[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well why is it you think this wouldn't happen, it doesn't sound far-fetched at all, in fact I would imagine that's exactly what does happen. I'd appreciate it if some guys that have been to meets could chime in on whether you do blind tests with equipment and the obvious question if not, why not?

Why don't you just go to a meet. I think you'd fit right in.

Quote:

SmellyGas; you said you have 'tricked' people with an expensive looking amp only to reveal a cmoy, yet you talk as if you have never been to a meet, so how exactly did this take place?

Do me a favor, please re-read the post in this thread where I referred to a CMOY - either you misread it, or there's a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not even sure if you know what the world "troll" means because you keep misapplying it. Having an evidence-based and scientific-based approach to audio does not make someone a "troll."

I would think the term troll has been used because of the general onslaught of audio hatred has no grounds, people are just clutching at straws for the sake of arguing.

This all started when Ntropic said his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming, you're response SmellyGas was "The reality is that the source and amp don't make dramatic differences in sound quality" and went on to say "You might even be tempted to upgrade your source/amp, only to find that it sounds....exact the same."

Now Shike joined in singing the same tune yet also said despite his expensive audio equipment said "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" which costs close to $1,000, considerably a lot more than the iBasso D2 Boa.

So something is a miss, either your initial statement of upgrading and finding it to sound the same was flat out wrong or Shike has completely lost the mark and is just causing problems.

Would you care to clarify?

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thought this deserved attention too. I present to you, the Gaincard. Many were tripping over themselves with this amp . . . which is based on a simple opamp circuit. I for one have nothing against them (opamps), but it's an example of a cheap design arguably making fools of people.

On that note, I think it's hilarious how much praise the $450 Grado RA-1 headphone amp received:
RA1
...Editor's Choice from The Absolute Sound. Stunning reviews from Audio magazine, Positive Feedback, and Inner Ear Magazine. People marveled at how the Grado RA-1 really made the Grado headphones sing.

OOOOOPS, wait, once you open it up, it's basically a ....[wait for it]...CMOY...except CMOY's are superior because people usually drop in high-end OPAMPS.

DIY Audio Projects - Hi-Fi Blog for Audiophiles: Grado RA1 Headphone Amplifier

And this, my friends, is why you need blinded, level-matched, A/B listening tests. End of discussion.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif This all started when Ntropic said his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming, you're response SmellyGas was "The reality is that the source and amp don't make dramatic differences in sound quality" and went on to say "You might even be tempted to upgrade your source/amp, only to find that it sounds....exact the same."

...and what truthful and helpful advice that was. Someone should pat that SmellyGas fellow on the back.

Quote:

Now Shike joined in singing the same tune yet also said despite his expensive audio equipment said "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" which costs close to $1,000, considerably a lot more than the iBasso D2 Boa.

Hey, if I could find a good deal on the DAC1, I'd pick one up too, mostly for the bragging rights. If you tell someone you have the DAC1, they so "yo, man, respect." Plus, it might be fun to measure. I would probably pluck out the NE5534's and pop in some manlier opamps, though.

Did you know that I also buy designer cables? It's because they look nice. I look at them and say, woh, those are some NICE cables. Seriously. Plus, I like the way they fit securely when I plug/unplug them. No joke.

 

[AtomikPi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif This all started when Ntropic said his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming, you're response SmellyGas was "The reality is that the source and amp don't make dramatic differences in sound quality" and went on to say "You might even be tempted to upgrade your source/amp, only to find that it sounds....exact the same."

To me it seems logical that if someone does not appreciate an upgrade, it would make sense for others to try to explain that. The reality is that the hyperbolic imagery used to describe amplifiers and DACs on head-fi is extremely overblown and makes people instinctively reach for electronics that cost more than their headphones when they could achieve higher sound quality with somethings much cheaper combined with better 'phones. There's no trolling involved. He didn't pop up in a music thread and say "btw guys, amp and dac don't matter."

I think at the bare minimum it's clear both subjectively and objectively that headphones make more difference than any other component although I know you are one who may disagree.

Also, to smellygas and other skeptics - I would suggest you do go to meets, both for the sake of listening to headphones, and you can of course listen to other things although I'm not sure if anyone has done DBT at a meet before. You can certainly level match if you're doing it roughly by SPL meter.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif This all started when Ntropic said his iBasso D2 Boa was underwhelming, you're response SmellyGas was "The reality is that the source and amp don't make dramatic differences in sound quality" and went on to say "You might even be tempted to upgrade your source/amp, only to find that it sounds....exact the same."

He's right though. Under the assumption that there's no issues with the DAC in terms of reproductive quality you may find absolutely no difference between the two. I'm not sure on the quality of the D2 BOA, but if it'd done properly he has just as much of a chance as buying an expensive downgrade as he does that something performs exactly identical.

Quote:

Now Shike joined in singing the same tune yet also said despite his expensive audio equipment said "I would have been fine with a Benchmark DAC1" which costs close to $1,000, considerably a lot more than the iBasso D2 Boa.

You haven't read any of my later posts. I also said an EMU 0404 would sound much the same if not identical, but wouldn't have nearly the amount of inputs or general construction quality.

Quote:

So something is a miss, either your initial statement of upgrading and finding it to sound the same was flat out wrong or Shike has completely lost the mark and is just causing problems.

Or you can't read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas Hey, if I could find a good deal on the DAC1, I'd pick one up too, mostly for the bragging rights. If you tell someone you have the DAC1, they so "yo, man, respect." Plus, it might be fun to measure. I would probably pluck out the NE5534's and pop in some manlier opamps, though.

It's actually a Cary Audio Xciter I have. It uses solid metal can opamps they had National design, there's no need to change or fix anything on it AFAIK.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, to smellygas and other skeptics - I would suggest you do go to meets, both for the sake of listening to headphones, and you can of course listen to other things

Um, that's okay. That's a good way to end up on the missing person's list, only to be found weeks later in a drainage ditch with a headphone cable wrapped around your neck.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...and what truthful and helpful advice that was. Someone should pat that SmellyGas fellow on the back. Hey, if I could find a good deal on the DAC1, I'd pick one up too, mostly for the bragging rights. ... Did you know that I also buy designer cables? It's because they look nice. ...

What a cunning way to respond to a question without answering it, pat yourself on the back for that one too SmellyGas.

I will bullet point a question and add double ?? to help you respond.

• So to confirm your twisted way of saying things; the D2 Boa Sounds the same, maybe slightly better, maybe slightly worse than DAC1??
• All cables, copper, silver, fiber, glass sound exactly the same and only look different??
• What headphone equipment do you own, Source/Amp/DAC wise??

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's no trolling involved. He didn't pop up in a music thread and say "btw guys, amp and dac don't matter."

Then perhaps the better term would be idiot? troll is just a nicer general way of saying it. Shike has been called a troll because he has the expesive equipment while saying the $80 alternative sounds just as good, he isn't putting his money where his mouth is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif You haven't read any of my later posts. I also said an EMU 0404 would sound much the same if not identical, but wouldn't have nearly the amount of inputs or general construction quality.

But that isn't what you have, you have serparate DAC/Amps worth much more than the EMU 0404... if the 0404 sounds identical why do you own the other stuff and say things like you would 'make do' with a DAC1, you make no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Um, that's okay. That's a good way to end up on the missing person's list, only to be found weeks later in a drainage ditch with a headphone cable wrapped around your neck.

What a chicken, sat behind his computer screen with his know-it-all attitude yet has never been to a meet and has most likely never heard half of what he's bashing. Put your money where your mouth is SmellyGas, your words mean little, setup an A/B ... I double dare you, chicken!

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif But that isn't what you have, you have serparate DAC/Amps worth much more than the EMU 0404... if the 0404 sounds identical why do you own the other stuff and say things like you would 'make do' with a DAC1, you make no sense.

The EMU 0404 has issues that I didn't want to deal with. Picky USB latency, iffy driver support at the time I was looking at it, and lower construction quality. While the specifications and sound are good . . . these are issues I just don't want to deal with.

I didn't want to have to deal with the chance it may not work with a system if I change or upgrade, that the drivers may have bugs, or a part failing due to said construction.

I got something I might need serviced on occasion, but not fully replace if something goes wrong (a solid three year warranty backs it). I basically got convenience with my DAC. You do realise that convenience is also considered a commodity in this day and age, right?

Quote:

has most likely never heard half of what he's bashing. Put your money where your mouth is SmellyGas, your words mean little, setup an A/B ... I double dare you, chicken!

You're assuming, and being a real horse's patute about it. Even worse, if he did A/B you would probably attack his hearing like you've tried in this thread once already. What's the point?

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif The EMU 0404 has issues that I didn't want to deal with. Picky USB latency, iffy driver support at the time I was looking at it, and lower construction quality. While the specifications and sound are good . . . these are issues I just don't want to deal with.

So you would say your source/amp/DAC which cost's $x,xxx is the bare minumum for a trouble-free sound, spending any less wouldn't yield the same quality in sound or be plagued with problems... spending any more would be pointless?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're assuming, and being a real horse's patute about it. Even worse, if he did A/B you would probably attack his hearing like you've tried in this thread once already. What's the point?

You're also assuming, and being a real male chicken about it. I'm not a big spender and would want nothing more than this to be confirmed.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you would say your source/amp/DAC which cost's $x,xxx is the bare minumum for a trouble-free sound, spending any less wouldn't yield the same quality in sound or be plagued with problems... spending any more would be pointless?

As I said, there was also the DAC1. Six and half a dozen of another. I'm not sure what the cheapest thing I'd accept would be. Beresford crossed my mind, but after he got caught shilling I can't say I'd trust doing business with him (not to mention refusing to list parts used). There's some Chinese DACs, but once again . . . quality, warranty, etc . . . all up for debate.

Quote:

You're also assuming, and being a real male chicken about it. I'm not a big spender and would want nothing more than this to be confirmed.

What am I assuming? I've heard the 0404 before and didn't hear any major (or subtle for the matter) differences between the two. It was also too short of a time for me to even think of it as a true comparison. It wasn't in a scientific context, was based on subjective listening which I despise, and would require you to trust my ears too. I'm not a hypocrite, and as such don't expect you to take my word for it. I do believe measurements tell you a lot of the story though, given they're done correctly.

Maybe you're referencing that I said you'd probably attack his hearing a second time? It's not an assumption when you have a precedent to go off of . . .

It's obvious you don't trust our ears, science, or anything else we put in front of you. The only way you're going to be convinced is if you do level matched double blind studies on yourself, and then if your findings are the same I bet someone will question your hearing too. Anything else and you will make an excuse that allows you to deny what we put in front of you throwing us into a circular argument again (as far as the pattern in this thread shows).

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I said, there was also the DAC1. Six and half a dozen of another. I'm not sure what the cheapest thing I'd accept would be. Beresford crossed my mind, but after he got caught shilling I can't say I'd trust doing business with him (not to mention refusing to list parts used). There's some Chinese DACs, but once again . . . quality, warranty, etc . . . all up for debate. What am I assuming? ...

Funnily enough I've been thinking about the Beresford as an upgrade to my Zero, but then whats to say it's any better after all this talk. From SmellyGas' initial reply it would lead you believe there is nothing better than an Audigy 2ZS, however I can attest there is a huge difference going from zune/av710 to the Zero and can only trust my ears with this finding. As far as the crap Beresford got caught doing I'll take with a pinch of salt, I'm sure all manufacturers do it one way or another... perhaps this self promotion kept an otherwise $1,000 DAC down to an affordable $250 as there were no advertising costs. I'm sure you're aware it's not particularly hard to pay people to review said products and say good things about them.

And you're assuming that should SmellyGas do an A/B at a meet I'll poo-poo it like I have seemingly with everything else he's put forth. However I'll say again I'm hardly one for buying expensive equipment and would hold such a test in higher regards than some test done 10 years ago where 6 or 7 people were allegedly payed $20 for.

My main quibble if you will is singling out the source/amp/DAC as the con and not the $1500 headphone, if anything it's all a scam or it's the minor changes in sound way pay top dollar for.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as the crap Beresford got caught doing I'll take with a pinch of salt, I'm sure all manufacturers do it one way or another... perhaps this self promotion kept an otherwise $1,000 DAC down to an affordable $250 as there were no advertising costs. I'm sure you're aware it's not particularly hard to pay people to review said products and say good things about them.

Yes, there's tons of shills. That's probably one reason I prefer real measurements to subjectivity too.

Quote:

And you're assuming that should SmellyGas do an A/B at a meet I'll poo-poo it like I have seemingly with everything else he's put forth. However I'll say again I'm hardly one for buying expensive equipment and would hold such a test in higher regards than some test done 10 years ago where 6 or 7 people were allegedly payed $20 for.

Here's the problem, his hearing isn't your hearing. This can be used to make a scape goat. If you legitimately want to cut through the crap then it's going to take your ears, as there's probably no other way to convince you.

Also, I have no reason to believe you wouldn't crap on his findings based on his hearing, as you've tried it already.

Quote:

My main quibble if you will is singling out the source/amp/DAC as the con and not the $1500 headphone, if anything it's all a scam or it's the minor changes in sound way pay top dollar for.

Actually, the "it's all a scam" may not be too far from the truth to some extent. Headphones used to be a better bang for the buck . . . prices keep climbing though for little to no reason. The HD800 is an odd duck for a few reasons, but within reason you're right.

On the other hand, there's substantial differences in frequency response from one can to another . . . at least outside of brand. If you were to say a Grado sounds like a Sennheiser HD650 we may have a bit of a problem.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Shike seems to be handling this one just fine, so I'll just say...Graphicism, you may hear no difference between your Zero and the Beresford. You may think it is well worth the money. Order the Beresford, set up a blind test for yourself, and find out. If you don't hear a difference, send the Beresford back. If that's impractical (international shipping?), find a used Beresford at a decent price and if it doesn't bump your Zero, sell it.

Reading opinions that disagree with your own clearly upsets you. DIY, brother.

P

 

[Bmac]

To all those people touting the "measurements" as though they were gospel, can you please show me 5 or 6 examples of DAC's or CD players that all "measure exactly the same" as you claim they do? Preferably spanning a broad range of prices from $100 to $2000 to demonstrate your theory that so long as they are not defective they will sound exactly the same.

You guys have stated several times that there are many that measure exactly the same and therefore sound exactly the same, so you should have no trouble giving several examples of these DAC's and CD players that measure and sound exactly the same, right?

Also, for clarification, what "measurements" are you referring to exactly? As far as I can tell nobody has explained what measurements you're talking about.