[jtizzle]

I guess I don't understand why we are in danger of having this thread locked or deleted. The person who started this thread asked if IC's using silver plated copper conductors are okay. People I trust think not and we can infer that the vast majority of the heavy hitters in the cable industry (leaning towards all) agree. Opinions have been voiced going both ways and everyone who has joined in the debate has been civil in discussing this issue. So I don't get why this would be locked or closed.

 

[nikongod]

the mods VERY rarely lock threads in the DIY section.

i vote you keep on digging for the truth here.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by threEchelon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Differences lie in whether the conductors are solid core or stranded and whether the insulator is PVC or Teflon. If you must use CAT5 cable, you'll want to purchase some Teflon insulated and possibly solid core CAT5 cable from Belden.

You should keep in mind here that "Teflon"(tm) is a brand name that DuPont uses to market it's PTFE, PFA, FEP, ETFE, and PVDF fluropolymer plastics.

Back in the day, Teflon(tm) only referred to PTFE, so when we think Teflon(tm), we think Poly Tetra Fluoro-Ethane.

DuPont loves that, as it allows them to sell lesser fluropolymers at an inflated price.

Belden 'teflon'(tm) cables are insulated with DuPont Teflon(tm) brand FEP, not PTFE.

The mil-spec SPC wire on eBay is insulated with PTFE for it's superior dielectric strength and abrasion resistance.

Frankly, I think the reason that cable manufacturers and high-falutin diy cable makers alike deride it is because it is cheap and plentiful, and we all know that the best cables are made of things that cost a buttload of money.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frankly, I think the reason that cable manufacturers and high-falutin diy cable makers alike deride it is because it is cheap and plentiful,

Speaking of nonsense. That's the point of what people like Jon Risch and Chris VenHaus have sought to do from day one, which is to cut through the bs of esoteric and expensive cable designs for the purpose of providing the common man hifi enthusiast with access to the highest possible sound performance as cheaply as possible. If the sound produced by SPC wire was superior in any way to that of pure copper or pure silver wire, they would have no problem whatsoever saying so. None. In fact, many of their designs use wire that can only be described as cheap and plentiful.

The other area where this argument fails to hold water concerns profit. If cable designers can use wire or components in their designs that cost less than other wire or components but that sounds the same as the more expensive component or wire, what do you think they are going to use? The one that costs the most?

 

[ericj]

The thing about mil-spec wire is that it's only cheap as a surplus item. An actual business can't be buying their supplies on ebay.

As for your other point, i think it comes down to how close to telling an outright lie most people are willing to get.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing about mil-spec wire is that it's only cheap as a surplus item. An actual business can't be buying their supplies on ebay.

Do you have any evidence that ebay is the only place one can get this wire at a competitive price? Or that the price at which this wire is available from conventional wire suppliers makes it uneconomical as compared to other wire? I haven't looked in to it, but am going to go out on a limb here and hazard a guess that this wire is cheap relative to other wire on ebay the same as it is cheap relative to other wire from conventional wire suppliers.

I don't know what you mean by people lying.

 

[ericj]

What i'm saying is that the difference between silver bullets and brillaiant pebbles is only a matter of degree.

I'm not saying that everyone who sells high-end cables is lying, I'm sure that due to lack of scientific rigor, some of them believe what they say.

The power of psychology in this is tremendous. One of the basic truths in marketing is that most people are more attracted to the more expensive product, even if the only difference is price.

The most glaring example is Heuer watches. Heuer was a very respectable watch factory with a long history but lackluster sales volume.

A swiss marketing agency called TAG offered them a merger, saying that they had a foolproof marketing plan that would drive their sales through the roof.

Heuer, as we all know now, took the deal.

The plan? Double the price.

That was it. The whole plan.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif The power of psychology in this is tremendous. One of the basic truths in marketing is that most people are more attracted to the more expensive product, even if the only difference is price.

I get what you mean. Kind of like how people are attracted to shiny things like precious metals for no more reason than someone stating that they are better than something not as shiny or precious.

While we are on the subject of cost and ready availability, in my view a discussion about wire for use in interconnects that places cost or availability as first considerations is, IMO, well beside the point. Cost and access are certainly relevant considerations here, and each is a large factor to be considered in choosing wire, but the most relevant consideration for choosing wire ought to be quality, and by that I mean how it sounds. The only thing anyone has said about that in nearly four pages of discussion is "it's just fine" and/or "it's good enough."

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtizzle /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only thing anyone has said about that in nearly four pages of discussion is "it's just fine" and/or "it's good enough."

There is a school of thought wherein "good enough" is all there is other than "awful".

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is a school of thought wherein "good enough" is all there is other than "awful".

And that's the hardest thing to comprehend in all of this. If no one cares about what is coming out of these DIY cables in terms of sound, and they make no improvement over interconnects from, say, Radio Shack, then why go to the trouble and additional expense of building them yourself? Just so you could say you did it and it was fun? That's an honest question because I really can't see any other point in it.

 

[ericj]

More durable, custom length, particular preference in cable weight & feel.

I made my own 1/4" socket to 1/8" plug adapter because i needed a 1/8" plug with a particular diameter barrel, and i wanted a good 7 inches or so of fairly light-weight cable on it, and neither the sennheiser nor grado cables meet my needs.

And then on the other hand, I used shielded twisted pair 22awg SPC wire for my 20-foot-long headphone extension cable 'cause i have so friggin much of it. Works great.

 

[drizek]

First, about the SPC cable from navships,

I posted earlier here that I emailed him asking to change from 28awg to 26awg. He just emailed me and said that he would give me the 26awg and I shouldnt worry about the price difference. Its only about 50cents or so, but it is still nice of him to do it.

As for why i'm building my own cable,

First of all, beyond just the "fun" of it, it is a good way to get some experience. I want to build an amp and I need some practice with a soldering iron and a multimeter.

Second, like eric said, it lets you build cables that perfectly match what they are being used for. For my DAP/Amp I need R/A plugs, my amp came with straight ones. For my Desktop, I need a longer cable that will reach my desk. Having a braid makes it look pretty, and overall the DIY cables will be more durable than what you get with stock cables.

As for DIY vs prebuilt "high end" cables, first off the price difference is huge. I spent more on my multimeter, wire stripper and soldering iron than I did for cables and connectors, but I will be using all these tools later on for an amp and other projects. As for the materials themselves, they cost $40(about $10 of that is just shipping costs and taxes), which is pretty close to what a prebuilt mini-mini sells for. That $40 goes towards building a small mini-mini, a 7-foot long mini-mini and reterminating my three headphones. I am also considering buying the HD650 cable for my 580, and if I do that I will also have a plug/jack to turn the 10ft 580 cable into an extension cable for watching TV.

 

[AudioCats]

I didn't think I can hear the difference between cables, but it turned out I really can, and easily. This is not a good thing

one more area to spend my money........

 

[threEchelon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioCats /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't think I can hear the difference between cables, but it turned out I really can, and easily. This is not a good thing one more area to spend my money........

But, you can make cables as good as many high-end ones through DIY and for much cheaper.

 

[jtizzle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by threEchelon /img/forum/go_quote.gif But, you can make cables as good as many high-end ones through DIY and for much cheaper.

Agreed, provided that you use the right materials. Otherwise you place yourself in the unfortunate situation faced by some here where you end up spending more money and a great deal of time to build something that performs not as good as or, at best, only as good as a cheap prebuilt cable.