[ecclesand]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calexico /img/forum/go_quote.gif But if you actually ARE grumpy, I guess it makes sense that you'd take offense by it

I am grumpy most of the time so the term doesn't bother me. Just the opposite, it says to me that the person gets me, but still appreciates me for who I am. Of course I could be wrong.....HEY, WAIT A MINUTE!!!

 

[jsaliga]

This thread is probably a few nanoseconds away from getting sent to the abyss.

It doesn't appear that criticism of the moderating style on this site is a very welcome subject, and I can understand that up to a point. I know if I was a moderator here I would not want spend most of my time reading complaint threads that I wasn't doing enough as a moderator. But locking and deleting these threads will not solve the problem nor will removing these topics from public view invalidate the concerns being expressed in them.

There are no doubt some people here who seem to take particular pleasure in provoking others into a confrontation, and others simply bomb threads with crap until they get the attention of a moderator and in response the thread is locked. Perhaps it might be more effective to rid the forum of these members than it is to try to constantly police otherwise interesting threads that get crapped in by people who seem to have little else to offer. Just a thought.

I think most of the membership here understands that moderators have a thankless job. While I understand there is a lot of work involved (it is one of the reasons I am a contributing member here) but there are times where I wish there was a more active effort to get the troublemakers under control -- or simply gone from the forum. Perhaps there is such an effort, but if so then I can't say that I see these labors bearing any fruit.

--Jerome

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

While I understand there is a lot of work involved (it is one of the reasons I am a contributing member here) but there are times where I wish there was a more active effort to get the troublemakers under control -- or simply gone from the forum.

The problem is that one person's troublemaker is another person's hero. Unfortunately, since these "complaint/here's what's wrong with head-fi/things have changed since I first started/these people need to be banned" threads have appeared regularly since head-fi first started years ago, once again I find myself repeating the same response .... It is impossible to please everyone. .... because it simply is.

Even those most vocal in these recent threads (a small group by-the-way ... and a group you will find are usually behind practically all of these repetitive complaint threads) have various tolerance levels for the things they complain about....things they do themselves when they feel like it. "It's OK to make pointless posts ________ (insert individual member's ideal and acceptable allowable inane post number here) but not as much as ________ (insert targeted member's name here)".

Honestly, I find most (but not all) of these particular sort of complaint threads extremely hypocritical, arrogant, non-productive, and in some cases, intentionally devious with an ulterior motive .... being started simply to stir up trouble. Why, because the solution is really simple ... don't read or participate in a thread if it doesn't interest you, offends you, bore's you, or whatever. It really is that simple ... but that's obviously not good enough for some. Rather than moving on and participating in a discussion that does interest them, they'd rather take the time to post some insulting photo and/or make a snotty/sarcastic comment in the thread ... then start up a thread complaining that things aren't to their liking. They scream that "those people" are trolls, should be heavily moderated and/or banned and at the same time they scream that the moderators are too heavy-handed and the rules are wrong if their own thread/post is edited/deleted .... even when they know they're breaking the existing rules.

We are, and have always been very interested in what the members like/dislike/want/don't want. But we can't suck and blow at the same time, and if that means that some members have to suck it up and compromise on certain things, that's the way it is. We don't want people to leave, but if you aren't happy you are completely free to do just that. (this is not directed in anyone in particular BTW ... just to those who can't seem to accept that not everyone shares their specific likes/dislikes/wants/tolerance levels and feel the need to publicly bitch about it every two or three months) No amount of public complaining, judging, and whining is going to bring back 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. (which nearly always are looked upon with rose coloured glasses) Does it not stand to reason that a forum with 1,400 to 1,700 people online at any given moment is going to have 35 or 40 TIMES more inane posts/threads than a forum with 30 to 50 members online at any given moment? The General Discussion Forums are just that, General Discussion Forums. Stop being such judgmental/bossy busybodies and let others have their fun in their own way. As long as they aren't breaking the general rules, there's no need for them to listen to a handful of self-appointed "my way's the right way" quality control police. Again, if any particular discussions do not interest you, or irritate you, ignore them...it's not nearly such a huge travesty or as difficult as some would make out.

Rant over.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unfortunately, since these "complaint/here's what's wrong with head-fi/things have changed since I first started/these people need to be banned" threads have appeared regularly since head-fi first started years ago, once again I find myself repeating the same response .... .

If you find yourself repeating it, then perhaps it's time to rethink your response.

Also, do you think there is any merit to the idea of either limiting post count to the headhone-related forums or abolishing it altogether?

 

[Quaddy]

ths thread has been hijacked to some extent

this thread was intended as a legitimate post asking and/or helpfully pointing out to mods or admin that there *may* have been a site hiccup again, as i noticed some posts of others and one of mine had gone, which wouldnt normally have been deleted, or should i say, i wouldnt have expected to be deleted, hence my curiosity of whether that was the case or whether admins had removed stuff for their own reasons.

it seems some moaners and groaners have latched onto this thread cause their own bash a mod rants got shut down

this thread never did get an official answer, just users speculating (which is fine), so lock it away mee hearties!

 

[null_pointer_us]

Some forums leave "Moved: <thread title here>" and "Deleted: <thread title here>" entries behind just to show what's been done so that people aren't left wondering what happened.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Honestly, I find most (but not all) of these particular sort of complaint threads extremely hypocritical, arrogant, non-productive, and in some cases, intentionally devious with an ulterior motive .... being started simply to stir up trouble. Why, because the solution is really simple ... don't read or participate in a thread if it doesn't interest you, offends you, bore's you, or whatever. It really is that simple ... but that's obviously not good enough for some. Rather than moving on and participating in a discussion that does interest them, they'd rather take the time to post some insulting photo and/or make a snotty/sarcastic comment in the thread ... then start up a thread complaining that things aren't to their liking. They scream that "those people" are trolls, should be heavily moderated and/or banned and at the same time they scream that the moderators are too heavy-handed and the rules are wrong if their own thread/post is edited/deleted .... even when they know they're breaking the existing rules.

I just received a very nice PM from Jude regarding my last post and your post pretty much erases that and just makes me regret saying anything. I take issue with you because your comment is the equivalent to the police blaming victims for being victimized by criminals.

I don't care to debate this with you. It is a problem when thread crappers run people out of their own threads. And it happens a lot whether or not you care to acknowledge it.

Thank you.

--Jerome

 

[morphsci]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is that one person's troublemaker is another person's hero. Unfortunately, since these "complaint/here's what's wrong with head-fi/things have changed since I first started/these people need to be banned" threads have appeared regularly since head-fi first started years ago, once again I find myself repeating the same response .... It is impossible to please everyone. .... because it simply is. Even those most vocal in these recent threads (a small group by-the-way ... and a group you will find are usually behind practically all of these repetitive complaint threads) have various tolerance levels for the things they complain about....things they do themselves when they feel like it. "It's OK to make pointless posts ________ (insert individual member's ideal and acceptable allowable inane post number here) but not as much as ________ (insert targeted member's name here)". Honestly, I find most (but not all) of these particular sort of complaint threads extremely hypocritical, arrogant, non-productive, and in some cases, intentionally devious with an ulterior motive .... being started simply to stir up trouble. Why, because the solution is really simple ... don't read or participate in a thread if it doesn't interest you, offends you, bore's you, or whatever. It really is that simple ... but that's obviously not good enough for some. Rather than moving on and participating in a discussion that does interest them, they'd rather take the time to post some insulting photo and/or make a snotty/sarcastic comment in the thread ... then start up a thread complaining that things aren't to their liking. They scream that "those people" are trolls, should be heavily moderated and/or banned and at the same time they scream that the moderators are too heavy-handed and the rules are wrong if their own thread/post is edited/deleted .... even when they know they're breaking the existing rules. We are, and have always been very interested in what the members like/dislike/want/don't want. But we can't suck and blow at the same time, and if that means that some members have to suck it up and compromise on certain things, that's the way it is. We don't want people to leave, but if you aren't happy you are completely free to do just that. (this is not directed in anyone in particular BTW ... just to those who can't seem to accept that not everyone shares their specific likes/dislikes/wants/tolerance levels and feel the need to publicly bitch about it every two or three months) No amount of public complaining, judging, and whining is going to bring back 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. (which nearly always are looked upon with rose coloured glasses) Does it not stand to reason that a forum with 1,400 to 1,700 people online at any given moment is going to have 35 or 40 TIMES more inane posts/threads than a forum with 30 to 50 members online at any given moment? The General Discussion Forums are just that, General Discussion Forums. Stop being such judgmental/bossy busybodies and let others have their fun in their own way. As long as they aren't breaking the general rules, there's no need for them to listen to a handful of self-appointed "my way's the right way" quality control police. Again, if any particular discussions do not interest you, or irritate you, ignore them...it's not nearly such a huge travesty or as difficult as some would make out. Rant over.

Well I am sorry but that is not a very rational response in my mind. If you are saying that the overall information content in the threads here has not decreased from "the early days" then I must suggest that you return Bono's glasses to him. You also seem to be having a rather violent reaction to people expressing their opinion in a rather (with some exceptions **cough*Milkweg*cough**) eloquent and calm manner.

I rarely post here any more simply because there are simply too many useless thread titles that I have to wade through to find anything useful when I hit the new posts button. Even when I look in individual forums the dross usually pushes the posts that are useful to me off of the first or sometimes off of the first few page(s).

One really useful suggestion that you seem to have missed is to simply not count posts in the non-audio related forums as part of one's post-count. Another is to eliminate post count related titles altogether. I would like to see a reponse addressing those suggestions rather than a knee-jerk response.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

If you find yourself repeating it, then perhaps it's time to rethink your response.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. Most truths don't change. The fact is, threads lamenting that things aren't the way they used to be and/or things are going to hell in a hand basket, started appearing within months of Head-fi's first beginnings. With a membership that has continuously been growing and is constantly in flux, that's to be expected to a certain degree. What infuriates me however, is when I see the exact same small group of people either instigating or participating every time one of these complaint threads appears. What infuriates me is when I see an obvious conflict of interest which opens the door to ulterior motives with regards to a certain very small group of these same people who always seem to either start or participate in these sort of threads. Take this recent repetitive bitch-fest for example. How many different people actually participated .... out of the thousands upon thousands of members who frequented the site while the thread was active? Should we jump through hoops, start banning people, create new rules, and capitulate to whatever suggestions and demands a tiny handful of complainers thinks should be done every time one of these sort of threads is started .... especially when it's obviously only an issue for a tiny percentage of Head-fi's audience ... and for some of that tiny percentage it's only an issue because they enjoy conflict? I don't think so.

 

[mr_baseball_08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is that one person's troublemaker is another person's hero.

I couldn't agree more. A somewhat esteemed member here despises me and I am not too fond of him. We mostly just try to stay out of one anothers way these days.

 

[boomana]

mbriant, what ulterior motivation does Duggeh have? You may believe that I do, but you'd be wrong. I genuinely care about head-fi, about keeping the quality and knowledge that is offered here, and have tried to demonstrate that, be that in my posting or helping organize CanJam '08. Yes, I've tossed off the occasional snarky post out of frustration, and I've posted a lot of nonsense in the meet threads. If you look at the list of folks who posted in the thread that was deleted, I think you'd find that most have been dedicated members, have purchased and shared a lot of gear, been to and organized meets, have made continual attempts to help newer members with choices, and/or helped with DIY builds, and have made friends and had fun along the way. If sometimes some of us get frustrated with the changes (some good, some bad), I don't think it's breaking the rules to express that reasonably, with maybe even some suggestions, even if they end up being dismissed as not necessary or even just plain wrong.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is that one person's troublemaker is another person's hero. Unfortunately, since these "complaint/here's what's wrong with head-fi/things have changed since I first started/these people need to be banned" threads have appeared regularly since head-fi first started years ago, once again I find myself repeating the same response .... It is impossible to please everyone. .... because it simply is.

I don't recall anyone calling for bans, and as you are as you post further on, interested in what people like or dislike about the site (and I can understand that most often it is the voices of discontent which are loudest, praise is all too often passive) then how are lay-members to go about articulating those opinions if not in the manner which was employed?


Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Even those most vocal in these recent threads (a small group by-the-way ... and a group you will find are usually behind practically all of these repetitive complaint threads) have various tolerance levels for the things they complain about....things they do themselves when they feel like it. "It's OK to make pointless posts ________ (insert individual member's ideal and acceptable allowable inane post number here) but not as much as ________ (insert targeted member's name here)".

There are always small groups who are responsible for any such thread beause by the very nature of any such thread there are only a certain number who are vocal about any matter. The size of a group or the regularity with which an individual may make comment on any matter does not dilute the worthiness of that matter for discussion.

There was also, insofar as I recall, no call for a quantifiable limit on what people post and how often they post it, rather it was a call for a greater seperation between these threads which as you say yourself are inane, there was also no self-richeous proclamations from the parties concerned that they were whiter than white and never posted anything other than involved and meticulous Socratic dialogue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Honestly, I find most (but not all) of these particular sort of complaint threads extremely hypocritical, arrogant, non-productive, and in some cases, intentionally devious with an ulterior motive .... being started simply to stir up trouble.

I don't think that there was the hypocrasy you refer to, I think that in any such discussion thread there is a careful need to draw a line where forthrightness and solidity of opinion and the manner of its articulation transgresses into arrogance and the problem is that any individual uses a differetn coloured pen to draw that line and draws it in a different place. As far as non-productive is concerned, that is only because they are never permitted to reach any stage of productivity before they either degenerate into diluted nonsense because of flame baters and bose-kitty posters, or never recieve any comment from the powers-that-be except after the fact following continued protestation. Intentionally devious? I think that you go too far there, any discussion of a contentious issue is clearly going to result in a conflict of opinions but to insinuate that such threads are started purely for the purposes of ignition through friction of confrontational conflagration I find incredulous.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why, because the solution is really simple ... don't read or participate in a thread if it doesn't interest you, offends you, bore's you, or whatever. It really is that simple ... but that's obviously not good enough for some. Rather than moving on and participating in a discussion that does interest them, they'd rather take the time to post some insulting photo and/or make a snotty/sarcastic comment in the thread ... then start up a thread complaining that things aren't to their liking. They scream that "those people" are trolls, should be heavily moderated and/or banned and at the same time they scream that the moderators are too heavy-handed and the rules are wrong if their own thread/post is edited/deleted .... even when they know they're breaking the existing rules.

There are no easy metaphors to draw here because they'd be shot down as being rediculous but the attitude you aspose is one of doe-eyed ignorance. I also don't see where the rules of the site were broken in the locked thread, and at what point those of the small troublemaking group you refer to were the ones posting snotty, dismissive or sarcastic commentary. Although, to fit in with your description as a troll hunter, there was one individual who fit that description quite well.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif We are, and have always been very interested in what the members like/dislike/want/don't want. But we can't suck and blow at the same time, and if that means that some members have to suck it up and compromise on certain things, that's the way it is. We don't want people to leave, but if you aren't happy you are completely free to do just that. (this is not directed in anyone in particular BTW ... just to those who can't seem to accept that not everyone shares their specific likes/dislikes/wants/tolerance levels and feel the need to publicly bitch about it every two or three months)

I don't see how some of the solutions to problems raised would have resulted in anybody "sucking it up" any more than people already do. A new sub-forum or a change in the post-count system wouldn't descriminate against anyone because they would still be as free as they had been previously to post what they already are.

I also don't think that the conversation which was taking place constituted bitching, ignoring the posts which were not constructive towards that discussion and called those who were involved on one side arrogant or elitist.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif No amount of public complaining, judging, and whining is going to bring back 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008. (which nearly always are looked upon with rose coloured glasses)

Just because one cannot bring back the "rose tinted past", and indeed this was not at any stage the aim of the locked discussion, does not mean that there cannot be discussion of how things might progress into the future.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does it not stand to reason that a forum with 1,400 to 1,700 people online at any given moment is going to have 35 or 40 TIMES more inane posts/threads than a forum with 30 to 50 members online at any given moment? The General Discussion Forums are just that, General Discussion Forums. Stop being such judgmental/bossy busybodies and let others have their fun in their own way. As long as they aren't breaking the general rules, there's no need for them to listen to a handful of self-appointed "my way's the right way" quality control police. Again, if any particular discussions do not interest you, or irritate you, ignore them...it's not nearly such a huge travesty or as difficult as some would make out.

So the threads and posts are inane. But the size of a forum does not dictate that proliferation of inanity, the institutional tolerance for it does. A forum could be ten times the size of head-fi and have very little such content at all, if the forum policy and or attitude is not lenient to that sort of thing.

And again, this isn't about "do it my way or be damned" its about creating a partition through one means or another, that permits parties on either side of the fence to be able to carry on, broadly, as they do now, while resulting in less suction needed for all of the sucking it up, or smaller blinkers for the ignorance view.

--edit--

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps, but I don't think so. Most truths don't change. The fact is, threads lamenting that things aren't the way they used to be and/or things are going to hell in a hand basket, started appearing within months of Head-fi's first beginnings. With a membership that has continuously been growing and is constantly in flux, that's to be expected to a certain degree. What infuriates me however, is when I see the exact same small group of people either instigating or participating every time one of these complaint threads appears. What infuriates me is when I see an obvious conflict of interest which opens the door to ulterior motives with regards to a certain very small group of these same people who always seem to either start or participate in these sort of threads. Take this recent repetitive bitch-fest for example. How many different people actually participated .... out of the thousands upon thousands of members who frequented the site while the thread was active? Should we jump through hoops, start banning people, create new rules, and capitulate to whatever suggestions and demands a tiny handful of complainers thinks should be done every time one of these sort of threads is started .... especially when it's obviously only an issue for a tiny percentage of Head-fi's audience ... and for some of that tiny percentage it's only an issue because they enjoy conflict? I don't think so.

How can people who might participate in the discussion get to, if its locked within a short time of its creation? That thread saw more traffic and more posts during that short period than most threads in the members lounge do over a similar period and for those reasons alone I think that your point here is void.

 

[The Monkey]

mbriant, I'm curious about what you think are these ulterior motives. Speaking for myself--which of course is the only person for whom I can speak--my participation in the threads at issue was motivated by a desire to improve things within a community that I very much like and for which I am grateful. Certainly reasonable minds can differ on whether things need improving or not, but I do not think it reasonably can be argued that there are not two sides to the debate.

As for a small group of vocal members, I do not think the conclusion follows that these issues are important to only a tiny percentage of head-fiers. First, there are no data to support that claim and, second, the hostility with which crtitical posts/threads are received might have a chilling effect. We simply don't know.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

One really useful suggestion that you seem to have missed is to simply not count posts in the non-audio related forums as part of one's post-count. Another is to eliminate post count related titles altogether. I would like to see a reponse addressing those suggestions rather than a knee-jerk response.

We take a hard look at any and all suggestions (once we filter them out from the petty complaints, insults, exaggerations, misinformation, speculation, conspiracy theories, and accusations they are nearly always are buried in. But it's not like this is the first, or second, or even tenth time these exact same suggestions have been made over the years. I'm not saying that these or any other suggestions will or will not ever be implemented, but isn't the fact that so far, after being brought up so many times in the past and having been rejected time and again so far, answer enough? Again, I refer you to my previous posts....it's impossible to please everyone. And very few things are black and white. Certainly there is some merit in these suggestions, just as there is merit in leaving things as they were .... so that new and future members can enjoy the same things that you and every one else who has been here for a while has enjoyed. I don't recall ANY of the members who have complained about post count abuses, complaining about it as they watched their own and their online Head-fi peer's post counts grow. But now, it's an issue .... to them.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphsci /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....I rarely post here any more simply because there are simply too many useless thread titles that I have to wade through to find anything useful when I hit the new posts button. Even when I look in individual forums the dross usually pushes the posts that are useful to me off of the first or sometimes off of the first few page(s)....

I just hit "new posts" and saw a lot of relevant threads. In fact, that's far more common than not.

Whether you realize it or not, opinions are taken into consideration, but, no, I admittedly have not, in going on eight years, left much in the way of final decisions on implementing/trying things to committee or vote (outside of the moderator team). Given what time there is to do moderating, sometimes we just have to do. I know this ticks off some, but, hey, we're not deciding the fate of the economy, healthcare, the environment, war and peace, etc. So, yes, we just do most of the time, because, like most of you, we all have jobs, personal responsibilities and obligations, and already spend a disproportionate amount of our Head-Fi time on moderating and administrative duties.

Sometimes we goof. I goofed the other day when I implemented the no-replies rule/mechanism in the Gear FS/T forums. I reversed it after a few days, after reading and receiving what I considered very valid opinions criticizing it. I'm personally still inclined to think that the 50-post minimum to post in Gear FS/T is a mistake, as it seems to push a lot of people to make those first 50 posts very quickly. (And we can all see how long ago someone registered, how many posts he has, and whether or not he has any feedback here.)

But you know what? Overwhelmingly most of the people on this forum seem to me to think this community is solid, informative and caring--moreso than many communities its size or bigger. When it seems to me that's not the case anymore (which I hope we don't let it get to), maybe I'll start putting administrative decisions up for a vote--I'll tell you now, though, that I'm not even close to that at this point.

As always I have, I care greatly for this community, and I do read and take into consideration the opinions of those who contact me. But, as I've said before, if something I do ticks off just 1% of you, that's still a lot of people ticked off, and I've learned to accept that as a reality.

With that, I'm closing this thread (and I know this will tick off at least 1% of you, and probably more). But know that I have, and will, consider what I've read in it. Why am I closing it? Because today's not the day that I'm going to start discussing and publicly arguing about how this forum is moderated. Before you tell me how draconian that is, know that it's actually not very uncommon at other forums I visit (although that fact might not make it any less draconian to some of you).