[SilverEars]

What about stability at louder levels?  Possibly, one driver may not do so well when you push it harder.  If you look at distortion graphs, headphones puts out more distortion if you drive it harder.
 
Yeah, I sold my ER4.  My ears don't  lie, I didn't like them(I could care less how accurate people think it is, it isn't to me, I personally don't think it's neutral, but really cold and unnatural sounding).  But, expectation bias maybe from looking at the graph and wanting it to be accurate.  Newer graphing methods are available now, than what Etymotic has used in the past.

 

[higbvuyb]

   
Comparing an iem to an actual instrument in front of you can ONLY be subjective, giving the testing methods of iems, there are hardly any facts around that are not general like +10db in the 50hz range means sub bass exists.

When I say 'subjective' I mean 'it depends on the person listening'. It may be true for you, but not necessarily true for any other given person.
 
Yes, I think the MH1 has a bit too much upper bass. It was tuned that way though.
 
Anyway I get where your disagreement is. If we go back to this post:
 

 
How would you propose they do this tuning? The only ways I can think of is to change the size of the driver or stick in a low/high pass filter (for no good reason if your logic is correct)

You seem to think that the only good way to change the tuning is to add more drivers. This isn't really true.
 
You start with choosing the right driver. From there, you have various methods for tuning the sound. Rear cavity volume, venting, acoustic dampers/filters, electric filters, acoustic circuits, horn effect, reverse horn effect, tip design, insertion depth, etc.

 

[tinyman392]

   
If you're saying comparing what i'm hearing in the IMPACT of bass region with the iem I own, to actual physical drums in front of me is subjective, then I have nothing to say. I would not consider a small pop instead of a good slam from a drum not neutral.
 
The ATH-im50 happens to have great bass without clear bleeding into the midrange.
 
All these graphical readings are only a guide, it strongly depends on how the iem is positioned on the dummy head, what tips it uses etc. This error is huge especially in the bass region, a slight change in angle or seal means the difference between bass roll off and relatively good bass. As with all scientific theory, it is just the best representation we can give for something we don't really understand! This testing method is shaky at best.
 
note again I am talking about IMPACT as I have mention in nearly every post.

 
Three things...  1, your drums produce sub-bass and bass that vibrates through the ground which amplifies it (a recording won't reproduce this as it's multi-mic'd with a unidirectional mic at distance 0, they tend to be recorded in studios as well which use rooms with minimal reflection).  2, your drums produce bass is hits your entire body which is felt, not heard (headphones don't reproduce this).  3, your drums produce sound around 100-110 dB, if you want to feel that impact, play music that loud out of your headphones, you'll get that impact and a whole hell lot of other issues too (if you're listening to music at this level, your ears do some weird stuff to protect themselves). 
 
The headphones produce exactly what is recorded (if they are neutral).  If the recording is compressed, you will lose drum impact and depth.  If it's not binaural, of if it's multi-mic'ed, you won't get the reflection and amplification from the ground.  If it's not at 100+ dB, you won't get that impact and stimulation at all. 
 
Artificially boosting the bass to match something closer to what you hear, the sound level, isn't accurate or neutral.  The recording compression has more to do with the loss of impact than your headphones do.  If the recording wasn't compressed as much, you'd get your impact and slam out of a pair of neutral IEMs. Unfortunately, most recordings are compressed a bit too much.
 
You're not hearing, you're feeling, and that can only be reproduced properly if you boost volume above 80 dB.
 
You're asking for a pair of headphones to reproduce what isn't there or what has already been lost.  That isn't neutral, or accurate.  It can be a lot more natural in many cases (I agree with that).  But then that falls into the fact that you prefer natural headphones over neutral.  Back to preference.  Back to the subjective realm.

 

[tinyman392]

  What about stability at louder levels?  Possibly, one driver may not do so well when you push it harder.  If you look at distortion graphs, headphones puts out more distortion if you drive it harder.
 
Yeah, I sold my ER4.  My ears don't  lie, I didn't like them(I could care less how accurate people think it is, it isn't to me, I personally don't think it's neutral, but really cold and unnatural sounding).  But, expectation bias maybe from looking at the graph and wanting it to be accurate.  Newer graphing methods are available now, than what Etymotic has used in the past.

 
All headphones put out more distortion if you drive it harder actually   Regardless of whether it's single or multi-driver.  There is a slight roll off in the bass with an Ety unfortunately, other IEMs I mentioned do have that (the RE-400 for example).  I should also add, you shouldn't really hit the point where you get distortion if you're listening to music if you want to hear it properly: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/loud-music-sucks

 

[tomscy2000]

Apparently, the LEAR LCM-5 plus studio adapter is very neutral as well, but I've never heard it myself.
 
Not gonna bother with the explaining stuff. Too much time and effort. Tiny seems to be doing an admirable job.
 
Seems like a thread like this pops up every once in a while.

 

[rawrster]

I have yet to hear anything that bests the UERM in this category. I heard a demo of the JH10X3 a while back and that probably is JH Audio's most neutral ciem if one wants to go with JH Audio instead.

 

[shotgunshane]

I have yet to hear anything that bests the UERM in this category. I heard a demo of the JH10X3 a while back and that probably is JH Audio's most neutral ciem if one wants to go with JH Audio instead.

I've heard that mentioned before about the jh10x3. How would you compare it to the UERM?

 

[SilverEars]

  I have yet to hear anything that bests the UERM in this category. I heard a demo of the JH10X3 a while back and that probably is JH Audio's most neutral ciem if one wants to go with JH Audio instead.

Which hits what I'm looking for well. JH13FP or UERM?  Also, which of the two, Resonessence Concero or Buffalo bette, brings out most clarityr?

 

[rawrster]

I've heard that mentioned before about the jh10x3. How would you compare it to the UERM?

 
It's really been a while since I heard the JH10X3 so I can't really make any specific descriptions.
 

  Which hits what I'm looking for well. JH13FP or UERM?  Also, which of the two, Resonessence Concero or Buffalo bette, brings out most clarityr?

 
If talking neutrality the UERM wins. The JH13FP isn't tuned to be neutral while the UERM is. As far as the Concero or Buffalo I can't say as my Buffalo is part of my Stax rig. I also don't own any non Stax headphone amps if I wanted to try it out.

 

[shotgunshane]

Oh I was just thinking like something along the lines as bassier than the UERM or brighter. That kind of thing.

 

[uelover]

Oh I was just thinking like something along the lines as bassier than the UERM or brighter. That kind of thing.

Brighter than the UERM?

 

[rawrster]

Oh I was just thinking like something along the lines as bassier than the UERM or brighter. That kind of thing.

I told my audiologist that if I didn't get the uerm from her already I would have bought the 10x3. From what I remember and granted it's been a while I would say similar bass and the 10x3 is a bit prone to sibilance from less than stellar material. Their signatures are pretty much the same but I did feel that the uerm was at a slightly higher level. For example if out of 10 the uerm was a 9 the 10x3 would be around a 8.8 or something like that. It has been around much longer than the uerm however and is not that popular around here for some reason.

 

[shotgunshane]

Brighter than the UERM?

Interestingly I don't find my UERM as bright as I expected, based on my two separate week long auditions. However I do have a fit issue that could be affecting it on the left side, so we'll see how the future turns out.

I told my audiologist that if I didn't get the uerm from her already I would have bought the 10x3. From what I remember and granted it's been a while I would say similar bass and the 10x3 is a bit prone to sibilance from less than stellar material. Their signatures are pretty much the same but I did feel that the uerm was at a slightly higher level. For example if out of 10 the uerm was a 9 the 10x3 would be around a 8.8 or something like that. It has been around much longer than the uerm however and is not that popular around here for some reason.

Thanks!

 

[higbvuyb]

  What about stability at louder levels?  Possibly, one driver may not do so well when you push it harder.  If you look at distortion graphs, headphones puts out more distortion if you drive it harder.

Some multi-BA IEMs double up on the drivers so that you have 6dB more headroom without increased harmonic distortion.

 

[Spyro]

Post #63 is important.  Perhaps we all are thinking something different when we talk about neutral or accurate or natural.
 
I want my music to sound just like as if I am sitting there in the sound studio with the band.  I presumed THAT was as accurate and as realistic as possible.  And this is why an Etymotic product fails that test because the complete lack of impact and realism on any frequencies below midrange.  But I am getting the impression here that some feel that "live" music, as I describe, is NOT accurate because of room acoustics reverberation, added bass,  etc??    I find that odd.
 
Now....if that IS the case,  you can talk all you want about searching for the most accurate IEM even though "that sound" is not a sound that is heard or played back anywhere I know of.  Where and in what setting am I going to hear that 100% accurate sound?   Not sure why anyone would want that I guess.  I THINK, (and I may be wrong) the vast majority of people that want accurate reproduction.....want it to resemble "live" music in a studio setting.  If, in the case of IEM's, that means coloring the sound to a certain degree, then so be it.  
 
There is a HUGE difference in coloring between W3 and W4.  To flat out say they are both way off is crazy.  W4 is (IMHO) about as close as you can get to "REALISM" (whatever that may be as a reference point) as you can get.
Say what you want but W4 is more realistic sounding than JH13.  I have owned both and can say that with confidence.  While JH13 has more detail speed and transparency....so what..."live" music resembles W4 better IMHO.  With my current W40, a "lack of details" is NOT an issue.  I'm getting everything off the recording more than any other Westone IEM I have ever owned.  Don't forget about all those IEM's out there with great detail and treble that are so splashy and harsh and fatiguing??   AGAIN, perhaps W40 has some coloring but it does all that...and also has great textured detailed bass (2 drivers) but is buttery smooth at the same time.  WHAT MORE WOULD YOU WANT???