Master Clock Talk

[OCC7N]

Yes, HE-9LE is a giant price killer, similar to the R-8MK2 in a DAC's department. Better value than Master 9.

Did you compare both amps on AES/EBU or HE-9LE on ACSS? Even inexpensive ACSS cable sounds better than $2k XLR cable. Big saving in this regard.

[Edit] YES, reading again, it was ACSS.

I really think that R7 and R8 even without HE/REG is the way to go because of my experience with H9-LE(NON REG VERSION)

 

[ChJL]

What are you considering?

I'm considering instead of adding two devices plus three cables to the existing third device = DAC to swap out the dac and have just that one thing... I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.

I am sorry, You will not get a $$$$ rig for $$ money spent.

I'm not looking for a cheaper solution. Mentioned May is more than DAC+DDC+clock+ a bunch of cables.
I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.

 

[OCC7N]

I'm considering instead of adding two devices plus three cables to the existing third device = DAC to swap out the dac and have just that one thing... I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.



I'm not looking for a cheaper solution. Mentioned May is more than DAC+DDC+clock+ a bunch of cables.
I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.

…Bruno(Tambaqui) might know his stuff, but I will never in my life buy a dac at that price unless I was rich….I have not listened to his dacs, but class D modules yeah!! A comes first, enough said!…

…truly no offense

 

[FredA]

I'm considering instead of adding two devices plus three cables to the existing third device = DAC to swap out the dac and have just that one thing... I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.



I'm not looking for a cheaper solution. Mentioned May is more than DAC+DDC+clock+ a bunch of cables.
I can't see why no one suggests a superior DAC to an assembly of add ons.

The r7he mkii is one of the best dacs out there under the price of car. Get the he7 mkii if you want a more organic sound and do not care about dsd. There are other great choices. Read the Stereophile review, this will give you an idea of the sound.

As for a superior dac, the one box solution, the very best out there accepts external clock signal. No shame about it. Synching the streamer, ethernet switch, and dac with a common clock has shown to bring improvements to sound. Even feeding the dac only (in fact, this gives the biggest upgrade).

Some dacs have integrated streamers. This is an additional source of noise so keeping it external can lead to better results. There are many approaches, i don't deny this, but all in all, it is much about noise: managing it at the source, reducing it inside the component, and trying to avoid cross-contamination between circuits.

The rational behind an external clock is that clocks require ultra-low noise to perform optimally. So having it in a separate box with its own dedicated and customized psu makes much sense, especially at the perf level of an ocxo. And the multiple output allow synchonization of the gears.

 

[dougms3]

In fact, without a teminating load, the outout signal will bounce back. The ideal termination is thus a plug with the proper impedance acting as an rfi barrier at the same time. With indépendent outs properly designed, the potential gain is likely small. Depending on how large rfi can be of course. Also, the power draw is typically very small ( under 60mW) so not a factor.

If outputs are all active and you have 5 cables hanging off it not connected to anything, its basically making an extension cord and adding more surface area to pick up emi, like an antenna.

On the denafrips ares ii and the audio-gd r8mk2, both outputs are active simultaneous, so if you plug in an rca with a center pin, it severely degrades the audio signal. I checked.

With the master clock, if all the clock signal outputs are all active simultaneously , using a cap with a center pin will create a bridge between the terminations.

On my audio-gd master19, the inputs are independently switched, there is no difference between having the center pin there or removed on the dustcap, indicating its not active

 

[FredA]

If outputs are all active and you have 5 cables hanging off it not connected to anything, its basically making an extension cord and adding more surface area to pick up emi, like an antenna.

On the denafrips ares ii and the audio-gd r8mk2, both outputs are active simultaneous, so if you plug in an rca with a center pin, it severely degrades the audio signal. I checked.

With the master clock, if all the clock signal outputs are all active simultaneously , using a cap with a center pin will create a bridge between the terminations.

On my audio-gd master19, the inputs are independently switched, there is no difference between having the center pin there or removed on the dustcap, indicating its not active

It relates to the theory of transmission lines, which is part of Electric Engineering. It deals with transmitting high-frequencies, which is a whole different ball game than analog audio signals.

 

[dougms3]

It relates to the theory of transmission lines, which is part of Electric Engineering. It deals with transmitting high-frequencies, which is a whole different ball game than analog audio signals.

Well I think it would be alot worse to have additional dummy cables attached to the master clock.

The higher quality the cable, the better antenna it would probably make. Wouldn't it be plausible to assume that if you have a long wire with a high purity, silver/copper/aluminum jacket, its going to be quite an effective antenna and pick up and transfer more noise than a cheap one no? At least at the radio frequencies.

But hey I could be wrong, I haven't tested it. Just conjecture on my part.

 

[FredA]

Well I think it would be alot worse to have additional dummy cables attached to the master clock.

The higher quality the cable, the better antenna it would probably make. Wouldn't it be plausible to assume that if you have a long wire with a high purity, silver/copper/aluminum jacket, its going to be quite an effective antenna and pick up and transfer more noise than a cheap one no? At least at the radio frequencies.

But hey I could be wrong, I haven't tested it. Just conjecture on my part.

Just talk about a cap with the proper load.

Like this

https://canada.newark.com/multicomp...-PMAX-Shopping-High-ROAS-New&gross_price=true

 

[dougms3]

Just talk about a cap with the proper load.

Like this

https://canada.newark.com/multicomp...-PMAX-Shopping-High-ROAS-New&gross_price=true

But without anything connected to it wouldn't it also act like ball at the end of an antenna? Maybe even more so since its connected to clock output?

 

[FredA]

But without anything connected to it wouldn't it also act like ball at the end of an antenna? Maybe even more so since its connected to clock output?

I am not an expert so i can't say for sure. I suppose the overall length protroding would be only catching very high freq, passed 10ghz. With 5g being deployed, this could be an issue. But the bottom line is to determine what is worse. Any antenna experts?

Without a cap, a dipole is exposed, which is different...

 

[dougms3]

I am not an expert so i can't say for sure. I suppose the overall length protroding would be only catching very high freq, passed 10ghz. With 5g being deployed, this could be an issue. But the bottom line is to determine what is worse. Any antenna experts?

Without a cap, a dipole is exposed, which is different...

Granted the radio frequencies are much higher and out of range of the human audible FR but who knows what other frequencies it picks up and how much noise if any and how it affects the system with open ended cables attached to it. I dont know for sure either but just going on whats possible, there are alot more negatives than positives without testing it.

Point is that even though the frequencies it picks up are not in the audible range, anything in the audio signal thats not supposed to be there is noise.

The caps would do the opposite of the open ended cable. If the output is active, a dustcap without a pin would just reinforce the ground and minimize the bare output from picking up emi. If you plug in a dustcap with a center pin, which is the positive connection of the cable, its creating a bridge for direct contact for positive and negative, which I cant see doing anything but harm.

 

[sajunky]

I am not an expert so i can't say for sure. I suppose the overall length protroding would be only catching very high freq, passed 10ghz. With 5g being deployed, this could be an issue. But the bottom line is to determine what is worse. Any antenna experts?

Without a cap, a dipole is exposed, which is different...

Still the same no-pin cap dilemma?

On the unused ports close a hole in a shield with no-pin cap if you afraid 5G. The best option. It doesn't harm, as internal cable shield is grounded properly on both sides, so any antenna effect of a floating centre wire is surpressed. Or leave port open, a hole in a BNC connector is relatively small.

Terminating cap create current flow. It is why I talk about two edged sword. Any non zero resistance on the ground connection (internal cable shield or a ground plane) create a difference of electric potential, it affect switching time (jitter), it also create internal EMI. Designers deal with this issue using four and even six layers PCB, also by increasing copper thickness of the ground plane(s). Integrating connectors on the PCB eliminate imperfect termination of a cable shield.

Don't use a port, kill switching on this port. It is why designers take an additional effort to disable unused ports or group of ports. It is done at the source of a core logic.

 

[JaMo]

Still the same no-pin cap dilemma?

On the unused ports close a hole in a shield with no-pin cap if you afraid 5G. The best option. It doesn't harm, as internal cable shield is grounded properly on both sides, so any antenna effect of a floating centre wire is surpressed. Or leave port open, a hole in a BNC connector is relatively small.

Terminating cap create current flow. It is why I talk about two edged sword. Any non zero resistance on the ground connection (internal cable shield or a ground plane) create a difference of electric potential, it affect switching time (jitter), it also create internal EMI. Designers deal with this issue using four and even six layers PCB, also by increasing copper thickness of the ground plane(s). Integrating connectors on the PCB eliminate imperfect termination of a cable shield.

Don't use a port, kill switching on this port. It is why designers take an additional effort to disable unused ports or group of ports. It is done at the source of a core logic.

So...?

I have been working for about 20 years with, and are now consulting in the field of protecting and shielding of critical systems (hardware, software, cabeling..). Filters and tuned wave traps are the only legit way to get through the shieldsurfaces. The rooms/cabinnettes we are building has a damping of -140dB up the 12Ghz.

When a master clock design have activity on all ports as with the LHY OCK-1 and -2, You don't want to shortcut the outputs without having full knowledge about how the buffers are designed. The impedance resistors works as "bleeders" to GND so a blind caps (no pin) does the job with excellence to close the shield and protect from unwanted radio interference, polluting the performance. Where I come from.. The BNC chassi connector is an antenna. It is an open wound if You like. If You have the gear to sweep/measure Your envirolement, You should probably be surprised of how much "radio smog" there is around us ...and around the BNC-connectors...

/J

 

[FredA]

So...?

I have been working for about 20 years with, and are now consulting in the field of protecting and shielding of critical systems (hardware, software, cabeling..). Filters and tuned wave traps are the only legit way to get through the shieldsurfaces. The rooms/cabinnettes we are building has a damping of -140dB up the 12Ghz.

When a master clock design have activity on all ports as with the LHY OCK-1 and -2, You don't want to shortcut the outputs without having full knowledge about how the buffers are designed. The impedance resistors works as "bleeders" to GND so a blind caps (no pin) does the job with excellence to close the shield and protect from unwanted radio interference, polluting the performance. Where I come from.. The BNC chassi connector is an antenna. It is an open wound if You like. If You have the gear to sweep/measure Your envirolement, You should probably be surprised of how much "radio smog" there is around us ...and around the BNC-connectors...

/J

Norhing against the cap. But i am afraid it can pick up noise (beyond 10 mhz) and contaminate neutral. A cap that is not contacting electrically could be even better maybe.

As you imply, having the unused signal bouncing back is not a big issue since the it's a 10mhz signal which is bouncing back.. And there is isolation between the outs which should be effective for this freq and many harmonics. With short traces, the return comes back pretty much in phase anyway.

So using a cap, neutral noise is the concern, i guess, assuming neutral is shared cause the outs are single-ended. The cap probably block a lot of noise but not what is beyond 10mhz, if contacting.

Like anything in audio, the listening test is what matters.

I apply a grounding tube in my setup on the only unused clock out. Seems to improve the sound.

[edit] on a bnc, ground is distinct from neutral, and the outer part is ground. I assume it was neutral. So a dust cap will be contact with the chassis and provide excellent shielding from radiation for the inner part carrying the signal.

 

[FredA]

Speaking of grounding, i have two small grounding boxes coming in today!