[doping panda]

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Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif To all those people touting the "measurements" as though they were gospel, can you please show me 5 or 6 examples of DAC's or CD players that all "measure exactly the same" as you claim they do? Preferably spanning a broad range of prices from $100 to $2000 to demonstrate your theory that so long as they are not defective they will sound exactly the same. You guys have stated several times that there are many that measure exactly the same and therefore sound exactly the same, so you should have no trouble giving several examples of these DAC's and CD players that measure and sound exactly the same, right? Also, for clarification, what "measurements" are you referring to exactly? As far as I can tell nobody has explained what measurements you're talking about.

Their argument isn't that all DACs and CD payers measure the same, but that their measurements are not audibly different. Because the difference in measurements are not audibly different, then the the sound will not be audibly different. An example of these measurements would be RMAA measurements.

I'm not picking out a side on this issue until I verify whether or not there is a difference myself between competent DACs. I'm just pointing out a flaw in your argument.

 

[Bmac]

I don't think my argument is flawed. They previously stated that unless a player or DAC is defective (ie. not enough current, high distortion) they will sound exactly the same, which by their logic means they will measure the same. In their words a Fischer Price CDP will sound the same as an Esoteric. I'm just asking for some examples and which measurements specifically they are referring to.

 

[Shike]

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Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think my argument is flawed.

It is, but we'll get to that.

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They previously stated that unless a player or DAC is defective (ie. not enough current, high distortion) they will sound exactly the same

Correct.

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, which by their logic means they will measure the same.

No, it means both measure beyond audible limits. There is a difference.

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In their words a Fischer Price CDP will sound the same as an Esoteric.

If nothing is deficient that's usually the case. Arguably, if Fisher Price were to make a CDP it would probably have some deficiencies.

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I'm just asking for some examples and which measurements specifically they are referring to.

No you're not. What you're trying to do is strip the argument of any context. Doping Panda was able to figure it out . . . why can't you?

 

[doping panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think my argument is flawed. They previously stated that unless a player or DAC is defective (ie. not enough current, high distortion) they will sound exactly the same, which by their logic means they will measure the same. In their words a Fischer Price CDP will sound the same as an Esoteric. I'm just asking for some examples and which measurements specifically they are referring to.

Just because something sounds exactly the same, it doesn't necessarily measure exactly the same. The argument is DACs and digital players sound the same provided that they are competent because the differences in measurements are minute enough to be inaudible. For example, the Benchmark measures better than pretty much anything, but a few in this topic have said that there would be little to no difference between a Benchmark and a cheaper, but still competent DAC. This is because they claim differences in measurements are too small to be heard, not because there is no difference in measurement. This is an important distinction because if they do show graphs that measure slightly differently you cannot jump on their throats saying that the DACs or players must sound different because of the slight difference in measurements. However, this also means that those claiming that there are no differences in sound between players and DACs must provide proof or at least reasons why the differences in measurements are truly inaudible.

 

[SmellyGas]

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Originally Posted by Covenant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Take a close look at the caption of yours I quoted, and take another look at this blurb of "I bet he can't meet all of my criteria". I've done A/B comparisons at meets where I have not known which item was being played at any one point in time, with another head-fi'er switching them for me (and vice versa). Which is exactly the scenario you portrayed as not likely to happen in meet environments.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Did you level match? nope. Did you do more than 10 trials? Doubt it. So are your results scientifically useful? Nope!!

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I'm in this hobby for subjective enjoyment, not to satisfy your particular brand of paranoia.

I have no doubt you think my "criteria" list equates to "paranoia." Perhaps it might interest you to know that that list was the BARE MINIMUM you would need to perform even the most basic and useful scientific experiment. Furthermore, the blind listening tests published by Audio and Stereo Review that failed to show audible differences in amps and DAC's EXCEEDED the criteria list I provided - and these are audio magazines, mind you, not scientific journals.

So bottom line - you may have gone to a meet and done a hasty A/B comparison, but just as I suspected, you didn't come anywhere near performing a controlled A/B test that could yield meaningful data.

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, I have no reason to believe you wouldn't crap on his findings based on his hearing, as you've tried it already.

In his first post he said there is nothing better than a computer soundcard, and I for one have heard a huge difference between a soundcard and a cheap amp/DAC, therefore I put his 'findings' second to what I've heard first hand. This however shouldn't be confused with if he does an A/B between a soundcard and say a Benchmark DAC1 at a meet, however this is all just talk and speculation.

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Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, the "it's all a scam" may not be too far from the truth to some extent.

Which was the bases of my discussion right from the beginning. I've been through a few pairs of headphones, both SS and tube amps of considerable value yet I haven't been 'wowed' until I picked up the Zero DAC. So my experience has told me there is little between headphones, I don't value say a $300 Denon D2000 compared to a favorable JVC RX700 at $33. So to reiterate I've had better experiences with different amp/DACs than I have with headphones, further more if I were to suggest to someone what to do with $200 I would from my own experience say pickup an amp/DAC and spend the remainder on a cheap pair of headphones, SmellyGas' side would most likely be spend $200 on headphones and forget the source.

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Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the other hand, there's substantial differences in frequency response from one can to another . . . at least outside of brand. If you were to say a Grado sounds like a Sennheiser HD650 we may have a bit of a problem.

I agree, but on the flip side said headphones would improve on an amp/DAC than connected directly to the soundcard, again as SmellyGas disagrees with from his initial post. Funnily enough if you look at the science of the headphones, the frequency graph of the Grado SR 60 (i think it is) looks identical to that of Denon D5000 however I'm sure we'd all agree they 'sound' completely different.

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Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Graphicism, you may hear no difference between your Zero and the Beresford. You may think it is well worth the money. Order the Beresford, set up a blind test for yourself, and find out. If you don't hear a difference, send the Beresford back. If that's impractical (international shipping?), find a used Beresford at a decent price and if it doesn't bump your Zero, sell it.

Seems when people buy the Beresford they keep it, haven't seen any on sale in a long long time which is a good indicator. I suppose I could try it for the cost of shipping, however if it sounds better I'll then be looking to upgrade thinking there is something out there that sounds better still... alternatively if it doesn't sound better I'll think I have the be-all and end-all of amps in my $150 Zero... either way I don't think I'd ever be content.

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Originally Posted by Bmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif To all those people touting the "measurements" as though they were gospel, can you please show me 5 or 6 examples of DAC's or CD players that all "measure exactly the same" as you claim they do?

I think these are just the opinions of said people, no charts or comparisons exist, it's all speculative which is surprising since the article was published back in 1998.

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, that's what I thought. Did you level match? nope. Did you do more than 10 trials? Doubt it. So are your results scientifically useful? Nope!!

So this 'criteria' that must be met for you to be 'happy' with the results wasn't met because it was repeated 10 times over under a controlled environment, yet you aren't confident enough to do this yourself at a meet in fear of your own life.

• So let me ask you, in all honesty, what bare minimum, (be it DIY or affordable at retail) would you put on the table to do an A/B with some of the best amp/DACs available. ??

 

[SmellyGas]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif In his first post he said there is nothing better than a computer soundcard,

Nobody has said that there is nothing better than a computer sound card. You seem to be misquoting many many people here, and it makes communicating with you difficult. Make I kindly suggest that you go back in the thread and READ what was originally said or QUOTE what was originally said? Thanks.

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Funnily enough if you look at the science of the headphones, the frequency graph of the Grado SR 60 (i think it is) looks identical to that of Denon D5000 however I'm sure we'd all agree they 'sound' completely different.

I just checked the frequency response graph on headphone.com of the SR60 and the D5000. THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The Grado is -5dB at 20Hz, a +3dB peak at 2-3khz, and lacks a -7dB dip ~16khz. These are HUGE differences, and this is on a smoothed graph. You should be ASHAMED of yourself for making up a "fact" to try to prove a point. What's WRONG with you???

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Seems when people buy the Beresford they keep it, haven't seen any on sale in a long long time which is a good indicator. I suppose I could try it for the cost of shipping, however if it sounds better I'll then be looking to upgrade thinking there is something out there that sounds better still... alternatively if it doesn't sound better I'll think I have the be-all and end-all of amps in my $150 Zero... either way I don't think I'd ever be content.

I've measured my Beresford on RMAA. It measures pretty flat and quiet. The only problem I have with is about 0.01% IMD, which about 5-10x higher than my other equipment. Is this audible? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not.

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So this 'criteria' that must be met for you to be 'happy' with the results wasn't met because it was repeated 10 times over under a controlled environment,

These criteria are not MY criteria. They are very basic, elementary, REQUIREMENTS to produce statistically useful data. I can tell you have absolutely no background in science or experimental design, which is fine, but you don't lend yourself credibility when you pretend that you do.

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yet you aren't confident enough to do this yourself at a meet in fear of your own life.

This response is so nonsensical, I don't even know how to respond. First of all, nobody has invited me to perform a double-blind test at a meet, and even if they did, if I could NOT tell the difference between two pieces of equipment, how would that help? What you would need is someone like YOU, who THINKS there is a difference and show you that you cannot distinguish between two pieces of equipment when we blind you.

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• So let me ask you, in all honesty, what bare minimum, (be it DIY or affordable at retail) would you put on the table to do an A/B with some of the best amp/DACs available. ??

This question is also nonsensical. IF you bothered to read and understand everything I've written, as well as the redundant explanations by several others who were capable of reading and understanding, for the billionth time, if two pieces of equipment have sufficiently similar measurements in freq response, distortion, and noise, under appropriate conditions, they shoudl sound the same. Price is irrelevant.

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nobody has said that there is nothing better than a computer sound card. You seem to be misquoting many many people here, and it makes communicating with you difficult. Make I kindly suggest that you go back in the thread and READ what was originally said or QUOTE what was originally said? Thanks.

It's on the first page, go back and read your reply.

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif This response is so nonsensical, I don't even know how to respond. First of all, nobody has invited me to perform a double-blind test at a meet, and even if they did, if I could NOT tell the difference between two pieces of equipment, how would that help? What you would need is someone like YOU, who THINKS there is a difference and show you that you cannot distinguish between two pieces of equipment when we blind you.

Aww bless your cotton socks love, no ones invited you? ... why has no one invited SmellyGas to a meet? You're asking how would it help if no one could differentiate between an $80 sound card and a $20,000 hifi system? or perhaps between a $100 DAC and a $1,000 DAC and your asking what would this prove?... what?

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Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif This question is also nonsensical. IF you bothered to read and understand everything I've written, as well as the redundant explanations by several others who were capable of reading and understanding, for the billionth time, if two pieces of equipment have sufficiently similar measurements in freq response, distortion, and noise, under appropriate conditions, they should sound the same. Price is irrelevant.

I'm not asking for your speech over and over again, I'm asking what peace of equipment would hold up to the very best amp/DACs on offer... surely you must have an answer for this. Why is this so hard for you to answer, what soundcard, CMOY, amp whatever it takes... what is the cheapest thing I can buy that someone who was blinded folded wouldn't be able to tell a difference between.

 

[xnor]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Funnily enough if you look at the science of the headphones, the frequency graph of the Grado SR 60 (i think it is) looks identical to that of Denon D5000 however I'm sure we'd all agree they 'sound' completely different.

Yes it's funny to see that you seem to think very one-dimensional.
Do you also compare amps by looking at the FR charts only? Good luck then.

Seriously.. what's wrong?

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif if two pieces of equipment have sufficiently similar measurements in freq response, distortion, and noise, under appropriate conditions, they shoudl sound the same. Price is irrelevant.

I'd like to push for an answer here, so to make it easy... We are at a meet, there is a Zana Duex on the table along with your equipment and a blindfold, what is your equipment you put forth?

vs

(Enter your cheapest contender here)

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes it's funny to see that you seem to think very one-dimensional. Do you also compare amps by looking at the FR charts only? Good luck then. Seriously.. what's wrong?

Read the entire thread and catch up, I'm the one saying you can't tell from 'FR charts', science means nothing it's the sound etc. And I can't remember what two headphones looked identical, I was pretty sure it was a cheap Grado and a D5000. I'll have to try find it.

 

[xnor]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's on the first page, go back and read your reply.

And I'm queen Elisabeth.

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You're asking how would it help if no one could differentiate between an $80 sound card and a $20,000 hifi system? or perhaps between a $100 DAC and a $1,000 DAC and your asking what would this prove?... what?

Stop the nonsense!

 

[AtomikPi]

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's on the first page, go back and read your reply. [snip] what is the cheapest thing I can buy that someone who was blinded folded wouldn't be able to tell a difference between.

I'm not going to speak for smellygas, but some generally well measuring headphone amps are the cute beyond for low impedance phones and the presonus hp4 for higher impedance 'phones (higher power, higher output impedance). The EMU0404 USB has already been mentioned as a low cost yet nearly perfectly measuring DAC (almost as good as the DAC1).

edit: also these are both ss components; comparisons to tube may reveal differences because tubes often have higher levels of THD. If you compared these to your favorite high end dac with your favorite high end SS amp though with something other than K1000's I suspect there would be no audible difference.

 

[Graphicism]

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Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not going to speak for smellygas, but some generally well measuring headphone amps are the cute beyond for low impedance phones and the presonus hp4 for higher impedance 'phones (higher power, higher output impedance). The EMU0404 USB has already been mentioned as a low cost yet nearly perfectly measuring DAC (almost as good as the DAC1).

So would it be a fair comparison to do a blind test between the EMU 0404 ($90) and the Grace m902 ($1,600) with lets say a variety of headphones; D2000, HD 800, K701, etc ~ perhaps even EMU 0404 + presonus hp4 if lack of power is an issue...

 

[SmellyGas]

I want to highlight the fact that Graphicism completely fabricated a piece of information in order to support his argument:

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Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Funnily enough if you look at the science of the headphones, the frequency graph of the Grado SR 60 (i think it is) looks identical to that of Denon D5000 however I'm sure we'd all agree they 'sound' completely different.

I just checked the frequency response graph on headphone.com of the SR60 and the D5000. THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The Grado is -5dB at 20Hz, a +3dB peak at 2-3khz, and lacks a -7dB dip ~16khz. These are HUGE differences, and this is on a smoothed graph. You should be ASHAMED of yourself for making up a "fact" to try to prove a point.

Can I ask you some questions?
Why did you make up data to try and support your point? Are you really that desperate to be right? Do you think it is a hypocritical of you to completely fabricate data, then turn around and demand that others provide you with data to support their points? Do you think it is helpful or hurtful to your viewpoint when you have to make up data to support it?