[camrector]

Nothng new under the sun. People are not all blessed with superior hearing. We are a minority. I have only a few in my circle. Most of those that can't hear are happy with spectacular home theater setups or crappy one-box solutions. But some will still want to follow the audiophile crowd, and will have to rely on "science" because their ears are untrustworthy. So as a consequence, marketing was put in place to extract a max of money out of these audiophile wannabes.

With good propaganda, you can convince people of anything. Except free thinkers, people who can hear and who do not like to be told what they hear or do not hear.

Or some people like intermodulation distortion and 2nd order harmonics and some don’t.
With marketing you can convince people of “Chinese secrets”. With science you can uncover those secrets.

This is your argument:
“I love this instrument! It sounds great!”
Me- “Awesome it’s called a guitar. I don’t like them.
You-“ It’s not a guitar!!! How dare you call it that!!! You obviously can’t hear what I’m hearing!!!

 

[FredA]

Speaking of speakers cabinet inertia, my Osborn Eclipses (non reference version) are not perfect. I got the Totem Beaks yesterday. In a highly tuned setup like mine, with these speakers, the Beaks seem to work. Same sort of top end enhancement a clock brings.

Master clocks are sort of a finishing touch. They will only work in a very good setup.

 

[gregorio]

The sound engineers are not relevant for us.

Really, what are you listening to on your system, wasn’t it created by engineers?

Their job is to produce sound. Our hobby is to consume it at a high level of quality that they don't have at their facilities.

You’re not really suggesting that commercial studios with millions or tens of millions worth of audio equipment and acoustic design and treatment have systems that are inferior to hobbyists?

They don't use them for the same purpose.

What purpose do you think we use them for?

G

 

[sajunky]

If we don’t know how to measure it, how do you know it’s between 0.1 and 1% or indeed more typically <0.01%? Obviously we must be able to measure it, unless you’re saying someone just guesses these figures?

These levels are measured very well with AP555, but for measuring clocks jitter, you need much more expensive equipment, not many can afford.

 

[FredA]

Or some people like intermodulation distortion and 2nd order harmonics and some don’t.
With marketing you can convince people of “Chinese secrets”. With science you can uncover those secrets.

This is your argument:
“I love this instrument! It sounds great!”
Me- “Awesome it’s called a guitar. I don’t like them.
You-“ It’s not a guitar!!! How dare you call it that!!! You obviously can’t hear what I’m hearing!!!

It is a possibility that some harmonics get lost in the recording/production process. It would explain why adding back such distorsion enhances sound quality. But as for clocks, external or internal, that is not what they bring.

The Doppler effect, if we generalize the concept to include position changes, will cause phase errors. Strictly speaking, it is not the Doppler effect, you are right. It does not change the validity of my argument.

 

[camrector]

I'm involved in production of soundtracks for four decades. I don't care which clocks are used in the studios. The studios are a place for sound production. My own audio system is for sound consumption at a high level of quality.
This morning, a composer, and an artist, came to my home, and we listened together to the mixing tests of his new album. Though he listened to his work with my clocks, he did not complain about distortion. On the contrary, he was impressed by the sound quality, and said that it surpasses the one of the professional studio in which he works on his album at this moment. He said that it was the first time that he hears his work so well.
This is the only point that is important for an audiophile.

You can have “Good” distortion called harmonic distortion.
“ Originating as a side effect of analog tape and certain circuit types, this flavor of distortion alters a signal by introducing additional overtones, and frequency content occurring in harmonic multiples of the fundamental. The result is changes in timbre that we often describe endearingly as “warmth,” “holographic,” “brightness,” “larger soundstage,” and “saturation.”

A sine wave with harmonic distortion applied—this could take on many different shapes and sounds depending on the intensity, the order of the harmonics (the multiple at which they occur), etc.
This is the key difference between clipping and harmonic distortion—while clipping indiscriminately hacks away at anything that exceeds an amplitude level, harmonic distortion adds frequency content in a way that’s musically meaningful.”
Nelson Pass

 

[gregorio]

These levels are measured very well with AP555 …

So we can measure it very well then (with say an AP 555) and so your assertion that “They don't know how to measure it.” was incorrect.

but for measuring clocks jitter, you need much more expensive equipment, not many can afford.

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself, how do you know you need much more expensive equipment if we don’t know how to measure it?

It is a possibility that some harmonics get lost in the recording/production process. It would explain why adding back such distorsion enhances sound quality.

It is a possibility that some harmonics get lost in the recording process, not due to the digital recording process but due to microphone response. However, the engineers/producer would add this back in if required or leave it out if preferred. If your system then adds more, you may or may not personally prefer the result but it would not be higher fidelity.

G

 

[gregorio]

The Doppler effect, if we generalize the concept to include position changes, will cause phase errors.

What position changes? Your DAC isn’t moving position while you’re listening and neither are your amp or speakers. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?

G

 

[FredA]

So we can measure it very well then (with say an AP 555) and so your assertion that “They don't know how to measure it.” was incorrect.

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself, how do you know you need much more expensive equipment if we don’t know how to measure it?

It is a possibility that some harmonics get lost in the recording process, not the digital recording process but due to microphone response. However, the engineers/producer would add this back in if required or leave it out if preferred. If your system then adds more, you may or may not personally prefer the result but it would not be higher fidelity.

G

Yeah. But in the end, musical enjoyment is what it is all about. There are no standardized metrics for this. Each person has its own ear signature and so on. Some things that bring such enjoyment can't be measured. Harmonic distorsion is one measurement that is so often misused.

People who think that a system can be judged uniquely based on measurements are plain naive or do not have excellent hearing. It is a very narrow-minded way of seeing things. As @sajunky pointed out, sound recognition at the brain level utilizes sound features that can't necessarily be measured at the moment. There is a human being in the loop. Music does not even exist without us. It is important to comprehend how we process sound to make progress with this topic. And that we stop relying on gurus who think they know it all.

 

[FredA]

What position changes? Your DAC isn’t moving position while you’re listening and neither are your amp or speakers. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?

G

The speaker front panel, where the drivers lay. It has to be perfectly still, but is in not practice. This will cause phase and frequency errors like an imperfect clock will.

 

[OCC7N]

Just got home from a listening session.

Double run with sine wave 50Ohm….


Holy moly Im ordering some of these in 75Ohm.

Unexplainable life-like experience

 

[FredA]

Just got home from a listening session.

Double run with sine wave 50Ohm….


Holy moly Im ordering some of these in 75Ohm.

Unexplainable life-like experience

What's this? A 50-ohm splitter?

 

[gregorio]

But in the end, musical enjoyment is what it is all about. There are no standardized metrics for this.

We’re not trying to measure musical enjoyment, neither an external clock, a DAC, an amp or speakers have any musical enjoyment that’s a purely human thing. In fact a DAC doesn’t even know it’s converting music, let alone enjoying it. What we’re measuring is the performance of the DAC and there are metrics for this, fidelity being the obvious one.

Each person has its own ear signature and so on.

But a DAC doesn’t have ears or ear signatures, so obviously we don’t measure ear signatures when measuring DACs.

Some things that bring such enjoyment can't be measured.

There are many things that can affect a listeners enjoyment, some of them don’t have anything to do with audio performance and we obviously don’t measure those.

People who think that a system can be judged uniquely based on measurements are plain naive or do not have excellent hearing.

Again, digital audio is just a series of measurements, so how can you judge a digital audio system on anything other than measurements?

The speaker front panel, where the drivers lay. It has to be perfectly still, but is in not practice.

Unless the front panel is broken and moving so much the driver can’t function properly, then the phase/frequency will not be affected to audible levels.

This will cause phase and frequency error like an imperfect clocks will.

An imperfect clock does not cause phase error, it can produce noise/distortion but even cheap DACs in the 1990’s did not have clocks so imperfect as to cause audible levels of noise/distortion. At what level do you listen to music? I presume with HPs it would be around 70dBSPL, maybe 80dB?

G

 

[FredA]

We’re not trying to measure musical enjoyment, neither an external clock, a DAC, an amp or speakers have any musical enjoyment that’s a purely human thing. In fact a DAC doesn’t even know it’s converting music, let alone enjoying it. What we’re measuring is the performance of the DAC and there are metrics for this, fidelity being the obvious one.

But a DAC doesn’t have ears or ear signatures, so obviously we don’t measure ear signatures when measuring DACs.

There are many things that can affect a listeners enjoyment, some of them don’t have anything to do with audio performance and we obviously don’t measure those.

Again, digital audio is just a series of measurements, so how can you judge a digital audio system on anything other than measurements?

Unless the front panel is broken and moving so much the driver can’t function properly, then the phase/frequency will not be affected to audible levels.

An imperfect clock does not cause phase error, it can produce noise/distortion but even cheap DACs in the 1990’s did not have clocks so imperfect as to cause audible levels of noise/distortion. At what level do you listen to music? I presume with HPs it would be around 70dBSPL, maybe 80dB?

G

Somewhere in between.

My whole point here is that measuring a dac tells only a part of the story. Measurements are missing.

Phase distorsion if you want.

Some measurement could be subjective and made by humans, on 1 to 10 scale.

1. Timbre accuracy
2. Cymbals reproduction
3. Spatiality (depth, width, localisation, height)
4. Bass definition and extension

The proof has been made that certain dacs with perfect measurements sound like crap. Now let's get serious and move ahead.

 

[OCC7N]

What's this? A 50-ohm splitter?

Yes one on each ends = double run