sound is different, and therefore do not try to hear differences; (ii) they believe that differences are impossible, have stated as much publicly, and as such, even if there is a difference that they can hear, they will never admit to hearing it (plus it's fun to argue about something that cannot be proven outside of the empirical experience of a particular individual); (iii) they have crappy systems that cannot resolve differences in cable sounds; or (iv) their hearing really does legitimately suck.

Because I can hear differences between audio components, including cables, even very slight differences, I have no sympathy for any of the above "problems." Indeed, if someone else can't or won't hear the differences, I look at it as being their problem which has nothing to do with me or my enjoyment of this hobby...(although I do wonder why someone would choose a hobby that is all about hearing if in fact they can't hear).... But whatever!, that's not my problem.

Bottom line, for me, there is no debate and I honestly assumed up to this point that everyone here in the DIY forum was like-minded. I agree, there really isn't anything to discuss among people who are not.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I realize that there are some people who say that they can't hear differences in cables, but to my mind, that is always going to be result of one or more of the following circumstances: (i) they really don't care if the sound is different, and therefore do not try to hear differences; (ii) they believe that differences are impossible, have stated as much publicly, and as such, even if there is a difference that they can hear, they will never admit to hearing it (plus it's fun to argue about something that cannot be proven outside of the empirical experience of a particular individual); (iii) they have crappy systems that cannot resolve differences in cable sounds; or (iv) their hearing really does legitimately suck.

To have any reasonable, meaningful dialogue about this subject, you have to at least allow for the possibility of circumstance (v) people who claim they can hear the difference between cables are demonstrating a placebo effect--basically the inverse of (i) and (ii) above.

Edit: Please note that my suggested addition of (v) does not mean I disagree with (i)-(iv). I readily admit those are possible explanations. And for the sake of full disclosure, I have noticed a difference between my stock Senn cable and my Cardas cable. Or at least I think I have...

 

[ericj]

Oh, sometimes there are audible differences between cables.

I figure 99.9% of that comes down to capacitance. Anywhere from hundreds to thousands of picofarads in the average headphone cable.

I believe that, given identical wire made simply of different materials, there would be no audible difference, and you'd be hard pressed to measure a difference between highly conductive materials. Steel is gonna measure different.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif To have any reasonable, meaningful dialogue about this subject, you have to at least allow for the possibility of circumstance (v) people who claim they can hear the difference between cables are demonstrating a placebo effect--basically the inverse of (i) and (ii) above.

No, I don't have to make such an allowance. And the reason for that is because that isn't my experience. If you want to make that allowance, I'll not try to stop you and more power to you, but don't try to make that shoe fit me. I look at it this way. I can hear differences. Most of the discerning audiophiles with whom I am acquainted also can hear differences. We who can hear like to discuss how to make our sound systems better and we do so by discussing all manner of changes to our systems in the form of tweaks, mods and differences in components. If you are not one of the people who can hear differences, then great, that's fine by me. You can have your own separate discussion about not being able to hear differences with the other few people who can't hear the differences, and do us all a favor and don't try to ruin the fun that we who can hear differences are having with our hobby.

In other words, keep the atheists with the atheists and the believers with the believers. That way, everybody is happy.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I don't have to make such an allowance. And the reason for that is because that isn't my experience.

In other words, you are unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion. I bow out here. Good luck to you.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif In other words, you are unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion. I bow out here. Good luck to you.

Huh? How is it intellectually dishonest to refuse to talk about a subject that goes against the evidence that I have gathered with my own senses? Intellectually honest for me is that cables sound different. That's fine if you want to talk about your perceptions in connection with this subject (or lack thereof), but don't call my perceptions and thoughts on the subject intellectually dishonest. I don't call you intellectually dishonest for your thoughts and perceptions, whatever those are.

 

[drizek]

Just because there is a difference doesnt mean that there is no placebo effect. Taking sugar pill might give you a slight sugar high, but the sideffects people experience from it are more than what a teaspoon of sugar would give you. A certain cable might sound slightly better than another one, and people might detect that. Maybe the cable improves the bass a bit. But you will still have people telling you it has better soundstage, brings out more detail, etc. etc.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Huh? How is it intellectually dishonest to refuse to talk about a subject that goes against the evidence that I have gathered with my own senses? Intellectually honest for me is that cables sound different. That's fine if you want to talk about your perceptions in connection with this subject (or lack thereof), but don't call my perceptions and thoughts on the subject intellectually dishonest. I don't call you intellectually dishonest for your thoughts and perceptions, whatever those are.

That cables sound different to you (and others) is perfectly fine and not in the least bit intellectually dishonest. That you cannot accept the possibility--even for the sake of argument--that perceived sonic differences may owe more to external factors than to conductor material, is.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif That cables sound different to you (and others) is perfectly fine and not in the least bit intellectually dishonest. That you cannot accept the possibility--even for the sake of argument--that perceived sonic differences may owe more to external factors than to conductor material, is.

That's because I have proven it to myself using the scientific method which is one of the more reliable methods of proof and something I have no problem trusting. So at this point what you are asking me to accept is akin to the possibility that gravity doesn't exist or that a compass needle doesn't always point to magnetic north. Those things are possible in the same sense that anything is possible, but in my experience, knowledge and understanding, very unlikely.

Look, I am sorry you can't hear differences in cables, truly I am. But that subject is simply not something that interests me, and I refuse to waste my time discussing it. No offense, but to my mind it is on par with watching grass grow, or a discussion on the level of 'wouldn't it be interesting if blue were really green, and green were really blue?' In a word, boring. And on that note, I think I agree with you, this one is tapped. Unless someone comes along in here and says something interesting again, I think I'll find something else to discuss.

 

[drizek]

The scientific method involves more than just about proving it to yourself. The idea is to prove it to other people by showing them how to replicate your results.

 

[jtizzle]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif No offense, but to my mind it is on par with watching grass grow, or a discussion on the level of 'wouldn't it be interesting if blue were really green, and green were really blue?' In a word, boring.

None taken. Your word of choice more than adequately describes what I think of your response.

 

[jtizzle]

lol, enjoy your SPC!