Master Clock Talk

[OCC7N]

@roderickvd Given a short signal path (a few cm) the effect of the standing wave should be much smaller than in the video. In my master-clock, there is 10-15cm, so well worh a try. Or is it the opposite??

You bought with pin?

 

[FredA]

This article covers the basics. My understanding is that the energy will be absorbed by the output resistor mimicking the source as 50/75-ohm (right passed the output transistor) . The voltage should overshoot, from what i get. That is if the line to the connector has 50/75-ohm impedance. If not, i don't know what happen (nothing good for sure). Not much happens if the path is really short going to the connector, i suppose.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_of_signals_on_conducting_lines

 

[FredA]

You bought with pin?

On a clock like the afterdark trifecta, if you have usused outputs, these are worth a try. They are dummer 50/75 ohm loads. What i just ordered.

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005004794614277.html

 

[Exocer]

I got a chance to hear the AD Queen vs Eva today (Eva is brand new) on an Etherregen. The Eva being only a few days old took the lead in terms of separation, clarity, and decay. The impact is undeniable. Now I want one in my own system , but that will never happen. Unfortunately my OCK-1 is away at the moment. I will bring it with me next time for comparison.

 

[FredA]

I got a chance to hear the AD Queen vs Eva today (Eva is brand new) on an Etherregen. The Eva being only a few days old took the lead in terms of separation, clarity, and decay. The impact is undeniable. Now I want one in my own system , but that will never happen. Unfortunately my OCK-1 is away at the moment. I will bring it with me next time for comparison.

I have one. It replaced a Morion and took about 1 day max to beat it. Maybe two. It was 18 months ago so not sure.just get the ock2. Should be not so far off.

 

[Exocer]

I have one. It replaced a Morion and took about 1 day max to beat it. Maybe two. It was 18 months ago so not sure.just get the ock2. Should be not so far off.

That is incredibly awesome to hear. Plus, this also saves a ton of money on power supplies (I go all out on power).

Cheers!
-Rob

 

[sajunky]

Signals sent down an unterminated path cause standing waves and so, reflections. This is always so, not just in the case of inductive elements tuning anything. The question is not whether it happens, but whether it’s in fact a problem.

Refering to pseudo-science doesn't help in discussion, but it demonstrate disrespect. It doesn't promise well.

Then presenting example of a good science that is completely unrelated to the quoted text is indicative of either misunderstanding a content you are quoting or a deliberate redirection of the main point (which would be consistent with demonstrated disrespect).

Now, how we can continue....

First, show me a place where I negated a requirement for proper termination of the transmission line in a scenario when I want to 'consume' this signal. Then you can come back with your teaching, but it will be off-topic, as problem is different.

Secondly, give me a reason why I should terminate a line for a signal I don't want to 'consume'. I use a word 'consume' intentionally as everyone is consuming useful things and discard unuseful things. So you should be better familiar with...

I gave an extreme example that doesn't apply in this case, it was given for ilustration only. I need something that would be applicable to this case.

@FredA came with valid argument that traces to the socket are only few cm long, so there is no reflections, true, but it is not a point. A point is that I have no use of this signal, maybe I shouldn't care of reflections? That's a question.

 

[dougms3]

It works both ways of course.

Since I seconded the suggestion to use terminating loads instead of just caps, I did not reply as I have little interest to fight pseudo-science or confirmation bias. But for those willing to understand, I will point to this YouTube video:




Signals sent down an unterminated path cause standing waves and so, reflections. This is always so, not just in the case of inductive elements tuning anything. The question is not whether it happens, but whether it’s in fact a problem.

One insightful comment is that buffering on the OCK-2 offers isolation (actually: dampening, not infinite isolation as I don’t think the isolation is optocoupled, is it?) so it is questionable if anyone would notice the difference of a termination load over no termination, or just a cap. But looking at how we are in the extreme dBs here comparing an OCK-1 to an OCK-2, I am sure that any audiophile would take every little extra.

Again, for those who want to understand, take a look at the video which shows what’s happening in exaggeration. Not looking for a quarrel with others — do whatever you want and enjoy the music. Peace!

Funny how a simple suggestion could cause such a ruckus

Thank you for the explanation.

Just a bit of healthy discussion, sometimes theres going to be some discord, no need to get mad. I'm always open to the possiblility that I may be wrong because I'd rather be wrong and improve my audio system than be right and not have the improvement. What I don't like is being told I'm using "a tone" then when I ask for an explanation of why it would be better that way, I'm told to go educate myself. Also, half the time I'm posting I'm blasted on magic gummies so theres that so I apologize if it seems like I'm using "a tone".

I'm gonna order a couple of the caps with the center pin to put it to the hearing test.

But unless theres some explanation, I still think the open ended cables attached to the master clock will make it act like an extension cord with an antenna.

 

[roderickvd]

@roderickvd Given a short signal path (a few cm) the effect of the standing wave should be much smaller than in the video. In my master-clock, there is 10-15cm, so well worh a try. Or is it the opposite??

Indeed in this case the effect will be much smaller.

Then presenting example of a good science that is completely unrelated to the quoted text is indicative of either misunderstanding a content you are quoting or a deliberate redirection of the main point (which would be consistent with demonstrated disrespect).

I present a demonstration of what happens when you send a continuous signal into an unterminated line. You dismiss it as completely unrelated. I will not spend time on that.

But unless theres some explanation, I still think the open ended cables attached to the master clock will make it act like an extension cord with an antenna.

And you would be right.

There are multiple vectors at work here: RF ingress, RF egress and reflections.

 

[FredA]

A friend told me his cybershaft clock came with dummy loads, which he uses.

 

[roderickvd]

Apogee Big Ben recommends it too. Some technical notes at the bottom: https://apogeedigital.com/pdf/bigben_termination.pdf

 

[dougms3]

Apogee Big Ben recommends it too. Some technical notes at the bottom: https://apogeedigital.com/pdf/bigben_termination.pdf

Interesting stuff. So having the dummy load is Kirchhoff's current law in operation right?

And having and open ended cable attached results in more reflection because of the effect of the doubling of current and voltage?

 

[roderickvd]

Interesting stuff. So having the dummy load is Kirchhoff's current law in operation right?

For that just a cap without a center pin would already suffice.

And having and open ended cable attached results in more reflection because of the effect of the doubling of current and voltage?

Reflections are caused by capacitance of the conductor (cabling both internal and external) which causes a current to flow that cannot be sunk on the far end.

 

[sajunky]

I present a demonstration of what happens when you send a continuous signal into an unterminated line. You dismiss it as completely unrelated. I will not spend time on that.

Of course you won't. (...I wish). LOL
...
I do. I don't care about quality of this signal, so your teaching is completely unrelated. Did you really read my post carefully? My reasoning was there, already there. You don't understand, there is no reason wasting your time, I agree.

Jokes aside, I am genuinely interested in your answer to these questions. If you really care of a quality of a signal you don't 'consume', then perhaps you have a reason. So please come back with your reason. This will first time reveal your knowledge and possibly add value to the discussion.

If you don't or will try evasive tactics again, then I will consider your comment about my pseudoscience as an ordinary, primitive troll.

 

[sajunky]

Apogee Big Ben recommends it too. Some technical notes at the bottom: https://apogeedigital.com/pdf/bigben_termination.pdf

They cover general termination rules for the transmission lines including daisy chaining. What they do recommend for unused outputs on the Big Ben? Maybe I missed something, as I don't see.