[Teerawit]

The point of sending the amp to the Ohio meet was so that respected Head-Fiers can audition and critique the amp, right?

So the attendees won't be able to listen to the amp for an extended period and can only give impressions. However this doesn't stop sacd lover from listening to the amp after the meet is over to give a proper review.

I say send it so sacd lover can compare it to his fortress of Singlepower amps

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teerawit The point of sending the amp to the Ohio meet was so that respected Head-Fiers can audition and critique the amp, right?

I don't want to get involved in whatever feud is taking place between Art and other head-fi members, but have to say I think he has good reason not wanting to send his amp to a meet. Particularly with the atmosphere that's been created in this thread, some people will be "critiquing" with axes to grind and thus the criticism is likely to be unfair. I'm not saying this unfairness would necessarily be conscious either.

All this is aside from the issue he brought up about subtleties not being perceived at meets (or even completely incorrect impressions, which I've been subject to myself at meets or meet-like situations). Sorry, but I think he has a point.

P.S. lest I get caught up in this, I'm not too fond of the way Art expresses his opinions around here, as if they were objective fact. Not that it matters any in the scheme of things.

 

[Teerawit]

Hey, you responded to the non-essential sentence of my post. Meet impressions would be a disclaimer anyway and people should take them with a grain of salt. Here's the quintessence:

Quote:

However this doesn't stop sacd lover from listening to the amp after the meet is over to give a proper review. I say send it so sacd lover can compare it to his fortress of Singlepower amps

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch I don't want to get involved in whatever feud is taking place between Art and other head-fi members, but have to say I think he has good reason not wanting to send his amp to a meet. Particularly with the atmosphere that's been created in this thread, people will be "critiquing" with axes to grind and thus the criticism is likely to be unfair. I'm not saying this unfairness would necessarily be conscious either. All this is aside from the issue he brought up about subtleties not being perceived at meets (or even completely incorrect impressions, which I've been subject to myself at meets or meet-like settings). Sorry, but I think he has a point.

We arent talking subtleties here ... Bada PH12 the best headphone amp at any price. Dr. ART proclaimed .... superior to all $2000 amps and as good as amps above that price; just different. You dont think you could ascertain the amp, IF ITS THIS GOOD, was at a quality level well above the norm at a meet. Moreover, while you may not pick up every subtety you can certainly tell if the amp sounds good or not. In this case the listeners magical system was to be duplicated. There would be no issues with synergy, incorrect setup and so on. Whats the problem?

Fewch, I always find you like to weigh in on issues but you never seem to follow your own advice. I remember the recent akg 240s thread. I looked that up and you received the 240s headphone on 1/19/06 .... and you were selling the headphone by 1/21/06. Obviously you can make determinations much faster than you want to claim. Oh and then there was that oehlbach cable that you burnt in for what .... 8 hours and determined you didnt like the cable. Thats certainly fine if you know you dont like something. But dont give me these standards you clearly dont follow and tell us we cant make a basic determination as to an amps sound quality at a meet. Some meets are listening meets and people barely talk. If you make the effort you can certainly obtain correct impressions as to an amps overall quality even at a meet .... and that has been the objective, not a be all end all final assessment. This has been repeated numerous times in this thread.

Finally, an axe to grind. All anybody wants is to hear the amp. If its good we would say its good. This is assessing a headphone amp not some life and death decision.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover Fewch, I always find you like to weigh in on issues but you never seem to follow your own advice. I remember the recent akg 240s thread. I looked that up and you received the 240s headphone on 1/19/06 .... and you were selling the headphone by 1/21/06. Obviously you can make determinations much faster than you want to claim.

If a headphone is drastically worse than expected, sure. With high end amps, we're basically talking about subtle differences in my opinion. More subtle than sources even, sometimes. At least to my ears.

Quote:

Oh and then there was that oehlbach cable that you burnt in for what .... 8 hours and determined you didnt like the cable. Thats certainly fine if you know you dont like something.

It was a drastic difference to my ears, so I didn't need long in that case.

Quote:

Finally, an axe to grind. All anybody wants is to hear the amp.

Who do you think you're fooling?

Quote:

If its good we would say its good. This is assessing a headphone amp not some life and death decision.

Yeah, right. Judging from the content of this thread, many people are looking for an excuse to crucify Art for making the statements he has made. I don't blame those who feel this way, but some folks will definitely find a conscious or subconscious reason to skewer "Art's amp" -- and it has nothing to do with life and death decisions.

If all anybody really wants is to hear the amp, they don't need Art to do it. But it's all too obvious that's not at all what people want to do, they want to publicly debunk Art. In fact I hate say it, but I don't consider Aerius's review unbiased in a case like this. I mean, these were his first words in the review:

Quote:

Other than a certain someone who believes the Bada PH-12 is the be-all end-all of all headphone amps,

No reviewer can be properly neutral when they badly want to find reasons to debunk somebody's statements. If Aerius had truly just made this a review without the personal B.S. I might feel differently. In this case, there's too much suspicion of subconscious bias on his part.

 

[PFKMan23]

fewtch,

What is your experience with high level amplifiers? You say that they are not worth it. What set ups have you heard for extended periods that have had high lecel sources and amps? And what types of meets hae you gone to? Depending on the atmosphere you can get critical listening done. And even if not, you can make certain personal evaluations. In essence while I belive that meets are not the best of lsitening venues they still do have theiir role or else we wouldn't spend the time and money to have them.

As far as art goes, if he really feels the way he does he wouldn't have a problem submitting his set up to other headfiers and no it doesn't even have to be Earl. He can trudge over to a meet himself.

As far as aerius's bias comes into play alot of it does have the expectation that Art himself has set up. He has repeatedly said that the BADA is the best amp for under 2k. Now I am in the process of getting an amplifer that costs quite a bit of money, if I can stand to save that money I'd love to. However anytime anyone makes a blanket statement like Art has, then you really have to look at value of it.

Moreover if you want to look at bias, every product that Art recommends comes from Cattylink save for the Sony SA5000. If you want to bring up Aerius' bias, then Art needs to look at himself as well.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 fewtch, What is your experience with high level amplifiers? You say that they are not worth it.

HUH?? Where did I say that?

It seems you made that one up out of thin air.

Quote:

What set ups have you heard for extended periods that have had high lecel sources and amps? And what types of meets hae you gone to?

When I say "meets," take it to mean any brief, short-term listening experience -- same difference. I've had plenty of those, and also plenty of long term experiences.

Quote:

As far as art goes, if he really feels the way he does he wouldn't have a problem submitting his set up to other headfiers and no it doesn't even have to be Earl. HE can trudge over to a meet himself.

See, you're voicing it as a challenge... the whole thing is emotionally loaded and a bunch of utter nonsense. What a joke.

 

[PFKMan23]

If a headphone is drastically worse than expected, sure. With high end amps, we're basically talking about subtle differences in my opinion. More subtle than sources even, sometimes. At least to my ears.

/QUOTE]

It seems obvious to me that you do not find value in higher level amplifers. I wanto know what expereince you have to make that staement. I mean, if a person has only heard things like CMOYs, MINITs and such, but then goes and says things like the PPX3 SLAM are not worth it, then well their opinion doesn't really mean anything excedpt a loos phrase in the air.

That said, I would not call Art's statement subtle saying that his amp bests those under 2k is a very large statement that encompasses many many amps and we wantto know his experience with thse amps.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch With high end amps, we're basically talking about subtle differences in my opinion. More subtle than sources even, sometimes. At least to my ears.

Yes, and it's the subtleties that matter, and that take time to pick up on. Go back and read my first post on meet impressions in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 It seems obvious to me that you do not find value in higher level amplifers.

Stop putting words in my mouth, I said *nothing* about whether I value high end amplifiers or not!

Quote:

I wanto know what expereince you have to make that staement.

Dammit, YOU made the statement. I said nothing about whether I value high end amps. Get it? DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH THAT I DID NOT SAY, OR EVEN HINT AT. Jesus, do you do this to people when talking in person? I'd hang the phone up in your ear if this were a phone call.

 

[PFKMan23]

Moving on, in any case I do find certain utility in Aerius' review. It seems to be that the Bada PH12 only works well within a certain set up with a certain configuration (E5 --> BADA (with the Shangling/EH tubes) --> SA5k. And given that fact it seems to only be valid in this set up, then in my mind there is little value as I do not have the finacial flexibility to accomodate 1 rig for 1 can. I will say this though, if I am ever in your neck of the woods Art, I really do want to hear this set up.

As far as people being more bold on the internet, that is inevitable that I am sure that most if not, all out be guilty of given it's impresonal nature.

 

[Elephas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 That said, I would not call Art's statement subtle saying that his amp bests those under 2k is a very large statement that encompasses many many amps and we wantto know his experience with thse amps.

Agreed.

However, your sig, "Team SinglePower" and Mikhail listed under your "Head-Fi heroes" is not exactly subtle either.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23 As far as people being more bold on the internet, that is inevitable that I am sure that most if not, all out be guilty of given it's impresonal nature.

Impersonal, huh? So explain to me why everyone's so interested in the claims of some person they don't know except over the Internet? Why such uproar?

I must say this thread is highly amusing... except for the initial post it's typical Head-Fi fare, throwaway fluff that never fails to entertain. It's a bit disappointing that someone would inject personal issues into a review though.

 

[PFKMan23]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas Agreed. However, your sig, "Team SinglePower" and Mikhail listed under your "Head-Fi heroes" is not exactly subtle either.

I never claimed it was. That said anyone who has Team ____ in their sigs is neutral, which would mean that many users are guilty of this.

That said I said I am curious about this set up. And the only person who I think would be unbiased is a person who has heard basically no high level headphones becasue people tend to gravitate toward certain sound signaturse and such.

 

[philodox]

People take the 'meet conditions' thing a little far sometimes I think. Sure, you wouldn't want to make a final decision on a piece of gear under meet conditions, but if you listen to two headphones and hear a difference... that difference IS there. Through further listening in a quiet environment [usually you can find such a room at a meet] you may even be able to expand on your opinions of a piece of gear. Meet impressions are not useless, they are very usefull. Where else can you sample such a large amount of various gear in one place at one time?

 

[mjg]

ehh nevermind.