Master Clock Talk

[Jake2]

.The cable wire sure looks like RG402 coax and has 50 ohm BNC connectors. It is all about the sound though and would certainly try it in action. What other cable types have you tried?

I agree that without knowing, start basic and go up levels especially for the inexperienced—because cable testing is all about experience.

FYI for those wondering about Mil-spec, it doesn't necessarily mean the cables are tested for an extra level of precision beyond required tolerance. It means they are extra durable, overbuilt and bombproof for military use, as to not fail in the field. See below the detailed specifications for those interested. There are general and vague guidance around electrical specifications, but you'll see a lot of it has to do with material specs and durability test required to pass.

MIL-DTL-17 Rev. H​

To say that hi-fi kilobuck cable mfg don't have the background and know how? I can't say I completely agree. This especially if the designer behind the cable has the requisite scientific know-how and the wherewithal to work with a good supplier to achieve.

Yes, there's alot of arbitrage in the cable industry and for us, the mostly in-the-dark audiofools, its hard to navigate the marketing. All we have is our ears and that's all that matters—a particular sound you like and are going for, and there's not really a standard for that.

Here's what I've tried...

The C2 - it was far and away better than the $100 75 ohm 'hifi' coax digital one I used initially - just one I'd had lying around for years. From memory I was using the 75ohm one mainly with the OCK1's square wave output before I appreciated impedance matching criticality, so no wonder it didn't doubt good. I then tried a cheap 50 ohm pro audio/video RG-58 style cable as a second cable to connect my DAC alongside my DDC. Did some brief ABing. Better than the 75ohm one but a long way behind the C2.

I then tried - to use Matt Damon's awesome The Martian line - to science the crap* out of it by selecting a cable with desirable 10mhz specs from a specialist RF equipment & cable desgner and manufacturer, Minicircuits (MC). Their range includes ultra precise high end scientific test cables in very short terminated lengths costing hundreds of dollars. The great thing about MC is their spec sheets are comprehensive, generally including measures of internal reflectivity (return loss or VSWR) at a range of different transmission frequencies, often including our frequency of interest, 10mhz. I checked out some of the manufacturers @mmwwmm referred above (thankyou) and it wasn't quite as easy to find this info, one had some of this info, the other didn't at all.

*edit - this still read s..t in my edit view but gets auto sanitised by Headfi to 'crap' - go figure.

Anyway I chose the BNC terminated cable they offered with the best 10mhz loss/reflectivity spec... it was a 60cm semi rigid model. See my posts below but long story short(er) it was very good but C2 still better, both more resolving and natural sounding.

The top ultra precise $200-300 scientific test cables MC offer have even better specs, IIRC return loss some 20db better still, but aren't offered with BNC terminations. Be curious to know how they'd sound.

Details of the MC cable and my attempt at sciencing...

In terms of 'doing better' I reckon a not bad approach would be to select and try a reasonably priced cable from a company that specialises in the design and manufacture of RF and microwave components and integrated assemblies (incl cables) and provides a good suite of measurements for each model including those relevant to our intended use of carrying a 10mhz clock signal. Specs, such as:

• the cable's 'return loss' in db, higher the better - its inherent level of internal reflectivity at a range of frequencies including 10mhz. This value represents the ratio of the incident (or signal) wave to the reflected wave
• insertion loss, sorta but not precisely the inverse of return loss. Also measured in db, the lower the better.

For example something like this USD25 hand-formable cable from Minicircuit with a return loss at 10mhz of ~45db (superb, anything about 20db is very good I understand) and insertion loss of 0.02 db (vanishingly low). https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=141-24BM+ See link for downloadable data sheet.



Which looks remarkably similar to Cybershaft's USD30-55 semi-rigid cable, though the latter is offered at multiple lengths up to 1.5m whereas the former has a maximum length of two feet per Minicircuit's selection tool. This one comes with a certificate of measured 'SWR' - which I presume refers Standing Wave Ratio or Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (VSWR), closely related to return loss, another way of measuring the amount of reflected signal. https://cybershaft.shop/products/50ohm-bnc-semi-rigid-cable-2



I would've already ordered a cable or two from either or both of these companies to try if the shipping to NZ wasn't totally insane for Minicircuit (~USD140) and OTT for Cybershaft relative to the cable prices (>USD50). I believe a few folk on here have used the Cybershaft and rate it.

And my conclusion after getting it...

Gustard C2 (50 ohm). A much cheaper Minicircuits semi rigid cable that on paper was promising with very good specs around internal reflections was good too (good enough to realize a lot of the benefits of the OCK1), certainly much better than a generic pro audio 50 ohm and a 75 ohm 'hifi' one intended for coax spdif (both of those seriously limited any improvement), but C2 still clearly out in front.

 

[JaMo]

So my little project.. to get rid of radio traffic on my network players has continued today. As I wrote earlier I ordered the Netgear GS108E switch after The Alpha Audio's test. I have it now paired with the LPS. The Gustard R26 with U18 are now relocated to my smaller TV/music Headphone-rig. R26+U18 are now doing the dac-job and I am using my Audio-gd NFB28.38 as pre-/HP amp only now. It is great driving my HE-6 and the HE-500.

I found a 7 meter Cat7 ethernet cable in my stashes. Just long enough to make a connection between the Media Bridge and the small rig. I could hide it in the hollow floor plinth. I put the Netgear switch as a hub for the R26 renderer, a raspberry pi feeding the U18 and a jetson nano box. It took a few hours to clean up cables and stuff but now it's complete and everything is working.

The OCK-1 is providing time pulse for now with 2 x LMR400 0.5 m. The OCK-1 does a great job, by the way

I will leave it at this state now for the X-mas. There is a bunch of cables in new positions that propably has to settle.

Edit. Addition. I use balanced (XLR) cables R26 to NFB28.38! Important for full performance./J

Have a nice evening
/Jan

 

[Exocer]

So my little project.. to get rid of radio traffic on my network players has continued today. As I wrote earlier I ordered the Netgear GS108E switch after The Alpha Audio's test. I have it now paired with the LPS. The Gustard R26 with U18 are now relocated to my smaller TV/music Headphone-rig. R26+U18 are now doing the dac-job and I am using my Audio-gd NFB28.38 as pre-/HP amp only now. It is great driving my HE-6 and the HE-500.

I found a 7 meter Cat7 ethernet cable in my stashes. Just long enough to make a connection between the Media Bridge and the small rig. I could hide it in the hollow floor plinth. I put the Netgear switch as a hub for the R26 renderer, a raspberry pi feeding the U18 and a jetson nano box. It took a few hours to clean up cables and stuff but now it's complete and everything is working.

The OCK-1 is providing time pulse for now with 2 x LMR400 0.5 m. The OCK-1 does a great job, by the way

I will leave it at this state now for the X-mas. There is a bunch of cables in new positions that propably has to settle.

Have a nice evening
/Jan

I am going to follow your lead and pick up a pair of the Netgear switches. I will compare them the Buffalo BS-GS2016. I hope they sound better!

 

[JaMo]

I am going to follow your lead and pick up a pair of the Netgear switches. I will compare them the Buffalo BS-GS2016.

I just bought one GS108E. it runs in parallell with the SW-8. After a few days I will exchange their positions and test out the differencies.

-Why two of them?
/Jan

 

[Exocer]

-Why two of them?

The Buffalos sounded better in pairs. So I am picking up a pair just in case the same rule applies to the Netgear GS108E.

 

[FredA]

For the tweakers amongst you all, I've made a few mods to my OCK-1 that have all been worthwhile -

#1 - Changed the feet to improve mechanical isolation. I used Audio Serenity ISO-9H and have use these before with good results. Link - Audio Serenity ISO-9h

#2 - Fabricated an aluminum RF shield to go between the transformer and incoming AC and the DC & clock stages. The OCK-2 has this kind of isolation. There's a photo of this below. It's attached to the chassis using a vacant hole.

#3 - Changed the main PSU caps from 1000uF to 2200uF Panasonic FC and the two 100uF OSCON style caps on the regulator output to 1000uF.

Was it all worthwhile?

#1 - absolutely, especially as it was an easy mod.
#2 - again, yes, if you're able to fabricate the divider plate.

#1 & #2 positively reinforce the "OCK-1" sound that JaMo so accurately described in his review. Less grain and more clarity in the top end, notably better imaging and perhaps a bit more bass.

#3 - yes, also worthwhile if you're handy with a desoldering tool and soldering iron. This mod changed the sound somewhat to be closer to the OCK-2 sound that JaMo described - the bass leaned out and tightened up a bit (not in a bad way) and the sound signature moved a bit away from the organic end of the spectrums to slightly more analytical. This mod probably hasn't settled down yet though as the caps only have a few days time on them so far. My experience with recapping devices where the caps are at relatively low voltages is that they take a bit longer to settle down. I may change the Panasonic FC caps to my preferred Nichicon KA series, but I had the Panasonics on hand so I went with that as a first step.

I suspect that I may have invalidated my warranty too

Like a few of you here, I started the 10Mhz clock journey with a Morion clock and linear PSU. It's been a hugely satisfying upgrade to get the OCK-1 and it's a massive bargain given that the Morion is now selling for about the same price as the OCK-1, and that's before adding a decent PSU.

Neat, Michael!

 

[JaMo]

A suggestion for You/us that not are populating all six outputs on the OCK-1 and OCK-2 Master clocks.

Link doesn't work. It was dust caps without pin for the BNC outputs. I got them from Aliexpress

/Jan

 

[FredA]

Jamo has way more experience with clocks than I (he's at least up to three I believe!) but from my reading on Headfi at least, most folk tend to top out with something like the Gustard C2 (which I have*) $$ wise <USD200, while some have found very competitive cheaper alternatives just through trying them e.g. FredA 's comparative of the LMR400 cable from Ebay vs the C2. Alas I'm not sure there is a rule of thumb on how much to spend, in my case I sorta feel fair anything above say a Gustard C2 may be overcapitalising on my OCK-1, then again maybe not, if it has parity with $1.5k clocks like the Gustard C18, and arguably you could reasonably spend even for for the OCK-2 which appears to have parity with>$2.5k AD & Cybershaft clocks.

I don't recall many if any folk on Headfi recently trying or sharing their experiences of >USD500 cables like say the $700 SOTM with in-line filter, and I've been keeping my ear to the ground on this. Here's the best take on the upper end of the BNC/coax cable market I've come across, at least in terms of a 75ohm spec, albeit a few years old. https://audiobacon.net/2018/08/11/the-audiophiles-short-list-the-best-digital-coaxial-cables/amp/

I'll hazard a guess @Exocer might've tried one or two, too...

*I preferred the C2 after trying these cables.

@KryptKeeper has lots of experience with clock cables. He now has the Habst in 75ohm version and prefers it to the Sotm, which he prefers to the c2.

I made an attempt of ordering an Harmonic Tech 50-ohm from this Chinese site (https://www.audioaccessoryhk.com) . The order went though but no update yet after 4 days.

 

[ChJL]

I´m also referring to the livestream from alpha audio... there is an older test


my conclusion, good power is mandatory:

good: cheap switch better then without
better: Silent Angel Bonn N8 "variations"
best: Meraki, SotM, Paul Pang

anybody experience with Paul Pang quad (there is a newer "dual" model) or Meraki MS-220P?

 

[Jake2]

So continuing with the recent broader ‘involves clocks / timing improvements’ theme, my intuition tells me that the newly released Soundaware PA1-NU, if implemented very well, and used with a good LPS, has the potential to provide a very clean ethernet signal out of a music server that could provide additive benefits beyond a good or great switch upstream (and/or downstream) of the server.

Potentially particularly useful for those of us who use Mac Minis which can’t take audiophile network cards. Yes it does USB regen also, though my interest is more on the Ethernet side.

https://www.us.soundaware.net/product-page/pa1-nu


And yes it is pricey, more than the v1 EtherRegen. My understanding is it distills some of Soundaware’s best clean usb/network tech from their latest gen server/streamers, which it seems, they are confident is good enough to command that price. Time will tell. But one to watch I reckon.

 

[Dandoudou]

So continuing with the recent broader ‘involves clocks / timing improvements’ theme, my intuition tells me that the newly released Soundaware PA1-NU, if implemented very well, and used with a good LPS, has the potential to provide a very clean ethernet signal out of a music server that could provide additive benefits beyond a good or great switch upstream (and/or downstream) of the server.

Potentially particularly useful for those of us who use Mac Minis which can’t take audiophile network cards. Yes it does USB regen also, though my interest is more on the Ethernet side.

https://www.us.soundaware.net/product-page/pa1-nu


And yes it is pricey, more than the v1 EtherRegen. My understanding is it distills some of Soundaware’s best clean usb/network tech from their latest gen server/streamers, which it seems, they are confident is good enough to command that price. Time will tell. But one to watch I reckon.

This device has the inconvenience of lacking an optical converter, and an input for a 10 mHz clock.
Regarding the Mac Mini, the impossibility to connect an audiophile network card is not that critical. Comparisons proved that the streamed sound with its Ethernet output is superior to the one of Windows PCs with an audiophile Ethernet card.

 

[Jake2]

This device has the inconvenience of lacking an optical converter, and an input for a 10 mHz clock.
Regarding the Mac Mini, the impossibility to connect an audiophile network card is not that critical. Comparisons proved that the streamed sound with its Ethernet output is superior to the one of Windows PCs with an audiophile Ethernet card.

Interesting re the Mac windows comparison, wasn't aware of that.

At least in my use case the server is physically very close to the end point streamer so I wouldn't consider there being any need to introduce a fibre gap.

Noted re lack of an external clock input, this may limit its appeal.

Nevertheless I look forward to reviews, as I feel the concept has promise.

 

[Dandoudou]

Interesting re the Mac windows comparison, wasn't aware of that.

At least in my use case the server is physically very close to the end point streamer so I wouldn't consider there being any need to introduce a fibre gap.

Noted re lack of an external clock input, this may limit its appeal.

Nevertheless I look forward to reviews, as I feel the concept has promise.

Even if the distance between the server and the endpoint is small, the optical isolation offers the advantage of also filtering the noise of the server itself.

Regarding Windows, there's something in the OS that degrades the streamed sound by Ethernet.
I made some experiences with my Dell and W10, using the same players on the Mac and the PC, and also with Linux.

A friend of mine, who is a Windows geek and who has an Ethernet card from JCAT and powers his PC with a balanced LPS from JCAT, tried all the Windows distributions, including W11, W10 Server and W11 Server. And he has a drop in sound quality with them in comparison to Linux.

 

[mantis007]

I got my OCK2 Monday but unfortunately no burnin time for me. I wasn’t able to get it working with my EtherRegen or Esoteric streamer/DAC - tried everything possible and no lock. Alvin is supposed to send a return shipping label and get a new clock to me. Other than that it looks very nice LOL.
tony

Just as an update - Alvin sent me a new OCK2 to replace the defective unit and it works as expected. I'm glad I bought from Beatechnik - they covered return shipping with a label and shipped the new one before I even returned the original - nice. The OCK2 has been powered on for the last 12 days and is sounding good. I have a 75ohm square output going into the EtherRegen and a 50ohm sine going to my DAC. I haven't yet decided if the OCK2 is better than the DAC internal clock - on some songs it can go either way but mostly better with the OCK2. This Thursday I received a new 75 and 50 cable from Beatechnik. They already sound better that my previous low budget cables (Geistnote Wyde Eye, Belden 4794R and 1855a). The OCK2 sounds at least as good as the AfterDark PROJECT CLAYX GIESEMANN OCXO Queen Master Clock in my system which is nice. Anyway just an update for anyone interested.

Tony

​

 

[Exocer]

The Buffalos sounded better in pairs. So I am picking up a pair just in case the same rule applies to the Netgear GS108E.

Slight digression from the discussion at hand. The Netgears arrived yesterday and they sound good but not as good as the BS-gs2016 to me. I agree with the dry comment in the round up.

Just as an update - Alvin sent me a new OCK2 to replace the defective unit and it works as expected. I'm glad I bought from Beatechnik - they covered return shipping with a label and shipped the new one before I even returned the original - nice. The OCK2 has been powered on for the last 12 days and is sounding good. I have a 75ohm square output going into the EtherRegen and a 50ohm sine going to my DAC. I haven't yet decided if the OCK2 is better than the DAC internal clock - on some songs it can go either way but mostly better with the OCK2. This Thursday I received a new 75 and 50 cable from Beatechnik. They already sound better that my previous low budget cables (Geistnote Wyde Eye, Belden 4794R and 1855a). The OCK2 sounds at least as good as the AfterDark PROJECT CLAYX GIESEMANN OCXO Queen Master Clock in my system which is nice. Anyway just an update for anyone interested.

Tony

​

Good update Tony. Can you share which LPS you use(d) with the AD Queen?