MSB Analog DAC? (Review p3)

[Yoga]

  Here is my review of Analog Dac with the Quad USB Input:
 
http://headmania.org/2015/11/01/msb-analog-dac-quad-usb-input-review/
 
Also, here is my review of the custom LPS for MSB from Volent Audio (Ben Lau):
 
http://headmania.org/2015/11/01/volent-audio-custom-lps-for-msb-analog-dac/

Nice review!
 
Looking forward to heating the Analog + Quad tomorrow with @negura. PSU looks like a bit of a bargain, especially if it does indeed perform better than the MSB upgraded power base.

 

[dan.gheorghe]

 
Nice review!
 
Looking forward to heating the Analog + Quad tomorrow with @negura. PSU looks like a bit of a bargain, especially if it does indeed perform better than the MSB upgraded power base.

Thank you.  Indeed. Pitty I didn't have one to hear them side by side. However, even if the PSU from Volent isn't better than the upgrade from MSB, it is still much better than the stock psu that comes with Analog DAC.

 

[Yoga]

  Thank you.  Indeed. Pitty I didn't have one to hear them side by side. However, even if the PSU from Volent isn't better than the upgrade from MSB, it is still much better than the stock psu that comes with Analog DAC.

As you say, the inherent grounding is also a great addition. Tempting :¬)

 

[Yoga]

@dan.gheorghe - how does the Rockna Wavedream compare to the upgraded (Quad and 1.7 FW) Analog?

 

[ccschua]

the power supply is indeed very high quality workmanship.the huge R core is also very beneficial to the overall isolation of the outside world.
 
I wonder what is the output given to the DAC ? 2 group of 5V and 2 group of 12V ?

 

[dan.gheorghe]

  @dan.gheorghe - how does the Rockna Wavedream compare to the upgraded (Quad and 1.7 FW) Analog?

I don't have one for direct comparison. I think that analog + quad would be better than the old wavedream.
 
There is an upgraded wavedream on the market now which I didn't hear yet. They replaced the MSB DAC chips with their own which look and measure really really sexy:
 
https://www.facebook.com/rockna.audio/photos/ms.c.eJwzNLA0NTYxM7YwMDG3MDU31DOECJiYG1sYGlpYmgIAckkGwA~-~-.bps.a.1092715830741626.1073741827.173598382653380/1095346380478571/?type=3&theater
 
The Rockna DAC chips use FPGA technology.
 
http://www.rockna-audio.com/products/wavedream-dac
 

 

D/A CONVERSION

For the effective D/A conversion stage we developed dedicated dac modules called RD-0 (used in Signature – 27 bit structure) and RD-1 (used in Edition – 26 bit structure). Modules themselves are complex pieces of technology, sharing a discrete sign-magnitude hybrid ladder topology, driven by a complex algorythm which is embedded into their own FPGA. Therefore the dac modules firmware is updatable both performance and feature-wise. Currently RD-0/1 can sustain a maximum sample rate of 6 MHz, which is the industry’s maximum sample rate specified for a audio dac. The output of the dac modules is un-buffered, allowing maximum transparency and natural sound reproduction.

 

[Yoga]

Nice indeed! Shame there are zero reviews of the MKII.
 
FWIW - here's the TotalDAC measurements:
 

 
Would love to hear the Waveform MKII.

 

[dan.gheorghe]

 

 
Indeed. I know of the measurements of Total DAC. It sure does measure great! I've recently read something about the effective number of bits and total dac. DBFS should reflect the ENOB and Total dac should be in the same class with DAC V in this regard, but some said that the ENOB is smaller at total dac (14 if I remember corectly).
 
I didn't get how this is possible. If that is correct, the dbfs measurements should be considerably smaller (approximately 90db). Does anybody know more about this?

 

[Yoga]

   

@negura and @romaz were chatting about this in the TotalDAC thread. Head over there for a read, an interesting discussion.

 

[Yoga]

At some point I'll write a full report, but just as a quick heads up, @negura (Raz) kindly hosted an MSB (vs Moon) listening session at his house today.
 
The key things I've discovered about it (ignoring headphones - Abyss and modded HE-6):
 
1) The Analog DAC is fantastic. Very organic and smooth while maintaining resolving power. No digital hiss (which lends for a much blacker background; better dynamics, stage etc).
 
2) The Signature stack with UMT transport over I2S is *absolutely sublime*. I wish I hadn't heard it. Goosebump material - the music sounded so real. Fluid, natural, effortless. I now understand what people mean by that. It was alive.
 
3) The difference between the Signature stack + UMT over both I2S and coax is significant. I2S is something else. Can't wait to hear the Network Renderer for the Analog. Could be a piece of magic.

(We used speakers for Signature stack listening.)
 
4) The difference between Raz's EC 2A3 MK4 setup and the Moon 430HAD was variable, depending on the music. On some electronica it was much closer. On tracks such as Eric Clapton - Layla (live) is was night and day. Night and day as in, slap you in the face different. The Analog rang rings around the Moon. Not a fair comparison of course, the Moon DAC is only a £600 upgrade, a tenth of the price of the MSB. Raz's setup was the clear winner, but that doesn't detract from the Moon, it's incredible value for money.

I'll be getting the TotalDAC next month, Raz and I will perform a much longer and more thorough comparison (I was limited by time today). Hopefully the custom Analog linear PSU will be with Raz so we can add that to the testing group too. Looking forward to that :¬)
 
Stuff I wasn't expecting, which you might nor care about but I found interesting nonetheless:
 
5) The Moon 430HAD sounds far better at my home using my main (crazy powerful) hackintosh than the Macbook Air I used at Raz's. Again, night and day. I'll be nabbing an Aurender N10 for comparisons at the same time as the TotalDAC. Not all sources are created equal :¬)
 
6) The 430 amp has it's own sound, it was a bottleneck for DAC comparisons. It invalidates the time I auditioned the Lampi Big 7 and Yggdrasil. Something more transparent would be better for such tests. EC Studio anyone?
 
Peace :¬)
 
Edit: to expand on the Clapton - Layla comparison, the Analog was levels above. The voice harmonies were more disparate, cleaner and tonally sexy. Transients were another level and the same applies for the soundstage and dynamic range. The Moon DAC sounded digital and hissy in comparison to the smooth, darker (more natural) sound of the Analog. 

 

[dan.gheorghe]

  At some point I'll write a full report, but just as a quick heads up, @negura (Raz) kindly hosted an MSB (vs Moon) listening session at his house today.
 
The key things I've discovered about it (ignoring headphones - Abyss and modded HE-6):
 
1) The Analog DAC is fantastic. Very organic and smooth while maintaining resolving power. No digital hiss (which lends for a much blacker background; better dynamics, stage etc).
 
2) The Signature stack with UMT transport over I2S is *absolutely sublime*. I wish I hadn't heard it. Goosebump material - the music sounded so real. Fluid, natural, effortless. I now understand what people mean by that. It was alive.
 
3) The difference between the Signature stack + UMT over both I2S and coax is significant. I2S is something else. Can't wait to hear the Network Renderer for the Analog. Could be a piece of magic.

(We used speakers for Signature stack listening.)
 
4) The difference between Raz's EC 2A3 MK4 setup and the Moon 430HAD was variable, depending on the music. On some electronica it was much closer. On tracks such as Eric Clapton - Layla (live) is was night and day. Night and day as in, slap you in the face different. The Analog rang rings around the Moon. Not a fair comparison of course, the Moon DAC is only a £600 upgrade, a tenth of the price of the MSB. Raz's setup was the clear winner, but that doesn't detract from the Moon, it's incredible value for money.

I'll be getting the TotalDAC next month, Raz and I will perform a much longer and more thorough comparison (I was limited by time today). Hopefully the custom Analog linear PSU will be with Raz so we can add that to the testing group too. Looking forward to that :¬)
 
Stuff I wasn't expecting, which you might nor care about but I found interesting nonetheless:
 
5) The Moon 430HAD sounds far better at my home using my main (crazy powerful) hackintosh than the Macbook Air I used at Raz's. Again, night and day. I'll be nabbing an Aurender N10 for comparisons at the same time as the TotalDAC. Not all sources are created equal :¬)
 
6) The 430 amp has it's own sound, it was a bottleneck for DAC comparisons. It invalidates the time I auditioned the Lampi Big 7 and Yggdrasil. Something more transparent would be better for such tests. EC Studio anyone?
 
Peace :¬)
 
Edit: to expand on the Clapton - Layla comparison, the Analog was levels above. The voice harmonies were more disparate, cleaner and tonally sexy. Transients were another level and the same applies for the soundstage and dynamic range. The Moon DAC sounded digital and hissy in comparison to the smooth, darker (more natural) sound of the Analog. 

Indeed, the moon has a sound of its own. It's a nice amp, but not quite there in terms of transparency and doesn't scale that much with better dacs.

 

[Yoga]

  Indeed, the moon has a sound of its own. It's a nice amp, but not quite there in terms of transparency and doesn't scale that much with better dacs.

 
Spot on.
 
I still love the 430, listening to it as we speak and the sound is delicious. What it offers as a one box solution is fantastic, and can be an end game 'setup' for those who love it's sonic signature and are not fussed about the highest echelons of sound.
 
Very surprised by Raz's EC 2A3. So much power. Can't wait to hear the Studio, that could be a true end game amplifier to partner top end DACs.

 

[ccschua]

just setup the analog dac with dual pc setup. started from single pc without jplay till the final setup. 
 
each step brings a change in sound and finally have the unit setup with latest firmware and usb drivers.

 

[negura]

 
6) The 430 amp has it's own sound, it was a bottleneck for DAC comparisons. It invalidates the time I auditioned the Lampi Big 7 and Yggdrasil. Something more transparent would be better for such tests. EC Studio anyone?

 
I was familiar with the Moon, having had it a home for a few weeks, considering purchase at the time. What I did not have back then were DACs at the level of the MSB Analog and Signature V stack. I am used comparing DACs for a while now and although I knew which one was the Analog, it was more difficult than it should be. The Moon is a good amplifier, but this is perhaps just as much as it scales. An interesting note could be they had the Moon430HA around at Innerfidelity and Tyll mentioned his preference for it. I actually wonder what amp they used for the DAC off, which was a difficult challenge. 
 
The Eddie Current 2A3 must be transparent enough, as we could hear not subtle differences moving from Analog to the Signature V stack and between the Quad USB/UMT and respectively UMT/COAX and  UMT/I2S as @Yoga mentioned. I heard more noticeable differences with the EC and headphones between DACs, but using speakers does too facilitate this comparison.
 
Things I was surprised with:
- the Moon DAC was sounding better than I remembered it with my demo Moon, which could have not been properly burnt-in. Time did not allow to test it with speakers, which might have been how I heard the demo one.
- the Abyss are of course exceptionally clear, with great horizontal space and layering, and very tight bass.  In comparison my HE-6s bass bloats a bit and this is noticeable in comparison, but they go down deeper. To my surprise and in my opinion, the Abyss do roll-off sub-bass (both quantity and sub-bass detail).The HE-6s were a bit warmer and the Abyss more neutral sounding. Both headphones are in the same school of thought as expected, energetic/electrifying sound. These are not definitely headphones for background listening and that is also a reason I like both. 

 

[Yoga]

   
I was familiar with the Moon, having had it a home for a few weeks, considering purchase at the time. What I did not have back then were DACs at the level of the MSB Analog and Signature V stack. I am used comparing DACs for a while now and although I knew which one was the Analog, it was more difficult than it should be. The Moon is a good amplifier, but this is perhaps just as much as it scales. An interesting note could be they had the Moon430HA around at Innerfidelity and Tyll mentioned his preference for it. I actually wonder what amp they used for the DAC off, which was a difficult challenge. 
 
The Eddie Current 2A3 must be transparent enough, as we could hear not subtle differences moving from Analog to the Signature V stack and between the Quad USB/UMT and respectively UMT/COAX and  UMT/I2S as @Yoga mentioned. But using speakers does too facilitate this comparison.
 
Things I was surprised with:
- the Moon DAC was sounding better than in my demo Moon, which could have not been properly burnt-in. Time did not allow to test it with speakers, which might have been how I heard the demo one.
- the Abyss is of course exceptionally clear, with great horizontal space and layering, and very tight bass. But to my surprise the Abyss do roll-off sub-bass (both quantity and sub-bass detail). In comparison my HE-6s the bass bloats a bit and this is noticeable in comparison, but they go down deeper. The HE-6s are a bit warmer and the Abyss more neutral sounding. Both headphones are in the same school of thought as expected, energetic/electrifying sound. These are not definitely headphones for background listening. 

I was also wondering what DAC Tyll used for Big Sound, can't recall reading it anywhere. As mentioned the Moon sounds even better here at home, more open and dynamic. One thing to note, the analogue inputs on the Moon haven't even been used (let alone burned in for 300 hours). I'll do so for round 2 with the TotalDAC.
 
What tubes did we swap to that gave the tighter bass? 

Abyss vs HE-6 - agreed. It's down to preference. I prefer the Abyss sound, but goodness me the modded HE-6 are a bargain.

Thanks again Raz for today, much appreciated. I made it to football with 5 minutes to spare so the fast exit was timed well :¬)