[betula]

Do you happen to have any insight about Tungsten compared to Elite? Maybe this is a more fitting comparison since from what I've heard about them they both seem more laid back than the more forward and energetic Caldera?

In that regard the Elite and the Tungsten might be closer. I can't really go into valid comparisons though as I only heard the Tungsten for 5-10 minutes right after some ZMF headphones. My Elites were back home. I would rather restrain from commenting as I did not have the two headphones on the same table.

 

[goldwerger]

That is interesting and I am interested to read more of your findings as and when you get there. This sounds like though, finding the right amp pairing for the Tungsten can be a bit of a work which might limit sales potential.

To some extent yes. But with understanding and experience we will find many options at different price points that could potentially work well. Finding a great amp to let the potential of headphones shine through is often part of the journey (for example,I love my Atrium Open and Atrium Closed on many amps, and they are both very easy to drive off almost anything, but I'm very happy I got the Decware/ZMF OTL amp, as it offers something out of them that is beyond anything else I've heard).

 

[Alenotta]

Welcome

Not instead of, no. Definitely in addition to the Caldera though.. my first impressions directionally concur with below:


Re this:


Wanted to wait more before giving more input here while I’m researching this. But will share some TBC hypothesis I’m working through: my growing impression is that these headphones need and scale dramatically with voltage. I dig into the V281 specs, and they really unusual for a solid state amp. Those normally have a certain voltage supply and yhe power declines (more or less linearly, sometime in other proportions) as load impedance increases. However, the v281 output voltage actually increased with higher impedance loads. At the double-magnet version near 150 ohm load, the V281 supplies a ridiculously high 25V.

I’m chatting with LordGwyn offline to understand more about the Aegis circuit design and see if that amp does something similar (since it also drives, to my ears, another high impedance planar, the LCD-4, uniquely well). So it seems more than a coincidence.

So, I think the Tungsten isn’t harder to drive than the Susvara, it’s just needs something different to drive. Some lower voltage / higher current amps that drive the Susvara won’t be as good for the Tungsten, and vice versa (trying to plug the Susvara or Caldera into the GOTL won’t work, but it will drive the Tungsten). There is a van diagram of amps that should be able to drive all, and not all would be exotic or expensive. Simply, we need to learn to understand the reason for the synergies where the Tungsten sounds gre (just like when one uses high impedance dynamic headphones with OTLs).

I’m excited about a headphone with a unique profile. I don’t think these will go head-to-head with current TOTL planars. Susvara and Caldera are very different from each other, and the Tungsten is different from those two betond. A new set of great headphones with a unique presentation that will help serve even more audiences (and give many of us obsessed ones a chance to expand our irrational collections).

This is fantastic info. I can't wait to hear this one at CanJam SoCal. My Caldera is my absolute favorite headphone, but I do love my Meze Empyreans for the slightly laid back vibe too. I think I'll really like this one. I wonder how it would do with my Cayin HA-300 mk ii SET...

 

[goldwerger]

This is fantastic info. I can't wait to hear this one at CanJam SoCal. My Caldera is my absolute favorite headphone, but I do love my Meze Empyreans for the slightly laid back vibe too. I think I'll really like this one. I wonder how it would do with my Cayin HA-300 mk ii SET...

I guess you’ll have to let us know

Ryan says Mimic should have the Tungsten to demo at SoCal. I’d encourage you to give them a spin..

 

[Knee Deep In Epoxy]

Reading some of the feedback that's coming through, I'm feeling torn... I feel like there's something special and "romantic" about going for the hardest to drive single magnet "original" version of what is clearly a unique community project. But then there's driveability and also the feedback saying that the double magnet version is more neutral and a tad more resolving than the single magnet (unless I have misunderstood?).

Would anyone here who has heard both ( which I guess means @Tulon ) say that they stage differently at all in terms of stage size and depth, or it is splitting hairs?

My trigger finger is itchy for the purple coloured one but wondering whether to go for it now or wait a little longer.

Speaking of which, will the purple be indefinitely available through Mimic or is it a limited run?

Finally, would the Burson 3XP be sufficient to power either the single or double sided version?

No details on voltage/Vrms that I could find buy on my Hifiman Arya V2 and ZMF Atrium I never get past 50% on medium gain. Not sure if that is in any way indicative?

Any help from anyone will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance

 

[goldwerger]

Reading some of the feedback that's coming through, I'm feeling torn... I feel like there's something special and "romantic" about going for the hardest to drive single magnet "original" version of what is clearly a unique community project. But then there's driveability and also the feedback saying that the double magnet version is more neutral and a tad more resolving than the single magnet (unless I have misunderstood?).

Would anyone here who has heard both ( which I guess means @Tulon ) say that they stage differently at all in terms of stage size and depth, or it is splitting hairs?

My trigger finger is itchy for the purple coloured one but wondering whether to go for it now or wait a little longer.

Speaking of which, will the purple be indefinitely available through Mimic or is it a limited run?

Finally, would the Burson 3XP be sufficient to power either the single or double sided version?



No details on voltage/Vrms that I could find buy on my Hifiman Arya V2 and ZMF Atrium I never get past 50% on medium gain. Not sure if that is in any way indicative?

Any help from anyone will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance

I will be getting a set of the single-sided this week so I can make a comparison between them and the double-sided in my own chain and on same amps, to will include this comparison in my review.

The single sided sensitivity would be slightly lower but so would its impedance. Likely the voltage (and any current limiter) in any one of these would work for the other (tbd).

Your amp can push 9.5V at 150 ohm (using XLR) so (at this point only think I can offer) it would work but may not be optimal. I think it’s more than just voltage, there is obviously the quality of the amplification and synergy. These are hard to predict, and some amps do better than others irrespective of their specs (specifics in the circuit design and implementation). I guess you will need to let us know and educate us further

 

[Knee Deep In Epoxy]

I will be getting a set of the single-sided this week so I can make a comparison between them and the double-sided in my own chain and on same amps, to will include this comparison in my review.

The single sided sensitivity would be slightly lower but so would its impedance. Likely the voltage (and any current limiter) in any one of these would work for the other (tbd).

Your amp can push 9.5V at 150 ohm (using XLR) so (at this point only think I can offer) it would work but may not be optimal. I think it’s more than just voltage, there is obviously the quality of the amplification and synergy. These are hard to predict, and some amps do better than others irrespective of their specs (specifics in the circuit design and implementation). I guess you will need to let us know and educate us further

Thanks for this. I guess right now the main question in my mind is whether the mimic colour is a permanent offering or a limited run.

If the latter, I may take a little time to shift some gear to finance my ticket to the Tungsten Club.

 

[mfgillia]

I wonder how it would do with my Cayin HA-300 mk ii SET...

I'm also curious how the Tungsten will pair with the Cayin. In theory, it should match quite well as it puts out more voltage at higher impedances.

 

[TheMiddleSky]

https://www.hear.audio/2019/06/01/headphone-power-calculator/

To achieve the same loudness, Tungsten need 3x more watts than Susvara (and 15x more than Diana TC). Not to mention a "unique" voltage requirement. Most powerful amps nowadays focus on low impedance (16/32 Ohm), and may struggle with hard to drive 150 Ohm headphone.

Usually I set my target for 120dB, but I think I need to aim target lower than that in Tungsten case, because the amp will have to push 48V.

I'm also curious how the Tungsten will pair with the Cayin. In theory, it should match quite well as it puts out more voltage at higher impedances.

This could be the match amp, Cayin Tube Amps usually more powerful with high impedance headphones. Need to double check whether the gain is enough or not though.

 

[Knee Deep In Epoxy]

https://www.hear.audio/2019/06/01/headphone-power-calculator/

To achieve the same loudness, Tungsten need 3x more watts than Susvara (and 15x more than Diana TC). Not to mention a "unique" voltage requirement. Most powerful amps nowadays focus on low impedance (16/32 Ohm), and may struggle with hard to drive 150 Ohm headphone.

Usually I set my target for 120dB, but I think I need to aim target lower than that in Tungsten case, because the amp will have to push 48V.


This could be the match amp, Cayin Tube Amps usually more powerful with high impedance headphones. Need to double check whether the gain is enough or not though.

Great tool - thanks for sharing

Edit

Great tool... but confusing.... The difference in power required to take the double sided Tungsten's desired loudness from 100 dB to 120db is literally x100.... Is this correct?

I generally listen at 70db and use a decibel metre to check that my peak loudness is no more than 80-85 dB... So technically according to the calculator 85db would be my desired loudness which reduces the power requirement to somewhere between only 1-3mw (!!??)...

I'm really not looking to make my tinnitus any worse, so setting the desired loudness to 120db is a definite no no for me. According to these results, event at a desired loudness of 100db, it would be possible to power the Tungsten off any of the plethora of amps at my disposal.

Am I missing something here?

Or can I happily power the Tungsten off my BTR5

 

[SolarCetacean]

Great tool - thanks for sharing

Edit

Great tool... but confusing.... The difference in power required to take the double sided Tungsten's desired loudness from 100 dB to 120db is literally x100.... Is this correct?

Yes, every 10 dB increase requires 10x the power. 20 dB = 100x the power. 30 dB = 1000x the power.

Note that most decibel meters aren't capable of measuring the loudness of dynamic peaks. Their integration period is too long. For the AES paper that measured how loud peaks were in live music (sometimes up to 129 dB SPL), the authors had to build a special peak detector. I'd say that if 70 dB SPL is roughly your average listening volume, then 100 dB SPL is a good reference point for ensuring that peaks aren't clipped. That gives you 30 dB of headroom for peaks, and unless you only listen to classical or jazz, most music won't need more than that much headroom.

 

[goldwerger]

I guess right now the main question in my mind is whether the mimic colour is a permanent offering or a limited run.

If the latter, I may take a little time to shift some gear to finance my ticket to the Tungsten Club.

@Tulon ?

but I think I need to aim target lower than that in Tungsten case, because the amp will have to push 48V.

The V281 puts 25v volt swing at 150ohm and has massive headroom

I think that, assuming an amp has no current limitations (for protection due to circuit design or components used) probably 20v voltage supply and up will work well (guess).

Synergies is something we’d all have to work together to trial/error/share experiences. My end, I’ve found power limitations in some cases, but some amps that were more than plenty powerful just didn’t match as well as others (e.g. v281 sounds better than CFA-3, Aegis sounds better than the more powerful Auris Nirvana; and with both amps I have opposite experiences with other headphones they match better due to specific synergies of sound characteristics).

 

[Knee Deep In Epoxy]

Yes, every 10 dB increase requires 10x the power. 20 dB = 100x the power. 30 dB = 1000x the power.

Note that most decibel meters aren't capable of measuring the loudness of dynamic peaks. Their integration period is too long. For the AES paper that measured how loud peaks were in live music (sometimes up to 129 dB SPL), the authors had to build a special peak detector. I'd say that if 70 dB SPL is roughly your average listening volume, then 100 dB SPL is a good reference point for ensuring that peaks aren't clipped. That gives you 30 dB of headroom for peaks, and unless you only listen to classical or jazz, most music won't need more than that much headroom.

Thanks very much for this!.

I'd say the Tungsten is now firmly on my shopping list... The thought of having to drop around £/$5k for the headphones AND a powerhouse amp was a real turn off. I feel like I can now just focus on synergy with the various options I already have, without worrying too much about power (or lack thereof) hampering the Tungsten's performance at the listening level I would need.

Happy days!

 

[goldwerger]

Thanks very much for this!.

I'd say the Tungsten is now firmly on my shopping list... The thought of having to drop around £/$5k for the headphones AND a powerhouse amp was a real turn off. I feel like I can now just focus on synergy with the various options I already have, without worrying too much about power (or lack thereof) hampering the Tungsten's performance at the listening level I would need.

Happy days!

The Tungesten + used v281 will be a total 3k or so, with Aegis if u build one about 3.5-4k — that’s a cost of another great planar alone. And I’m certain we’d have folks finding a couple amps perhaps cheaper that work well. What it does is require whoever gets it to be thoughtful about the pairing in advance. I’d avoid getting a Tungsten if one planned to try to power it with insufficient drive.

 

[Pharmaboy]

V281 - so far the best SS option I tested. There's something very enjoyable about how this amp controls the drivers with a real bite and thickness in bass, coupled with some reverb that offers sense of space simultaneously.

I'm a known V281 fanboy, so take this comment with a grain of salt--but I love how the long-discontinued V281 (since replaced by bigger/better/other Vio designs) pops up as your best SS amp to power this incredibly challenging headphone.

I only know what I read in this thread, having never laid eyes or ears on the Tungsten...but if I ever got one IMS the 2 amps I own that would almost certainly drive it well are the V281 & Wells Audio Milo (they're also the two best SS amps I've yet heard in this hobby).

Very interesting to read about this promising new planar design.