[gimmeheadroom]

Without the last sentence I would have responded to that. You need to check your mirror once in a while.

<PLONK>

 

[bigshot]

Skhan007, we were discussing a certain type of poster earlier. It appears we have found another like that.

 

[skhan007]

Indeed. I suppose if I'm a new car driver and I like my first car, I shouldn't post that because I haven't driven or owned a lot of other cars. Making statements about my experiences is just a bad idea, I guess. If I test drove a bunch of cars and had opinions on those, it's a bad idea to post them.

This guy apparently is upset with some innocent postings of experiences. There was no ill will intended, but I got confronted. Perhaps there needs to be a "rules for new guys" sticky to not post their experiences, thoughts, or opinions. A lot of other guys were actually quite helpful and supportive on that RME thread. I just don't get it.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Indeed. I suppose if I'm a new car driver and I like my first car, I shouldn't post that because I haven't driven or owned a lot of other cars. Making statements about my experiences is just a bad idea, I guess. If I test drove a bunch of cars and had opinions on those, it's a bad idea to post them.

This guy apparently is upset with some innocent postings of experiences. There was no ill will intended, but I got confronted. Perhaps there needs to be a "rules for new guys" sticky to not post their experiences, thoughts, or opinions. A lot of other guys were actually quite helpful and supportive on that RME thread. I just don't get it.

Again (and again): You didn't say it sounded great to you. You said it drove all these 300 ohm headphones well. Those are completely different statements. Not sure why this is surprising or hard to understand. Do you really not get it? Yes, you said as much. You just don't get it.

The personal attacks don't solve the problem or change anything. But they are on-topic in sound science

 

[bigshot]

Skahn007, There is no absolute right or wrong answer. It all depends on your criteria for judging. If you are looking for accuracy far beyond your ears’ ability to hear, there is a right answer for that. If you are looking for the optimal sound quality for your individual ears, there may be another. If you’re on a limited budget, and you want bang for the buck, a different answer may be what you want. If compatibility and a simple user interface is what you want, there may be an even more different answer. It all depends on the priorities of your criteria. You defined your criteria clearly, and he either didn’t read what you’ve said in this thread, or he wants to ram his own criteria down our throats. Either way, there isn’t much useful there.

Some folks don’t understand that people have different priorities and try to act like a “scientist” and chase down theoretical rabbit holes that don’t mean a thing when it comes to listening to your favorite albums in your living room. I’m not convinced that an approach like that is useful to anyone.

However science has a purpose. It gives us tools for critical analysis so we can more accurately discern if something fits our criteria for judging. It’s perfectly possible to test subjective impressions. That is what the Harman Curve represents. And you can apply controlled testing to achieve that by eliminating bias and perceptual error.

It’s best to base decisions on real world facts, not just believing what “authorities” tell you, or trusting the consensus in Internet forums. If you make clear statements, define your criteria for judging, rely on facts, and remain open to being challenged by better facts that apply to your criteria, you should have no problem... except with those who are incapable of critical thinking.

 

[skhan007]

Again (and again): You didn't say it sounded great to you. You said it drove all these 300 ohm headphones well. Those are completely different statements. Not sure why this is surprising or hard to understand. Do you really not get it? Yes, you said as much. You just don't get it.

The personal attacks don't solve the problem or change anything. But they are on-topic in sound science

Ok, I’ll be open minded here and defer to your suggestion if it’s constructive. If I could go back in time and revise my experience buying my DAC, trying out headphones, and being happy with all these purchases, how could I worded my experience in such a way that it would have been acceptable? You have to understand, I’m not trying to declare that I know everything after a couple of days.

 

[bigshot]

There’s no pleasing some people. If someone acts in a non-constructive way, odds are they have nothing constructive to add. You’re allowed to ignore them. Give them a chance, and if they come out swinging, just blow them off and talk with other people. You don’t have to suffer fools gladly. That is rule #1 on the internet!

He was invited to tell us what was wrong with the combination and provide measurements to show the degree of error, and he refused. When he provides that, we’ll have something to discuss.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Ok, I’ll be open minded here and defer to your suggestion if it’s constructive. If I could go back in time and revise my experience buying my DAC, trying out headphones, and being happy with all these purchases, how could I worded my experience in such a way that it would have been acceptable? You have to understand, I’m not trying to declare that I know everything after a couple of days.

You picked great gear and I don't know you. All I'm saying is based on your comments that this is all new I think it would help other people a lot if you just post your opinions. Because I have seen a lot of posts where people spend big money and get very disappointed or post that known good cans like the HD 600 don't sound good at all. If we delve into that it's almost always because they're not amping them properly. I have read enough of @Monsterzero ZMF posts (I think he has spent time with almost every model) that the ones you bought really need a good amp to get the most out of them. And I know from my RME that my Sennheisers sound flat and unengaging out of the RME (on high power). When I run them off a Meier Corda Jazz-ff which costs about 500 euros (amp only) the magic begins again. They sound magic out of an el-cheapo Valhalla 2 with stock tubes. They sound magnificent out of a V280 running balanced to the point I don't know of anything with 5X the price that can beat them overall. They sound like crap out of the portable gear I have tried them with, flat, and lifeless. They sound bad out of a modern receiver. I have similar experiences with 250 ohm Beyers. So this tells me that major groups of high impedance cans need more voltage than the RME can deliver.

Evaluating any new gear is something that takes people a lot of time before the brain burns in. I'll bet you a beer you will eventually post that you tried several amps and found one that makes your ZMFs sound much better than the RME can

I know this is the "sound science" forum and they like to oversimplify everything to a measurement and they will show you mathematical proofs that the RME has enough voltage to damage your hearing with 300 ohm cans. But that is not the point. I have heard 250 and 300 ohm dynamics loud enough to catch on fire yet the musicality is not there; the sound is thin, the bass is weak, the mids are subdued. I can't explain it but I can correlate it to voltage. Meir Corda Jazz-ff, 15V... Interestingly, the ifi amp targeted at HD 6XX also swings 15V. This can't be random. There is empirical evidence that this is some kind of sweet spot (starting, anyway, since the V280 swings 60V). Until you hear your cans out of enough amp you will not know if they sound great or not. Everything is relative to something else.

 

[bigshot]

I still have no idea what kind and degree of degradation results from combining his cans and amp. But your tone has improved.

 

[skhan007]

Understood. Thank you for this information and perhaps we can reset the discussion. What I'm hearing in your post is that I might be hearing is some approximation of what the headphones are capable of delivering with the RME only. The RME can provide the measurable variables that on paper, exemplify adequate (or more than adequate according to Amir's review) driving of 300 Ohm headphones, but what I'm understanding from your post here is that sound quality is not optimized. I've actually been corresponding with a few different RME owners and while they can confirm their high impedance headphones can be functional (maybe that's a better word than drive or driven for these purposes?), some have stated there is staging, separation, etc. that happens with their dedicated amp. I referred to these as the intangibles when approaching the topic here on the Sound Science section.

An analogous example would be statistical significance vs. clinical significance. We can measure reduction in symptoms, for example in medical research, but that doesn't always mean improvement in quality of life (the intangible not measured by blood tests or other empirically validated measure). So, over the past few days, I've been reading, researching, and watching reviews. Some guys have recommended Burson Soloist X3 and the Singxer SA1, which are (so far) sounding like a good fit. From a tube amp perspective, other ZMF owners have told me to consider the Pendant (obviously, as a ZMF matched product, but it might be too large for my desktop), the Woo WA3 (OTL vs. transformer coupled, I'm told is a better match for high Z cans), and Liquid Platinum, which most guys seem to love. I've also learned, from the suggestion of others, that perhaps the magic that apparently occurs with some tube amps is potentially approximated by EQ in the RME. I'm absolutely open-minded and if I purchase one and it doesn't feel/sound any better to my ears, I'll simply sell. I'm leaning towards solid state at this juncture, which is odd considering how many tube guitar amps I own and have previously owned. I'm just not convinced nor certain about the external amp, so I'm continuing to gather my information.

 

[bigshot]

Electronics isn't magic. It's science. If you want to improve fidelity you do that with understanding the science behind how things work. If you want to get closer to a personal subjective goal, you do that by controlled listening tests- science again. If you want to wander around aimlessly and listen to the subjective impressions of people who don't really think in an organized manner or make any effort to eliminate bias and perceptual error from their listening, you're going to end up with random results and never solve your problem.

Brand names and model numbers are like football teams. One side says the XYZ 4000 is the best thing since sliced bread, one side says it's lousy. Who is right? Neither of them. The side that says it's good is self-validating their choice because they went out and bought the XYZ 4000, and the side that says it's lousy bought something different and they want to champion their choice by tearing the other guy's choice down. You see that all the time on internet forums... mac vs pc, one brand vs another, one design vs another. It has more to do with them and their feelings than it does the electronic component.

Amps and DACs and players and transducers are tools. They have purposes, and they are either effective or ineffective, depending on how you use them. The way to use them effectively is to understand how they work. You do the math to see if it works on paper. Then you sit down and listen to it carefully and analytically. You compare it in a controlled way against other similar components. If you do that, you have a good shot at making the best decision.

If you refer to the way two components plug together as being "magical", you cheerlead for one particular brand or model, and you reject controlled testing and a scientific approach to problem solving, you end up making a Mulligan Stew of conflicting data and random impressions depending on how good you felt that day or how much you spent on a piece of equipment. None of that has anything to do with how well the equipment actually works. It's all how you FEEL about the equipment. That is a massively inefficient way to make decisions.

The way to solve problems is to define the problem, experiment to discover the source of the problem, attempt to correct it, and then test in a controlled way to see if you've solved your problem. Rinse and repeat until you achieve success. But most audiophiles don't do that. The buy something, worry that maybe it isn't good enough, ask a bunch of people if there is something wrong with their choice, get a bunch of conflicting advice, and go out and buy something else that costs more in the hopes that a higher price tag will mean it sound better. You see people following this pattern on Head-Fi all the time, churning through equipment... listing a dozen or more different amps, DACs and headphones in their sigs... constantly selling something and buying something else. People like that are the worst people to ask for advice. They don't know what they need themselves, how can they help you find what works for you? You don't need ten different amps. You need one that fits your purpose.

Become an informed buyer. Define your own needs. Learn how it all works so you can choose what works for you. If it sounds good to you, it sounds good, no matter what people in internet forums say. Be happy with your choice and listen to music. That is what the real purpose of all this is after all.

The truth is that it is very easy to find incredibly good sounding equipment now. Digital audio is perfect sound. Amps are made to a very high standard in most cases. There's a range of headphones with different response characteristics to choose from. It isn't nearly as complicated as people make it out to be.

 

[ADUHF]

Interesting discussion.

I know this is the "sound science" forum and they like to oversimplify everything to a measurement and they will show you mathematical proofs that the RME has enough voltage to damage your hearing with 300 ohm cans. But that is not the point. I have heard 250 and 300 ohm dynamics loud enough to catch on fire yet the musicality is not there; the sound is thin, the bass is weak, the mids are subdued. I can't explain it but I can correlate it to voltage. Meir Corda Jazz-ff, 15V... Interestingly, the ifi amp targeted at HD 6XX also swings 15V. This can't be random. There is empirical evidence that this is some kind of sweet spot (starting, anyway, since the V280 swings 60V). Until you hear your cans out of enough amp you will not know if they sound great or not. Everything is relative to something else.

Maybe 15V is what the developer used for some of their testing when designing the headphones?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Interesting discussion.



Maybe 15V is what the developer used for some of their testing when designing the headphones?

I asked ifi here on the forums about it and I got the impression he also found it interesting. But I didn't hear back from them why they chose it.

I do know Jan Meier tests with Sennheisers and Beyers when he develops his amps so it seems this number is meaningful somehow.

I will get back to @skhan007 when I have time to answer you fully but I will do so in the RME thread

 

[ADUHF]

I asked ifi here on the forums about it and I got the impression he also found it interesting. But I didn't hear back from them why they chose it.

I do know Jan Meier tests with Sennheisers and Beyers when he develops his amps so it seems this number is meaningful somehow.

Thank you for the reply, gimmeheadroom.

So you think it has more to do with the amp being designed with a specific headphone or headphones in mind, rather than the other way around?

Or maybe the amp designers are trying to match the voltages used by the headphone developers?

 

[bigshot]

I’ll ask again... What effect are we talking about? Lack of sufficient volume? Distortion? Frequency response shifts?