[s1rrah]

  Joel,
 
Here are a few from a reliable vendor I think are good bets:
 
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/Tesla-E88CC-6922-Gold-Pin    $50
 
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/JAN-Sylvania-6DJ8    $40
 
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/JAN-Philips-6922-Low-Noise    $40
 
http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6922-E88CC-Tube-Types/JJ-E88CC-6922-Gold    $25
 
Phil

 
Perfect. Thanks ...
 
joel

 

[EricGC]

Thank you Phil. This is a great writeup.
 
I have a Pagoda SE, and tried 3 tubes you mentioned: Stock 5670, Bendix 2c51, and Tesla 6cc42. Results are just as you described: 5670 is OK (sometimes I feel it's no better than MBP onboard DAC), Bendix is better but too bright & lack detail, while Tesla works the best with Pagoda (much more detail & lifelike vocal & strings, love it).
 
So tubes do make big difference... Unfortunately I don't have many collections to try on.
 
A few questions for you:
 
1) Do you think upgrading to Bendix 6385 worth a try? Other than dynamics, any other improvement over Tesla 6cc42?
2) How do you compare top tubes with & without converter? For example, is there a gap between Bendix 6385 and Siemens CCa w/ converter?
 
Thanks!
EricGC

 

[213Cobra]

Eric,
 
There is a significant individual preferences factor here, so keep that in mind regarding what I write next, though given that your own impressions mapped well to what I wrote wrt those three tubes, you should have some confidence about this.
 
If you love the Tesla 6cc42, you will likely love the Bendix 6385 (1959-64 production) even more, for all the same reasons. The 6385 will be tonally richer by degrees (not a night/day change in that respect), spatially more expansive and dynamics will be palpably more contrasted and impactful. But the 6385 is scarce and expensive, though I would not have expected there's any further tube to try. It complements the Pagoda beautifully. I thought that's as good as it gets for these DACs.
 
I tried the tube converter on a lark. For my systems, running the CCa or CV2492 (e88cc/6922 family) via the converter socket is in all ways better than even the 6385. I will circle back this weekend with some extended listening to check myself on this, but every aspect of the sound presentation is elevated by CCA/CV2492 over 6385. That's not to say someone else might not prefer the 6385, if they like a less tonally vivid, lower-dynamic contrast presentation. But these tubes, while more plentiful than Bendix 6385, aren't much cheaper. The real question, which I will answer in the next few days, is whether even a middling NOS or new production 6922 is better than a 6385. So before you track down a 6385, let me see how a more average 6922 fares. In the meantime, you are near the pinnacle of what you can get out of a Pagoda through tube rolling the 5670 family running that Tesla 6cc42.
 
Phil

 

[EricGC]

Hi Phil,
 
Thanks for your reply. Now I almost got the whole picture
 
Inline with what you have experienced, CCa is one of the best 6922 tubes:
 
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/124247-differences-between-nos-tesla-e88cc.html
 
"At higher level amplifier (DAC output) 6N23P-EV good tube, better than ECG 6DJ8, stock 6922's, but not better than Tungsram E88CC (red print), or Tesla E88CC (yellow, sword). These tubes are million miles (for example) from NOS Telefunken E88CC, or Siemens CCa."
 
I'm curious how you think of Telefunken E88CC? It got lots of good reviews (58 vs 4 for CCa):
 
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/telefunken-e88cc-6922
 
Looking forward to your test results on middling 6922. I believe it will benefit every Pagoda owner in this forum.
 
Thanks again.
EricGC

 

[213Cobra]

Eric,
 
I have a lot of experience with CCA/Ecc88/E88cc/6922/cv2492/6dj8 types in excellent preamps over the past 40 years. The Telefunken e88cc is certainly a fully credible alternative to a Siemens or Siemens-Halske or Valvo CCa. The CCa was designed for very long life use in West German Postal sorting machinery. I have Tele e88cc in my tube inventory. The right sample of that tube is fully competitive with CCa, sonically. It may not last quite as long but plenty long in conventional terms, and might have a trace more noise. The Telefunken will tilt to a more organic, romantic, softer voicing. The Siemens will tilt to a more incisive, articulate sound that's a *little* less accommodating but slightly more objective.
 
I will trial these variants this weekend. Tele and Siemens e88cc, various CCa, some prosaic 6922 and a really ordinary modern production Edicron (Russian origin) that costs so little it's almost free. Let's see!
 
Phil

 

[sebassie]

  Thank you Phil. This is a great writeup.
 
I have a Pagoda SE, and tried 3 tubes you mentioned: Stock 5670, Bendix 2c51, and Tesla 6cc42. Results are just as you described: 5670 is OK (sometimes I feel it's no better than MBP onboard DAC), Bendix is better but too bright & lack detail, while Tesla works the best with Pagoda (much more detail & lifelike vocal & strings, love it).
 
So tubes do make big difference... Unfortunately I don't have many collections to try on.
 
A few questions for you:
 
1) Do you think upgrading to Bendix 6385 worth a try? Other than dynamics, any other improvement over Tesla 6cc42?
2) How do you compare top tubes with & without converter? For example, is there a gap between Bendix 6385 and Siemens CCa w/ converter?
 
Thanks!
EricGC

i experienced the same regarding tesla 6cc42 (i have the pinched waste version). it's my favourite for the pagoda (however i never had the chance to try the bendix). but i liked it more than we. will have a look at the converters. very interesting as i have a lot of e88cc (and equivalents).

 

[sebassie]

  Eric,
 
I have a lot of experience with CCA/Ecc88/E88cc/6922/cv2492/6dj8 types in excellent preamps over the past 40 years. The Telefunken e88cc is certainly a fully credible alternative to a Siemens or Siemens-Halske or Valvo CCa. The CCa was designed for very long life use in West German Postal sorting machinery. I have Tele e88cc in my tube inventory. The right sample of that tube is fully competitive with CCa, sonically. It may not last quite as long but plenty long in conventional terms, and might have a trace more noise. The Telefunken will tilt to a more organic, romantic, softer voicing. The Siemens will tilt to a more incisive, articulate sound that's a *little* less accommodating but slightly more objective.
 
I will trial these variants this weekend. Tele and Siemens e88cc, various CCa, some prosaic 6922 and a really ordinary modern production Edicron (Russian origin) that costs so little it's almost free. Let's see!
 
Phil

Phil,
 
Did you by any chance also tried Amperex/Philips E88CC types?
 
Seb

 

[213Cobra]

Seb,
 
I did check the Amp/Phi e88cc types but only briefly. They are very good but not equal to Siemens-Halske. I will include them in my weekend eval of middle-upper end 6922 family and report back.
 
Phil

 

[s1rrah]

 
1) Do you think upgrading to Bendix 6385 worth a try? Other than dynamics, any other improvement over Tesla 6cc42?
 

 
Just to chime in a bit here ...
 
Eric .. I think you would find the Bendix 6385 to be nearly identical in regards to sonics as the Bendix 2C51 ... *very* similar sounding tubes with perhaps even more air/clarity with the 6385 ... both Bendix tubes being absolutely phenomenal with the somewhat darker sounding Havana and Stockholm DACs (both of which I've owned in the past) ... but to my ear, a bit too sharp/thin when used with the more detailed, Pagoda DAC (which I currently own).
 
I personally have found the Western Electric "JW" branded WE396A tube to be phenomenal with the Pagoda as it's slightly "warmish" and layed back presentation to nicely compliment the PC1704 DAC (Pagoda) and this has been my Pagoda "go to" tube for a couple years now...
 
I'm looking forward to trying some of the  E88CC / 6922 tubes via the adapter mentioned by Phil.  

 

[213Cobra]

>>I think you would find the Bendix 6385 to be nearly identical in regards to sonics as the Bendix 2C51<<
 
I have to say, that is not altogether consistent with my experience. There are a lot of 2c51 tubes to try, and they vary from barely different from a 396a to the sharpened 2c51 sound usually referred to. In Havana Balanced, I'd say there is 60% overlap between a Bendix 2c51 and 6385 (1959 - 1964 production)  attributes. That overlap includes boosted definition compared to even the best 5670 tubes. But the 2c51 goes considerably further in pushing the transient detail-tonality balance in favor of detail than the 6385 and the 2c51 is dynamically more bombastic. This is enough so that in Havana Balanced, the Bendix 2c51 is my preference with PCM56j/k chips, but with the more objective and detailed AD1856 chips in that DAC, the 6385 is champ. To me, the differences between 2c51 and 6385 are by contrast larger in the mhdt 24/192 ladder DACs. What stands out for me regarding the 6385 over the 2c51 are upgraded tone density and soundstage spaciousness.
 
That said, I will include WE 396a in my tube comparisons this weekend. I hadn't bothered since it was too "old school" in the Havana Balanced, IMO. I have several variants. Overall, for me the differences between various 5670 tube types in Pagoa and Atlantis are dwarfed by the differences between NOS upper end 6922 types via converter, and any of the 5670 equivalents regardless what flavor of them you like.
 
Phil

 

[s1rrah]

That said, I will include WE 396a in my tube comparisons this weekend. I hadn't bothered since it was too "old school" in the Havana Balanced, IMO. I have several variants. Overall, for me the differences between various 5670 tube types in Pagoa and Atlantis are dwarfed by the differences between NOS upper end 6922 types via converter, and any of the 5670 equivalents regardless what flavor of them you like.
 
Phil

 
I love the WE396A in the Pagoda but found it a bit to "sluggish" for the Havana/Stockholm DACS ... regarding your listen ... if you can, find a "JW" branded WE396A then I encourage you to try this variant as these are the few that were specified as expressly for military grade usage ... I've owned both and found the JW to be a more refined listen ...
 
I listen only through headphones, BTW ... Grado PS1000's ... which are known not only for a slight mid bass hump but also for the typical (though the least IMO) Grado inclination towards slightly upticked high freqs ... and not sure if this has anything to do with my Bendix 2C51/6385 comparison but indeed I found it very difficult to distinguish between the two ... so much so that I sold the (super spendy!) 6385 in favor of keeping the 2C51l; I have neither now, however as they were specifically used in the Havana/Stockholm DACs ... just a bit sharp for the Pagoda and my particular headphones. I can imagine the assessment of tubes and gear in general to be a whole other animal when listening via a quality speaker set up. The differences in spatial performance and imaging are just staggering moving from headphones to speakers and so that might be a factor; I personally do not believe headphones of any sort can approximate the imaging of speakers ... some Stax I've owned try very hard but fall way short ... and my PS1000's, even more than the Stax I've owned, are even better ... but it's still very much an "inside your head" sort of listen when compared to a nice speaker setup.
 
Oh yeah ... re: tubes ... there is also a very hard to source but super cheap tube,  the AEG 5670... which I enjoy just as much as the Bendix variants and for the same reasons ... it's quite a surprising listen, actually when one considers the cost ... if your in the states, I'd be more than happy to mail you mine for a demo; I some times use it in the Pagoda but infrequently as I much prefer the WE396A ... just PM me and let me know ...
 
Best,
joel

 

[EricGC]

Phil, do you have Reflektor tube in your collection?
 
On searching 6922 tubes, I found this review giving "Reflektor Holy Grail '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields" very high rating, over CCA & CV2492:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes

 

[213Cobra]

Joel,
 
I do have the JW version of the 396a. Agree wrt headphones influencing evaluations. And on imaging, headphones have nothing really useful there unless you have a true binaural recording.
 
Eric,
 
I have had the Reflektor 6n23p silver shield in the past. I never agreed with that assessment of the Reflektor. It has not sounded better than the Siemens CCa in any circuit I heard it in, though it has some strong positive traits that can be useful in correcting certain flaws elsewhere in a system. Holistically, the CCa is the better audio tube, to me. I let my stash go with some gear I sold some time back, but I may have one or two around. I'll look and include it in my evaluation if I do.
 
Phil

 

[EricGC]

Thanks Phil! I bet you'll be pretty busy this weekend, please enjoy it
 
Looking forward for your list of "best tubes for Pagoda", maybe also a list of "best bang of buck tubes" as well, for those who can't afford CCA.

 

[ericr]

Has anyone checked with MHDT about using the 6922 / CCA tubes in their DACs?