[ChJL]

This was a quote from Martins expert friend. So I don’t know what DACs he is referring to.
I personally love my R26. End game by no means it bested my own Pontus 2 and the Venus2 I was auditioning.
I am ready for an upgrade and finally after long research feel I’ve found worthy upgrade with the features I’m looking for under $12k with the TEAC UD701n.
TEAC is the parent company of Esoteric and this Dac uses the same house made
Delta Sigma convertors.

Teac/Esoteric didn't see that when looking at them. They also sell a master clock, just saying...
Was trying to find phase noise measurements on it which I didn't find.
Although that this is a master clock thread there is unfortunately almost nothing on the TEAC clock or other brands models. Mostly LHY, Mutec a few AD owners (nothing about SotM, Cybershaft, Ideon, Soulnote, etc)
A lot about cables prior to the fundamental discussion triggered by OCK-2 measurement situation...
Cables right

 

[camrector]

And Teac also has a 50 ohms input for a clock, just like the R26.
Go figure why…

Because companies like to make profits and sell things. DCS, Esoteric, many companies make clocks.
Guaranteed those clocks have measurements and are impedance matched.

 

[MartinWT]

Digital audio is itself a measurement, so if this measurement did not include soundstage, then obviously no digital audio recording would ever have any soundstage. You’re not really claiming that are you?

I'm not claiming that at all, because digital audio is not a 'measurement' of what you hear.

What about the equipment's processing of the signal?

What about room interactions?

Sorry, it's not even close.

 

[JaMo]

Regarding the lack of measurements for the LHY OCK OCXO's I wrote to Jay's Audio the 29'th of April:

Me: Message: -Hello, I have very good experience with Your LHY OCK-1 and OCK-2 master clock generators and also the SW-8 switch. The lack of phase noise graphs for the clocks has started to work in a negative way for the LHY brand. The gears are good, no doubt but on forums LHY gets a bashing because of this. I am sorry but You could easily mend this/recover the reputation and confidence for the brand with a few representative measurements for the OCK-2, OCK-1 and maybe also for the SW-8 and SW-10. Thank You. Jan M

I got their answer a month later (28'th of May):

Hi Jan,

It's really great to hear from you, and I genuinely hope this message finds you in good spirits. My name is Weng Fai, and I am the Sales & Technical Manager here at Beatechnik. First and foremost, I want to extend my sincerest apologies for the delay in responding to your message. We truly value your time and understand that we should have been more prompt in addressing your concerns. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

I want to express my heartfelt gratitude for sharing your valuable feedback regarding the importance of measurements. Your insights are incredibly valuable to us as we strive to continually improve our products and services. We understand the significance of objective measurements and specifications in determining equipment performance, and we acknowledge that they provide customers like you with a valuable reference point.

However, I must inform you that at the moment, we do not conduct individual measurements or provide certificates for each OCK/SW unit we ship. This decision has been influenced by various factors, including the current price point of our products. We want to ensure that our offerings remain competitive and accessible to a wide range of customers. Conducting individual measurements for each unit would require significant resources, both in terms of specialized equipment and skilled personnel, which would inevitably increase the cost significantly.

That being said, I want to assure you that we have dedicated a tremendous amount of time and effort to fine-tune and extensively test the OCK against competitor Master Clocks rated at -105dBc/Hz to -118dBc/Hz. Our talented engineers have poured their expertise and passion into ensuring that the LHY Audio OCK delivers exceptional performance. We truly believe that it stands strong on its own merits, and we have full confidence in its abilities.

I wholeheartedly understand that sound perception is highly subjective, and what may sound incredible to one person may not resonate as strongly with another. That's why we put so much emphasis on customer feedback and real-world experiences. Your comments and insights are invaluable to us as we continue to refine and enhance our products.

Once again, I want to express my deepest gratitude for taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns with us. Your feedback serves as a constant reminder of the importance of our work and the responsibility we have towards our customers. If you have any further questions or need any assistance, please don't hesitate to reach out. We are here to help in any way we can.

Wishing you a truly wonderful day ahead!

Many thanks.

Best regard,
Weng F
-------

So there You have it. After all the fuzz I thought I should let You know what is said in this matter.
/J

 

[gimmeheadroom]

There is a human being in the loop. Music does not even exist without us. It is important to comprehend how we process sound to make progress with this topic. And that we stop relying on gurus who think they know it all.

The audioscientologists are measuring (kinda, but not very well) one piece of equipment. Hifi is not one piece of equipment, it's how all the gear in the chain interacts. There are so many "first day on the job" flaws in their approach, I dismissed it years ago. I don't spend time dealing with their junk science.

Yes one on each ends = double run

Don't do it buddy. Impedance hell for the source...

The insecurity is akin to a 16 year old practicing kung fu sparring when there are pretty girls around.

That should be the worst of our problems

For those who don't believe in clocks: you should create you own thread, this one is being derailed and is not so interesting anymore for the intended crowd.

This is a general problem here and on the 'net. In the MQA threads the bashers try to shout down the people who are on-topic. Same here. Just put them all in the ignore list as I did, then time on the forum is pleasant and productive again.

 

[MartinWT]

Btw I'm loving how good my OCK2 master clock is sounding on my system. Cheers to everyone that owns one.

...and I'm loving my two AfterDark clocks and what they do for the music. More detail, more impact, bigger soundstage, better note decay, more vibrant.

Best of all, I can almost enjoy this thread again by using the ignore function.

 

[gregorio]

Recording is done by the sound engineers, but they are not the decision makers.

That very depends on the workflow although typically the recording engineers are the decision makers: Array type, mic choice, placement, etc. During the editing and mixing it would typically be the decision of the producer. During mastering the decisions would be entirely made by the mastering engineer, although the end result would need approval by the producer and/or record label. In NO case would any of the decisions be taken “By engineers who design electronic products”!

And in such huge productions, you say that there are no clocks?

In the audio world, typical orchestral music recordings are not “huge productions”. Regardless, there can never be “no clocks” and I certainly did not “say that”! The question (that’s been well and truly answered for many years) is whether converter performance is improved by using an external clock or is better with it’s own internal clock.

Let me tell you that there's a master clock that synchronizes all the gear in such cases.

Why would I “let you tell me” a falsehood? Sure there is always a master clock but typically that would be the converter’s built-in internal clock, NOT and external clock! In the case of more than one converter, the internal clock of the first converter would be output to the second one. In the case of synchronisation with video an external (separate) master clock is required. In setups with several converters and other digital equipment in the chain a master clock will improve performance, although such setups are almost non-existent these days. Outside of these scenarios an external master clock will NOT improve converter performance, it will either degrade performance or make no difference.

And of course, these scenarios are not applicable to consumers, you’re not running a chain of DACs at the same time are you?

Here’s objective, reliable evidence of converter performance using internal built-in vs an external clock. A range of converters and external clocks were tested. Quote: “Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system.”

It syncs even the Ethernet switches with the gear.

No, this is NEVER the case! It obviously cannot be the case because ethernet runs at a completely different rate to audio and therefore requires a different clock rate/signal. Audio requires a clock rate of 44.1kHz, 48kHz or multiples thereof, while 1 Gigabit ethernet for example has a signal frequency of 125MHz or several hundred MegaHertz for higher rates.

G

 

[ray12345]

You can have “Good” distortion called harmonic distortion.
“ Originating as a side effect of analog tape and certain circuit types, this flavor of distortion alters a signal by introducing additional overtones, and frequency content occurring in harmonic multiples of the fundamental. The result is changes in timbre that we often describe endearingly as “warmth,” “holographic,” “brightness,” “larger soundstage,” and “saturation.”

Sorry a bad attempt to answer the question. If it is distortion, it would have been applied randomly with each system and not have consistent result. With a clock, I am able to produce soundstage size and imaging same as (or rather similar) to what I hear on other much more expensive and high end DACs with my X26 Pro. This is a consistent result, and thus what I reckon a 'correct' result of the various reference recordings I listen to. I agree distortions can have pleasant results, but not consistent among various systems, you can't have consistent distortions.

 

[AxelCloris]

Folks, we've received a number of reports about posts going off topic, arguing, and getting personal at times in the back and forth here in the thread. Please keep posts related to the original topic started many years ago by the OP, and within our Posting Guidelines. Thanks everyone.

As a general reminder, the ignore function of the site is always available.

 

[camrector]

FMCs would clean up a dirty Ethernet network, so maybe yours is pretty clean from the get go and/or is a fiber network already.
I don’t have a $4k power conditioner but I do have a $2000 one (Puritan 156) as well as 2 dedicated lines with VH audio cryo treated 12/2 romex, complete new ground system with new 8ft rods, and cyro treated Oyaide outlets.
I noticed no change either with the OCK 2 and very minimal change with the Gustard c18 and the Mutec ref10
Again not saying those don’t make any changes. With my system the coloration was noticeable, due to intermodulation and 2nd order harmonic distortion, and simply not worth the cost.

 

[mgsu]

FMCs would clean up a dirty Ethernet network, so maybe yours is pretty clean from the get go and/or is a fiber network already.
I don’t have a $4k power conditioner but I do have a $2000 one (Puritan 156) as well as 2 dedicated lines with VH audio cryo treated 12/2 romex, complete new ground system with new 8ft rods, and cyro treated Oyaide outlets.
I noticed no change either with the OCK 2 and very minimal change with the Gustard c18 and the Mutec ref10
Again not saying those don’t make any changes. With my system the coloration was noticeable, due to intermodulation and 2nd order harmonic distortion, and simply not worth the cost.

I think the maximum benefit using a clock in a sound system would be when using the clock in conjunction with a DDC over i2s or optical into the DAC. Since i dont have a DDC who can take 10Mhz signal i dont see any benefits in my system by using the 10Mhz clock with the R26 DAC.
R26 DAC by itself with good power conditioner is good enough, no clock needed imo.

If i find time i will try the clock+DAC with out power conditioning to see if there is an argument for the clock.

Edit: my network consists of a SOTM switch. But i tried FMC to go optical into SOTM since the switch has two SFP ports. This method didn't do anything to SQ.

Edit2: speaking of DDC with 10Mhz input: there are no good enough DDC on the market rn, maybe DI20HE is the only contender but not compatible with R26 I2s (would work only with toslink and AES/EBU 192Khz). SU2 is noisy without mods, Holo Red has no clock input, SU6 is good but has only World Clock input.

 

[sajunky]

R26 DAC by itself with good power conditioner is good enough, no clock needed imo.

It could be a case, as internal clock synthesiser in R26 present strange behaviour in tests. It looks like a poor design, having a wide lobe and lot of spikes on the lobe. Not typical, even a reviewer pointed that.

 

[Zaurux]

To be honest, I wasn't looking to take part in this discussion, as I don't really know anything about the subject.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to use the AI now built into my Opera browser.
I was surprised by the response.

My question:
Based on the quality of the music perceived in a hifi system with a dac with an external clock at 10Mhz, is it better to choose a sinusoidal or square signal for this clock.

IA :

In general, to obtain optimum sound quality in a Hi-Fi system, it is preferable to use a sinusoidal signal for the external clock of a DAC. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. Square signals produce harmonics that can interfere with the audio signal, resulting in sound distortion. Sinusoidal signals have fewer harmonics and therefore less distortion.

2. Square wave signals can also generate noise in digital circuits, which can also affect sound quality. Sine signals have a lower noise level.

3. Square signals have abrupt transitions between high and low levels, which can cause synchronisation problems in digital circuits. Sinusoidal signals have smoother transitions, allowing more accurate synchronisation.

In summary, to obtain optimum sound quality in a Hi-Fi system with a DAC and an external clock, it is preferable to use a sine wave signal rather than a square wave signal.

 

[cglin222]

Hi all,

So.. After the success with the new LHY Ock-1 that should be the replacement for my Oscillquartz (-90dBc/1Hz) in my smaller TV/music-head phone rig. The Ock-1 was much better than my expectations. I paid USD350 with a discount on Aliexpress for the Ock-1 and it is crazy cheap for a OCXO with a phase noise of <-110dBc/1Hz. Three outputs (two with sine wave and one with square wave) is fine for most and the Ock-1 will bring many music lovers, a high quality sound.

One thing leads to another for me. The LHY Ock-2 was newly announced and based on the surprisingly happy result with the Ock-1's with its relatively simple design and still with this performance, I just couldn't hold myself back from ordering the LHY Ock-2 from https://www.beatechnik.com/.. The Ock-2 has a more sophistcated PSU and the OCXO is said to have a phase noise of <-115dBc/1Hz. USD749 is a very attractive price for an OCXO on this level.

Today the doorbell rang and there was a Fedex lady with a box from Singapore. The Ock-2 was ice cold when it arrived so I let it rest to take the room temperature before I powered it up. I also took a few pictures of "its guts".

I have just put it to work/burn in and it is now providing its time pulse to the Gustard U18 (DDC) + R26 (R2R dac) (square wave on both)

I will compare this Ock-2 to the Ock-1 and to my "precious" Mutec REF10 SE120

To be continued....
/Jan

How do we know it's 115db for the ock2? I asked them, but they said it was undisclosed... so did some one actually measured it? Thanks
Thinking about it, but if that's true, it really a good value at the price. Thanks

 

[camrector]

How do we know it's 115db for the ock2? I asked them, but they said it was undisclosed... so did some one actually measured it? Thanks
Thinking about it, but if that's true, it really a good value at the price. Thanks

It’s not 115dB. They lied. LHY removed the measurements when a 3rd party tested and proved they were false.