[ZoNtO]

Bob isn't the only Big Sound 2015 participant that felt this way about the 430HA though. Other invitees, at least a few, felt the same way.

Your ears are the ones that matter. I think it's pretty obvious the 430HA is the best unit there that doubles up as a speaker preamp too.

 

[upside]

  That's the Evolution technology for you! "Borrowing various technologies from our more exotic and costlier Evolution series (M-LoVo, M-eVOL2) . . . ."
 
I debated about posting this here, but figured I might as well in case anybody else is doing the same research I am on the 430HA and other Simaudio units for use in a combined headphone and video 2.0 setup with speakers in a living room. As the preamp functionality is equally, if not more, important to me, I inquired about the preamp and headphone capabilities of the 230HAD, 430HA, 350P preamp, and 340i integrated. Email chain below (with some grammar edits and a minor redaction I thought appropriate):
 

Spoiler: Email chain re: Simaudio Moon 230HAD, 430HA, 350P, and 340i

Email #1:
Hi there, 

I am very interested in a few products from your Moon Neo line for use in a combination video 2.0 system that will also double-up for headphone use. 

I take it that the 430HA is your highest performing headphone amplifier in the Moon Neo line, but I was hoping that someone with the technical knowledge of the line could compare the preamp and headphone amplifier circuits between the 430HA, the 350P preamplifier, and the 340i integrated amplifier. Additionally, I'm hoping you can provide technical specifications for the headphone circuits for the 350P and 340i so that I may compare them to the more detailed headphone specs provided for the 430HA on your website. 

Is the 350P a better speaker preamp than the 430HA because there is less circuitry focused on the balanced headphone design? 

As of now, my source will be an Oppo BDP-105D and headphones will be Sennheiser HD650 and/or Sennheiser HD800. 

Thanks! 
 
Response #1:
 
Dear Mr. [

],
 
Thank you for your email and your interest in MOON products.
 
Indeed, the 430HA is the highest performing headphone amplifier, which it excels at. The 350P is the better preamplifier though.
 
The 230HAD, however, is almost on par with the 350P headphone amplifier’s performance, it also uses a transconductance circuit, similar to the one found in the 230HAD.
 
Our integrated amplifiers from the Nēo series  (220i, 250i & 340i) use the same amplifier as the speakers output, which is scaled down using a resistance, and so, sounds better with very high impedance headphones.
 
I hope this answers your question; if you need further information, do not hesitate to contact us again!
 
Best regards.
 
The Simaudio Team
 
Email #2 with Response #2 overlaid:
 
Hi there,
 
Thanks for the quick response. I have a few follow up questions:
 
1. Could you please provide the technical specifications for the headphone out for both the 350P and the 340i? Wondering about output impedance; power output at 50, 300, and 600 ohms; and any other figures (distortion, frequency response, crosstalk, etc.) that you have available. Those specs are provided on the website for the 230HAD and the 430HA because they are headphone-focused, but not for the 350P and 340i headphone outputs.
 
 
[430HA specs added for convenience:
Output impedance: 1.25ohm
DHT: 0.005%
Power:
8W @ 50ohms
1.33W @ 300ohms
667mW @ 600ohms]
 
[230HAD specs added for convenience:
Output impedance: 1.25ohm
DHT: 0.005%
Power:
1W @ 50ohms
200W @ 300ohms
100mW @ 600ohms]
 
2. Could you please elaborate on the difference between the transconductance circuits as you move from the 230HAD to the 350P to the 430HA? 
 
 
3. Relatedly, is the transconductance circuit in the 430HA just the circuit in the 350P doubled up in a true balanced configuration? I'm probably most interested in this comparison because these two products seem to be the closest to what I'm looking for.
 
 
4. If a user sends the 350P a balanced analog signal through one of its rear balanced inputs and then listens through the headphone jack, does the audio signal remain balanced like it does in the 430HA until it reaches the headphone jack (even though the jack is single-ended)? Or is it summed somehow before then.
 
[Note: I have since followed-up to confirm if a user inputs a balanced analog signal into the 350P and then outputs via its balanced outputs to a power amplifier, whether the signal remains balanced.]
 
5. Is the option to add a DAC board to the 350P for the same updated DAC board that is available for the 430HA (at $800 for both)? I'm considering this as an add-on, but wondering if there's really a performance benefit compared to the DAC section of my Oppo BDP-105D that is also based on an ESS Sabre chipset.
 
 
6. Lastly, what are the differences in the preamplifier/line-stage circuits as you go from the 230HAD to the 430HA to the 350P?
 
 
Since both the HD650 and the HD800 are 300-ohm headphones, it may work with the 340i, but I want to compare the various options in more detail if possible.
 
I really like the idea of the 430HA, but the lack of balanced stereo output makes me wonder if the 350P would be a better fit in my system. 
 
Thanks for your help!​

 
Thanks for posting this.
 
I too am deciding on the next purchase from Simaudio to go with my 430HAD, 230HAD, 260T and 280D pieces. Not as straight forward as it seems.
 
I have listened to both the 340i and the 350P with a 330A but only in a system context and without listening to the all of the headphone stages.

 

[longbowbbs]

Bob isn't the only Big Sound 2015 participant that felt this way about the 430HA though. Other invitees, at least a few, felt the same way.

Your ears are the ones that matter. I think it's pretty obvious the 430HA is the best unit there that doubles up as a speaker preamp too.

I know Mike. I respect his opinions very much. However, we listen for different things. Our respective reference units would not be the same.

 

[slc01]

I agree with Bob Katz, and some of the other test participants, about the 430HA. I have Sennheiser HD 800 phones, driven balanced from the HDVA 600 amp, from a dCS source. On some things the 430HA sounded tonally more accurate than the HDVA 600 (piano more realistic, for example), but my overwhelming impression was that the 430HA sounded soft and lacking in dynamics, and almost muffled on tracks that were recorded rather "dull" (as opposed to bright). I was very disappointed, as I had hoped to buy. For me, Bob Katz nailed the character of the 430HA exactly.
 
The only other similar opinion that I found on the internet - before those at InnerFidelity - was from someone who had an obscure Chinese headphone amp (I can't remember the brand) but who seemed to be an experienced and thoughtful listener.
 
slc.

 

[ZoNtO]

  I agree with Bob Katz, and some of the other test participants, about the 430HA. I have Sennheiser HD 800 phones, driven balanced from the HDVA 600 amp, from a dCS source. On some things the 430HA sounded tonally more accurate than the HDVA 600 (piano more realistic, for example), but my overwhelming impression was that the 430HA sounded soft and lacking in dynamics, and almost muffled on tracks that were recorded rather "dull" (as opposed to bright). I was very disappointed, as I had hoped to buy. For me, Bob Katz nailed the character of the 430HA exactly.
 
The only other similar opinion that I found on the internet - before those at InnerFidelity - was from someone who had an obscure Chinese headphone amp (I can't remember the brand) but who seemed to be an experienced and thoughtful listener.
 
slc.

 
Thanks for sharing! How would you compare the sound of the HDVA600 to the sound of the 430HA?

 

[slc01]

ZoNto,
 
I found the internet review I mentioned in my last post. It compares the Moon 430HA with the Audio GD Master 9. (No, I hadn't heard of it either!) While the review is generally very positive towards the Moon, the comparison with the other unit (near the end of the review) is revealing. I think the writer's findings are consistent with the opinions expressed by Bob Katz and others on InnerFidelity. Here's the link:
 
http://headmania.org/2015/03/08/simaudio-moon-430ha-headphone-amplifier-review/
 
My opinion: the Moon ameliorates the slight treble brightness that the HD 800 has. On recordings that are themselves bright it sounds better and more tonally realistic. On the recordings that are better balanced it sounds "smoothed over" somehow. Detail is still there if I listen closely, but the smoothing effect makes the music seem less involving. And, as I mentioned before, there is subjectively a lack of treble detail. When I played some rock - from the 70s, I'm old! - I was shocked by how uninvolving and undynamic the Moon sounded. Mind you, this was towards the end of my audition when I was already disappointed. Everything that I've said about the sound of the Moon is in comparison with the HDVA 600. I dare say that there are better amps than the HDVA 600 around, or will be in the future. But, right now, if I were offered both the HDVA 600 and Moon for the same price (or even free) I'd take the HDVA 600.
 
About the future: I met Axel Grell of Sennheiser at the London CanJam, and asked him about new developments and products. He told me to watch out for announcements. I think he was referring to the HD 800 as well as the new "statement product" that we've seen teaser photos of. (Announcement on that one at the beginning of November I think).
 
slc

 

[longbowbbs]

How many hours of burn in did the 430HA have prior to your listening sessions? Anything less than 300 and you will not hear what it offers long term.

 

[edwardsean]

I don't know, the sound has definitely improved over break in, but the basic sonic signature was there from the beginning, I guess to love or hate. I'm a lover. I was astounded at how perfect it all was, esp. with the HD800s. In my system, to my ears, the very softness that is being criticized imparts an almost planar like smoothness to the HD800's analytic presentation. So with the 430HA, you have The HD800's spot on imaging and resolution enveloped in layers of velvety texture.
 
I have to put forth though that my software, cabling, and audiophilleo USB/Spdif convertor are no small part of the aural architecture I'm describing.  

 

[longbowbbs]

  I don't know, the sound has definitely improved over break in, but the basic sonic signature was there from the beginning, I guess to love or hate. I'm a lover. I was astounded at how perfect it all was, esp. with the HD800s. In my system, to my ears, the very "softness" that is being criticized imparts an almost planar like smoothness to the HD800's analytic presentation. So with the 430HA, you have The HD800's spot on imaging and resolution enveloped in layers of velvety texture.
 
I have to put forth though that my software, cabling, and audiophilleo USB/Spdif convertor are no small part of the aural architecture I'm describing.  

The chain is always the thing....

 

[TonyNewman]

I have pulled my Auralic Taurus out of storage in my cupboard under the stairs and setup for some A/B testing. Spent about an hour playing about with various tracks this morning. I will do this in a lot more depth this weekend and report back from that, but my initial impression has me agreeing with much of what Bob Katz has to say. Simaudio have produced a very warm and musical amp, but this has been at some expense of dynamics, punch and detail. It is certainly less fatiguing than the Taurus, but also less engaging to my ears.
 
A good example is “The Foggy Dew” from The Long Black Veil by The Chieftains. This is one of my favorite tracks from a favorite album – great vocals built around an excellent musical arrangement. This track uses booming kettle drums to represent the slam and crash of cannons. When played through the 430HA, the drums are there, but lack the impact, punch, energy and slam that they have from the Taurus. On the Taurus you can hear the reverberations of the drum after the initial strike - on the 430HA that is hard to do. Same with the pluck of a stringed instrument. These are details I like - a lot. 
 
The vocals are sweet, but also less raw and natural. Almost muffled in effect. Less fatiguing, but also less engaging. I respect what Simaudio were trying to do with the 430HA – I like a bit of warmth and musicality in my SS gear – but I think they might have overcooked it in the 430HA. That is a shame, as it is otherwise a superb piece of kit – the build quality and features are very good - but the sound signature is verging on tube like and if I want that I have a WA5 and (very soon) a Glenn 300B amp to use.
 
For a long session would I go for the 430HA? Maybe, but I still want engagement with my music, so it might be the Taurus, even for a longer session. My listening preferences should be the 430HA's strengths - vocal centric and 60s / 70s / 80s pop. Think Alison Krauss and Lorenna McKennitt type of music mixed in with some Bruce Springsteen and Beetles.
 
I can see myself continuing to use the 430HA for preamp duties (where it is excellent) and using the Taurus for my SS HeadFi. Exception would be driving the HE6, as the Taurus struggles to do this. Then again, I would be more likely to use the WA5 in that case. If I want tube-like sound I might as well use my tube amp to do it.
 
I can't understand why I didn't pick this up earlier. I did some limited A/B testing when I first got the 430HA, and then packed the Taurus away. It just didn't strike me at the time. Mea Culpa on that one. Now that I am listening for it, it is obvious to me what is missing. It doesn't surprise me at all that some folks did a very good job of picking out the 430HA in the blind testing over at Inner Fidelity. It is a very, very different sounding amp to the Taurus (which I think is a much more 'typical' SS amp - mostly transparent with strong detail and dynamics).
 
I have a 230HAD on order - I really hope that this DAC + Amp combination is closer to a 'traditional' SS rig - mostly transparent with a hint of warmth. For me and my ears, the 430HA has gone too far down the warmth + musicality road to the point where musical engagement has suffered. Not my thing (and my own fault for buying blind).
 
So, for me, the 430HA is mostly a preamp, but I didn't really need that as the Taurus also performs that function very, very well. What I wanted was a high end SS headamp that could drive the HE6 and make it sing. It certainly has the push to drive the HE6 (8W is sufficient), but the sound signature is just off for me and not what I expect from a SS amp.
 
As always, this is my personal preferences at play. YMMV.

 

[upside]

TonyNewman, I have both the 430HAD and 230HAD. I don't think the 230HAD will give you what you want. I find the 230 and 430 more alike than dissimilar. Just my opinion of course.

 

[TonyNewman]

  TonyNewman, I have both the 430HAD and 230HAD. I don't think the 230HAD will give you what you want. I find the 230 and 430 more alike than dissimilar. Just my opinion of course.

 
Thanks for letting me know. I might have stuffed myself (again) on that one.

 

[upside]

   
Thanks for letting me know. I might have stuffed myself (again) on that one.

No worries.
 
The 230HAD is what led me to purchase the 430HAD. They both have the same house sound, if you will. Smooth, detailed, a bit warm and a very quiet background. The 430HAD is that much better at ease of presentation, space, flow and a greater degree of dimensionality.
 
Whatever the transconductance part of the circuit brings (to my ear, a bit of a Class A amp sound) both the 230HAD and 430HAD share that as well.

 

[TonyNewman]

 
No worries.
 
The 230HAD is what led me to purchase the 430HAD. They both have the same house sound, if you will. Smooth, detailed, a bit warm and a very quiet background. The 430HAD is that much better at ease of presentation, space, flow and a greater degree of dimensionality.
 
Whatever the transconductance part of the circuit brings (to my ear, a bit of a Class A amp sound) both the 230HAD and 430HAD share that as well.

 
Just a bit too much for me. I am a bit of a detail freak and I miss the plankton. I will try and cancel the order for the 230HAD and go for a Burson Conductor (or similar) instead. More my bag.

 

[upside]

   
Just a bit too much for me. I am a bit of a detail freak and I miss the plankton. I will try and cancel the order for the 230HAD and go for a Burson Conductor (or similar) instead. More my bag.

It's all good. Different horses and all that.
 
I am curious what cabling you are using with your 430HA? I have a preference for a warmer sound. More a fan of Cardas than Nordost, if you know what I mean? In any case, I've been really liking some of the newer Audioquest cables with the Simaudio Neo products. Seems a bit of synergy there. More so than with my Cardas cables. Perhaps it's the bit of detail the Audioquest brings out.
 
Another example of system synergy for me has been in trying some active monitors with the 430HAD and 230HAD. Depending on the day and musical genre on tap I can use the Dynaudios or Focals. Both very different sounding - almost polar opposites. But in a system context, one is very much preferred over the other.