Micro iUSB3.0 Impressions Thread
Dec 10, 2023 at 3:55 PM Post #631 of 663
No, that's not how USB works.

Let's separate data (which is digital) and signal (which is analogue).

The source sends an analogue waveform in which digital data is encoded.

This waveform passes through the cable and at the sink end an analogue circuit decides if it has a "transition", that is, if a lower Level changed to a higher level or a higher to a lower and the "decision circuit" works on absolute values.

All of this works best if the "edges" are clear (square waves). At 480Mbps square waves become truncated triangles (actually at much lower frequencies).

images - 2023-11-19T045620.693.jpeg

We get something called an "eye pattern" because it kinda looks like the eye of Ra.

The more "open" the eye, the easier the detection of 0 or 1.

It is of course possible to make circuits detect logic levels reliably under difficult conditions and you get some that, while passing USB Standard Compliance Testing do terrible in the real world.

This problem is analogue, not digital. The usual USB hardware on CPU chips (programmed to become USB to audio bridges) are functional. Not much more.

When you take a hub or repeater, it will only detect 0 or 1 and pass that on. Usually there is not intelligence there, so it doesn't care if the data is right or not. It just repeats what it gets.

As it so happens, Hub Chip makers tend to make better USB analogue Hardware than CPU Chip makers.

So back to our USB gizmo (in series). Let's take my earlier 25m multiple USB Repeater active USB cable.

After the first 5m cable (let's use a cheap one) the signal is already at the limits of us standards.

Or beyond, if the cable was made cheaply in ch!na or by some artisan in a garage workshop using nine nines pure silver in Teflon sleeving hand twisted and without sound quality damaging screen.

If we choose a "good" hub / repeater / receiver chip, it will reliable detect the data embedded in a badly degraded signal (poor signal integrity but as system high data integrity). And it will pass this signal into the next cable. And so on.

Note, nothing tries to actually make sense of the signal or data, all it does is to repeat (and route one to many ports) the received signal.

If we have a CPU Chip made by the lowest bidder fab in mainland china (who perhaps generously provide the USB IP for free) we may have problems even with signals that are just barely beyond standard (good or adequate signal integrity but due to poor chip design poor data integrity).

If we have such a CPU chip as downstream USB device (all the common ones are like this) then given all else in USB audio Class (2) we have high risk problems of data integrity problems.

Here, a USB gizmo can help by re-producing a clean, wide open eye eye pattern with minimal calling in-between to make it worth again.

And daisy-chainging 5 x 5m super cheap cabled made in ch!na or by some artisan in a garage workshop using nine nines pure silver in Teflon sleeving hand twisted and without sound quality damaging screen with 5 repeaters will make sure that at the input pons of our USB 2 AUDIO bridge IC the eye pattern is near perfect, even if after every 5m it was so bad with just source cable and sink you would already get dropouts.

I know that doesn't quite address your question but hopefully answers to perfectly reasonable thinking behind it.

Thor
This is such a great post, the wealth of knowledge shared. I wish I could upvote! :beerchug:
 
Dec 11, 2023 at 6:00 PM Post #634 of 663
i need some clarification on something, does the iUSB3.0 work if you use a "data" only cable to connect it to the PC, or does it need both data+power ?
You connect it as any other dac with a usb b to usb a cable as all the power it needs is already provided by its external power supply you have to plug into the wall to make it work.
 
Dec 11, 2023 at 6:29 PM Post #635 of 663
i need some clarification on something, does the iUSB3.0 work if you use a "data" only cable to connect it to the PC, or does it need both data+power ?
The extra power output is really only for dual headed usb cables like ifi gemini, you can use regular cables just fine. But id suggest getting an ipurfier3 instead if you only have a single headed cable and dont have dirty power.
 
Dec 11, 2023 at 6:31 PM Post #636 of 663
You connect it as any other dac with a usb b to usb a cable as all the power it needs is already provided by its external power supply you have to plug into the wall to make it work.
from what i know, some devices even though they have an external power supply, they require the 5v from the cable to do the handshake with the pc.
that`s why i want to know before i buy the device.
The extra power output is really only for dual headed usb cables like ifi gemini, you can use regular cables just fine. But id suggest getting an ipurfier3 instead if you only have a single headed cable and dont have dirty power.
my question is regarding the input, from the pc to the iusb3.0 and not from the iusb3.0 to the dac.
 
Dec 11, 2023 at 6:33 PM Post #637 of 663
from what i know, some devices even though they have an external power supply, they require the 5v from the cable to do the handshake with the pc.
that`s why i want to know before i buy the device.

my question is regarding the input, from the pc to the iusb3.0 and not from the iusb3.0 to the dac.
You have a cable with *only* data and absolutely no power pins? I dont exactly know how that even works but i can say for sure that you can use a regular usb cable from the pc to the iusb3.0, regular cables carry "data" + "power" in one.
 
Dec 11, 2023 at 10:51 PM Post #638 of 663
from what i know, some devices even though they have an external power supply, they require the 5v from the cable to do the handshake with the pc.
that`s why i want to know before i buy the device.
Well, in that case there is only one person that has the answer to that and his name is @Thorsten Loesch

From my experience using it now paired with a micro iDSD Signature and a LaCie Mobile Drive V2 connected to my Android 11 phone is that I think it does draw some power from the phone as my battery decreases quite fast but not sure if it just a software problem/bug and this extra power it goes into the iusb is not needed. All in all, I am unable to change the usb settings for any usb device I connect to this phone so that's that.
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 3:04 AM Post #639 of 663
i asked someone that has the device and also a dual headed usb cable in his setup, to test by plugging in just the data wire.
it does not work with a data only cable, even though it has it`s own power supply, it needs the 5v power from the pc.
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 3:29 AM Post #640 of 663
i asked someone that has the device and also a dual headed usb cable in his setup, to test by plugging in just the data wire.
it does not work with a data only cable, even though it has it`s own power supply, it needs the 5v power from the pc.

You can self power the power side of the gemini cable from iUSB micro by looping the USB A output to USB B input

I have done this method and if you do not want to use the iPurifier function you can just use the iUSB 3.0 as a clean 5V source and plug in the data side straight to the DAC from source
 
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Dec 12, 2023 at 4:11 AM Post #641 of 663
You can self power the power side of the gemini cable from iUSB micro by looping the USB A output to USB B input

I have done this method and if you do not want to use the iPurifier function you can just use the iUSB 3.0 as a clean 5V source and plug in the data side straight to the DAC from source
interesting, thank you for the info.
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 5:22 AM Post #642 of 663
i need some clarification on something, does the iUSB3.0 work if you use a "data" only cable to connect it to the PC, or does it need both data+power ?

In "Auto" power setting it must have Host Power. This is not used except to turn the system on/off. In "On" setting the iUSB 3.0 is "always on".

However I do not recommend to use a cable with Vbus removed, it does not help. You need to disconnect the Ground, not Vbus (well, you need to disconnect Ground AND VVus actually) - to gain isolation.

If you have the iUSB micro, it has a switch that accomplishes that and can still run in "Auto" Mode.

1702376385498.png


It's the switch on the right. This, when flipped up is basically the same as "iDefender" which is sold as stand alone product. The iDefender is in effect this circuit plus some extra, broken out into a stand alone product, as opposed to integrating it into all iFi Products.

Thor
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 6:25 AM Post #643 of 663
In "Auto" power setting it must have Host Power. This is not used except to turn the system on/off. In "On" setting the iUSB 3.0 is "always on".

However I do not recommend to use a cable with Vbus removed, it does not help. You need to disconnect the Ground, not Vbus (well, you need to disconnect Ground AND VVus actually) - to gain isolation.

If you have the iUSB micro, it has a switch that accomplishes that and can still run in "Auto" Mode.

1702376385498.png

It's the switch on the right. This, when flipped up is basically the same as "iDefender" which is sold as stand alone product. The iDefender is in effect this circuit plus some extra, broken out into a stand alone product, as opposed to integrating it into all iFi Products.

Thor
@Thorsten Loesch as always thank you for detailed information. Wish it would all be available in the ifi documentation: either as part micro iUSB manual or tech notes on the the ifi site, not to mention that technical support should know all of this as well. When I've opened ticker for iGalvanic + iUSB setup not working they instead told me that my notebook docking station is broken.
 
Dec 12, 2023 at 7:18 AM Post #644 of 663
Wish it would all be available in the ifi documentation: either as part micro iUSB manual or tech notes on the the ifi site, not to mention that technical support should know all of this as well. When I've opened ticker for iGalvanic + iUSB setup not working they instead told me that my notebook docking station is broken.
Lol.

iFi for best customer support 2023 award.
 

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