[elrod-tom]

I don't want to see any more personalized sniping on this page, or the thread will be locked.

I can understand how some might question a reviewer's perspective on a certain piece of gear. This is especially so if said reviewer has a history of, shall we say, favoring one manufacturer's gear above all others.

That said, we discuss things like this respectfully, and this thread is getting out of hand IMHO.

 

[drarthurwells]

I want a sharp edge and transient bite to my sound, with sharp edge definition, like the better SS headphone amps offer. When a symphony orchestra hits a crescendo I want to fully hear the dynamic impact with a razor sharp onset, like the best solid state. I want well defined bass like the best solid state.

However I also want more tone body than solid state amps offer. I do love the tube richness of tone.

My experience has lead me to believe that either all solid state or all tube amplification involves some compromise that can be overcome by the tube and solid state combo. Some tube preamp and solid state amp combos work better than others, so some matching is required.

I also don't want the tube influence to start at the source, like in the CDP, but prefer a solid state CDP and then add the tube influence next, then the solid state again at output.

I think the hybrid design headphone amp is the best headphone in the world, just as I think the home speaker system tube-preamp and solid-state-amp combo is the best speaker amplification in the world.

The Bada PH12, with the tubes I recommend, gives me the best of the Lehmann black cube linear solid state amp and the Ming Da (Meixing) MC66AE in one amp, and is superior to either for this reason (though either alone offers fine sound, and either alone is better than the Bada PH12 used with 3 Shuguang 6N8P tubes).

If the Bada PH12 were made in the USA it would cost $1000 or more.

So, until I hear better, the Bada PH12 with the tubes I use is better than any all solid state amp or any all tube amp, no matter their costs. That is because all solid amps amps have some tone leanness relative to tube amps, and all tube amps fall short of the the best solid state characteristics. When solid state amps are designed to sound like tube amps, they sacrifice their good solid state characteristics, and vice-versa when tube amps are designed to sound like solid state amps.

Some 25 years ago Carver demionstrated a soldid state amp that amazed audiophiles by having the tone richness of tubes - a breakthrough! It never was sold as it soon became apparent that this was achieved at the expense of other characteristcs and the sound was less than satisfying on the whole.

So, if anyone who would like to trade amps with me for a week please contact me. We both shipping back and forth, toequalize the cost.

I plan to buy a FEEL 200SE in hopes that it will be better than the Bada PH12, as it looks like it would cost $1500 if made in the USA.

In the meantime I am thoroughly enjoying the extremely natural timbre and realistic sound of the Bada PH12 - the best headphone amp you can get (except for your own, and in my opnion)

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom I don't want to see any more personalized sniping on this page, or the thread will be locked. I can understand how some might question a reviewer's perspective on a certain piece of gear. This is especially so if said reviewer has a history of, shall we say, favoring one manufacturer's gear above all others. That said, we discuss things like this respectfully, and this thread is getting out of hand IMHO.

Thanks for allowing us to freely air out things.

We are all seeking better sound and this site has certainly helped me to enhance my music listening enjoyment.

 

[Elephas]

I don't think drarthurwells would be interested in trading amps with me, so it's up to someone else to take up his offer.

(Sorry, a lame attempt at humor to inject some levity into this thread)

BTW, I encountered a FEEL HP-2000 amp at a meet in Hong Kong last summer.

Fourth photo down in this thread:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126776

 

[aerius]

Tell you what Art, I spoke with the owner of the Bada earlier today regarding this thread and your desire to start a dialogue with him. He has read through it, and will agree to an email exchange provided the following questions are answered to his satisfaction.

1) Why do you want me to contact you regarding the Bada? Why should I be involved?

2) What do you want to discuss with me that can't be said in the thread?

3) Do you agree to have all emails fowarded to a 3rd party to be posted for everyone to see?

 

[PhilS]

Seems to me we've come pretty far, and that there really is not much point to continued debate, at least in some respects. Dr. Art seems to have conceded that his statements regarding the Bada, and related statements regarding tubes vs. solid state amps, are his opinion, based on his experience. Thus, they are necessarily subjective. Therefore, all a meet or individual comparison is going to reveal is that the reviewers either agree or disagree with Dr. Art's opinions. I think it is safe to say that many will not agree, just based on the different preferences that folks have, and based on their own experiences, etc.. This is no reflection on Dr. Art's opinion, necessarily, although I suppose there may be a question about whether his experience is broad enough to give his opinion any real credibility (just as there may be a question as to whether the conditions the reviewers evaluate the amp under are as good as the conidtions udner which Dr. Art evaluated the amp). But the fact is, he is not going to change his opinion just because others disagree with it. And we no longer really need to address whether the Bada is the best headphone amp at $450, $2000, or any price, or whatever, for every person regardless of their system or preferences, because (besides being patently absurd), it does not appear that Dr. Art really meant to make this type of categorical statement, but merely as his view based on what he hears, what he has heard, and what he likes. He was just misunderstood because he tends to state his opinions in an absolute fashion.

Thus, while it seems it is still a worthwhile effort for some folks to evaluate the Bada to see if it is any good and whether it is an amp that forum members want to consider ("Knowledge is Good" - Animal House (1978)), it does not seem that we need to obsess any more about whether Dr. Art is "right" or "wrong," or whether anybody else is right or wrong, or whether anybody needs to "prove" anything as these are all just matters of opinion and people should take them as such.

 

[Teerawit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox People take the 'meet conditions' thing a little far sometimes I think. Sure, you wouldn't want to make a final decision on a piece of gear under meet conditions, but if you listen to two headphones and hear a difference... that difference IS there. Through further listening in a quiet environment [usually you can find such a room at a meet] you may even be able to expand on your opinions of a piece of gear. Meet impressions are not useless, they are very usefull. Where else can you sample such a large amount of various gear in one place at one time?

I agree with you file-o'-docks

Surely a noticeable difference can be heard (especially to head-fiers trained in this kind of listening) between $450 gear and $2000 gear?

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch If a headphone is drastically worse than expected, sure. With high end amps, we're basically talking about subtle differences in my opinion. More subtle than sources even, sometimes. At least to my ears. Earl: That wasnt your statement. You stated you agreed with Art that it takes you a week to determine if you like gear. Well ..... I pointed out two examples where that wasnt the case .... correct? So is there some set amount of time thats necessary to make a decision if you like something or not? No there is not. Are amp differences as subtle as you describe .... not in my experiences. The difference between tube sets in the same amp can be night and day. It was a drastic difference to my ears, so I didn't need long in that case. Earl: But there couldnt be a drastic difference with an amp thats being described as being as good or better than amps costing 5 x the Bada's price? We couldnt get some general idea as to wheter the Bada is good or not. If the Bada's that good we wouldnt notice? Who do you think you're fooling? Earl: Maybe you could explain this because I am clueless what you are talking about. Yeah, right. Judging from the content of this thread, many people are looking for an excuse to crucify Art for making the statements he has made. I don't blame those who feel this way, but some folks will definitely find a conscious or subconscious reason to skewer "Art's amp" -- and it has nothing to do with life and death decisions. If all anybody really wants is to hear the amp, they don't need Art to do it. But it's all too obvious that's not at all what people want to do, they want to publicly debunk Art. In fact I hate say it, but I don't consider Aerius's review unbiased in a case like this. I mean, these were his first words in the review: No reviewer can be properly neutral when they badly want to find reasons to debunk somebody's statements. If Aerius had truly just made this a review without the personal B.S. I might feel differently. In this case, there's too much suspicion of subconscious bias on his part. Earl: First, if someone wants to make lofty claims its up to them to back them up. The offer to set the amp up in the preferred configuration of the claimant with a room full of neutral partries is biased somehow? How many products are ever afforded that luxury at a meet. You feel you can evaluate the amp in a vacuum with no comparisons? I remember you raving about the Creek obh-11 ... until you heard something else .... and now your comments in regard to that product are not kind. Would people like to know how, the amp sounds with something other than the E5 and sa5000, since obviously most people will not have these particular components in their system? I would say yes. I dont care to crucify anyone and your comments are the ones along those lines. What is going on here. Aerius sees someone has the Bada and takes the time to check the amp out and YOU CLAIM he has an agenda because he and the dr. havent seen eye to eye in the past. What set me off from the beginning is that someone, in this case aerius, does get an opportunity to hear the amp and render their basically positive conclusions .... then they are attacked as being biased because they didnt render the same rave comparisons. My offer was motivated by the this thread. Sure, I am curious about the amp, anyone should be if its as good as claimed. But when someone wants to make lofty claims and then cry foul because someones observations dont match theirs .... well here was their opportunity .... and all they do is come up with excuses. Yes, people can hear the amp if they want to buy one. Which goes to another point .... if I or anyone else was truely so desirous to prove someone wrong why wouldnt I just buy the amp and do it. I can drop the $450 bucks on the amp no problem. But the fact is I dont care enough to do so. Furthermore, if I did we would have a grand total of one more opinion. Thats why I would wanted the amp at a meet where there would surely be some unbiased individuals and there would be some product for comparison. Back to aerius .... since he has some contention with the Dr. it only makes sense to recognize this right up front and acknowledge that fact at the very beginning. Thats what I would do too. That has nothing to do with bias. It has do with the likelihood if he didnt recognize and address this .... someone else would bring the subject up. I appeciate aerius effort and I dont buy for a minute he is biased and has an ulterior motive. Finally, I believe if you want a true assessment of the amp you need multiple opinions and you need product for comparison. You want to see how the amp performs with different equipment too. The claim is that the Bada is a the equal to a whole price point ($2000) of amps. How do you accomplish this is if you dont do any comparison .... thats impossible correct? I am sorry but if there is a better way to do this than a meet I would like to know what it is.

My offer still stands although I have little faith there will be an acceptance. Thats fine .... its Arts amp and he can do what he pleases.

 

[aerius]

Hey fewtch, are you taking lessons from Art in quoting out of context and attempting to create BS issues? Here's the full quote, so you can read it again.

Quote:

Other than a certain someone who believes the Bada PH-12 is the be-all end-all of all headphone amps, there's very little information around on the PH-12. Well, a few weeks ago I was auditioning tubes & CD players with some guys at a friend of a friend's place when I noticed he had a PH-12 sitting in a corner, and near the end of the listening session I asked if it would be ok for me to come back and take a listen to it some other time. He said sure, provided I bring along my own tube amp so he could also see how it measured up. So this past weeked we did an extended listening session of his PH-12 against my Objective-Interim 6SN7 amp, and to keep things fair I brought along a box of tubes. Also had a friend along to keep me honest and contribute her modded Senn 650's.

And then there's your accusations that I'm just pursuing a vendetta. Christ, if I wanted to dump on someone's gear I wouldn't even bother writing a review, it's too much ******* work.

But since you brought that up, I might as well say you're just ticked at me because we've had disagreements in the past, and now you want to try and even up the score. Maybe you're the one with a vendetta and you're just projecting it onto others. Yes, I too can make up BS accusations. Take a hint.

 

[elnero]

Hey Hirsch, can you pass the popcorn over here?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leebert Again: this thread is spectacle.

You have a point, but it's also a fascinating (in terms of the study of human nature) and often hilarious spectacle.

Also, note that it's been going on so long we've moved from pretzels to popcorn for the spectators.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Again: this thread is spectacle. The proper thing to do is shut it down.

No one is forcing you to read this thread or post in it. Most of us are adults and don't need threads closed just because there is a disagreement. There are plenty of other forums like that. It looks like even Art would like to continue the discussion in this thread.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius Tell you what Art, I spoke with the owner of the Bada earlier today regarding this thread and your desire to start a dialogue with him. He has read through it, and will agree to an email exchange provided the following questions are answered to his satisfaction. 1) Why do you want me to contact you regarding the Bada? Why should I be involved? 2) What do you want to discuss with me that can't be said in the thread? 3) Do you agree to have all emails fowarded to a 3rd party to be posted for everyone to see?

I want to keep in touch with all Bada PH12 owners.
I am interested in the tubes you have used, what components you have and your impressions.
Yes we can exchange publically on the forum if mods will allow it but why do you want this? Why are you reluctant to communicate with me by email?

 

[drarthurwells]

I want people to listen to the Bada PH12, preferably with an E5 CD player and Sony SA5000 headphones, and definitely over a period of days of listening just to the Bada PH12.

I want people to hear what I have heard.

My headphone sound is better than it ever has been.

Anyone in the lower 48 states of the USA, wishing to swap amps for a week of listening, where they think their amp might be better the Bada, contact me for a swap.

Anyone in the Apopka, or Gainesville, Florida area, come listen and spend as much time as possible.

 

[elrod-tom]

I'd really like to keep this thread open...if possible. Let's keep it civil, and not question each other's integrity please. Thanks...