[PeteMtl]

Thanks for the reply!

Few things worries me:
1. Will my Marantz + Dac be good enough for HD6xx
- I don't have money for dedicated amp
2. Bass on HD6xx
- I had HD598 and they were lacking bass
- I'm not bass head but on HD589 bass had no impact at all
- so bass on HD6xx worries me

1. Marantz: what exactly is your Marantz amping setup? Normally, regular speaker amps (stereo or multichannel receivers, integrated amps) are not well suited for headphones, because their output impedance is too high and don’t respect the 1/8 rule (output impedance of amp shouldn’t exceed 1/8 of the impedance of the headphone). Most receivers I know including my Onkyo receivers have a headphone output impedance of over 390 ohms and the impedance of the senns are 300 ohms (hd6xx) and 150 ohms (hd58x). You will still be able to use your receiver’s headphone out, but the sound will be muffled, bass will not be clear and firm, but rather muffled and loose because of the impedance mismatch. These amps simply use the main amping used for speakers and apply a strong impedance in order to bring down the power to headphone levels instead of using a dedicated separate headphone amp section such as small op. amps on integrated circuits. Some stereo receivers or integrated amps may provide a dedicated headphone amp section that is independant from the main speaker amping section, but I have very rarely seen it is the case. On the other hand amps like the O2 or the Schiit Magni 3, which both can be had for 100$, have an output impedance specification of under 1 ohms, therefore well suited for any headphone with impedance of 8 ohms or more (most headphones have an impedance between 18 ohms and 600 ohms depending on their design), therefore they may drive well any headphones.
As I told you the HD58x doesn’t need an amp and may be driven directly from the output of a computer, iPhone, iPad, but would benefit eventually from a dedicated amp such as the Schiit Magni 3 or O2 from JDS Labs or Massdrop. The HD6xx would still be usable with a portable, but would only play at very moderate levels because they require at least 2v of output voltage to really shine and most computers or portable devices will not output over 1V, some of them even less than 1v. My iPhone and iPad may output at close to 1V and my mac outputs up to 1.25v I think, enough for the HD58x and a bit short for the hd6xx. And all of these portable gears have headphone jacks or adapters, although with low voltage output, provide very low impedance output, most under 1 ohms, thus perfect for driving most headphones that require low voltage amping. By comparison the O2 and Magni3 at 100$ may output at over 5 or 6v and also have very low impedance output, under 1 ohms typically. Both headphones are quite efficient and do not need a lot of power to be driven to high levels, but they need voltage, at least minimally 2v for the HD6xx and a bit less for the HD58x. So any decent small dedicated headphone amp with low impedance output that may produce at least 2v of output should do it. I think my hd6xx doesn’t need more than a few mW of power (Volts x current = watts), maybe 20 mw is more than enough, (although audio purists will argue that you need 10x that power for peaks power and snake oil argumentation....). I say to you that both of these headphone don’t really need that much total power, they are very efficient, but the HD6xx need higher voltage than what most computers and portables may provide.
2. I also own the HD598 and I too believe it doesn't have enough strong deep bass. I use them solely for TV usage because of their relatively low impedance. I may assure you that the HD6xx has far better and stronger warmer bass than the HD598, it is not comparable. The HD58x has even deeper bass than HD6xx and it is its strong relative advantage compared to the HD6xx. I find however than the HD6xx is more natural, warmer, more romantic and I prefer the mids of the HD6xx over the hd58x. That is why I prefer the HD6xx over the HD58x, except with music that has a lot of sub bass such as electro music and deep house. But overall all HD6 series of headphones have far better bass than HD5 series in my opinion, with the HD600 that has the least bass of the HD6 series and the HD58x that has the deepest sub bass response (35 hz to 100 hz) of the series. The HD6xx has a bit less of sub bass but has a bit more higher bass accentuation (mostly in the 100hz-250hz region) which gives them a warmer rounder sound. Hope it helps, hope I wasn’t too technical.

 

[limaaa]

1. Marantz: what exactly is your Marantz amping setup? Normally, regular speaker amps (stereo or multichannel receivers, integrated amps) are not well suited for headphones, because their output impedance is too high and don’t respect the 1/8 rule (output impedance of amp shouldn’t exceed 1/8 of the impedance of the headphone). Most receivers I know including my Onkyo receivers have a headphone output impedance of over 390 ohms and the impedance of the senns are 300 ohms (hd6xx) and 150 ohms (hd58x). You will still be able to use your receiver’s headphone out, but the sound will be muffled, bass will not be clear and firm, but rather muffled and loose because of the impedance mismatch. These amps simply use the main amping used for speakers and apply a strong impedance in order to bring down the power to headphone levels instead of using a dedicated separate headphone amp section such as small op. amps on integrated circuits. Some stereo receivers or integrated amps may provide a dedicated headphone amp section that is independant from the main speaker amping section, but I have very rarely seen it is the case. On the other hand amps like the O2 or the Schiit Magni 3, which both can be had for 100$, have an output impedance specification of under 1 ohms, therefore well suited for any headphone with impedance of 8 ohms or more (most headphones have an impedance between 18 ohms and 600 ohms depending on their design), therefore they may drive well any headphones.
As I told you the HD58x doesn’t need an amp and may be driven directly from the output of a computer, iPhone, iPad, but would benefit eventually from a dedicated amp such as the Schiit Magni 3 or O2 from JDS Labs or Massdrop. The HD6xx would still be usable with a portable, but would only play at very moderate levels because they require at least 2v of output voltage to really shine and most computers or portable devices will not output over 1V, some of them even less than 1v. My iPhone and iPad may output at close to 1V and my mac outputs up to 1.25v I think, enough for the HD58x and a bit short for the hd6xx. And all of these portable gears have headphone jacks or adapters, although with low voltage output, provide very low impedance output, most under 1 ohms, thus perfect for driving most headphones that require low voltage amping. By comparison the O2 and Magni3 at 100$ may output at over 5 or 6v and also have very low impedance output, under 1 ohms typically. Both headphones are quite efficient and do not need a lot of power to be driven to high levels, but they need voltage, at least minimally 2v for the HD6xx and a bit less for the HD58x. So any decent small dedicated headphone amp with low impedance output that may produce at least 2v of output should do it. I think my hd6xx doesn’t need more than a few mW of power (Volts x current = watts), maybe 20 mw is more than enough, (although audio purists will argue that you need 10x that power for peaks power and snake oil argumentation....). I say to you that both of these headphone don’t really need that much total power, they are very efficient, but the HD6xx need higher voltage than what most computers and portables may provide.
2. I also own the HD598 and I too believe it doesn't have enough strong deep bass. I use them solely for TV usage because of their relatively low impedance. I may assure you that the HD6xx has far better and stronger warmer bass than the HD598, it is not comparable. The HD58x has even deeper bass than HD6xx and it is its strong relative advantage compared to the HD6xx. I find however than the HD6xx is more natural, warmer, more romantic and I prefer the mids of the HD6xx over the hd58x. That is why I prefer the HD6xx over the HD58x, except with music that has a lot of sub bass such as electro music and deep house. But overall all HD6 series of headphones have far better bass than HD5 series in my opinion, with the HD600 that has the least bass of the HD6 series and the HD58x that has the deepest sub bass response (35 hz to 100 hz) of the series. The HD6xx has a bit less of sub bass but has a bit more higher bass accentuation (mostly in the 100hz-250hz region) which gives them a warmer rounder sound. Hope it helps, hope I wasn’t too technical.

Thanks for great post! I didn't know any of this.
Here is the specs od my stereo amp:
https://www.cnet.com/products/marantz-pm6004-amplifier/

Impedence output is 4 Ohm.

HD 598 was just fine when connected to stereo amp.

Right now I have NAD VISO HP50. Also fine.
HP50 also sounds great connected directly to my phone. But HD598 not so much, they sound much better whey connected on my stereo amp + dac

 

[GearMe]

Some quick googling seems to imply that the PM6004 doesn't have a discrete headphone amplifier; looks like that was available in the next model up -- PM6005...see excerpt below from PM6005 spec sheet.

Fully Discrete Headphone Amplifier
For superb sound quality with the widest range of headphone types, the PM6005 features a fully discrete headphone amplifier that is able to handle just about any headphone type, regardless of impedance or sensitivity. The high quality gold plated ¼" headphone jack is compatible with audiophile and studio headphones and adapters.

So...would guess that PeteMtl is spot on with his analysis on pairing headphones with the PM6004.

Am thinking that 4 Ohm impedance number is just for quoting the power capabilities for the speaker outputs -- 45wpc (at 8 ohm) / 60wpc (at 4 ohm).

However, what matters most is whether you're enjoying what you're hearing when you plug your headphones in!

FWIW...when I moved from a 2.1 channel system to headphones, I initially found that headphones didn't sound as good as they did in the store (through their dedicated headphone amp). So...I bought a relatively inexpensive Dac/Amp with a low output impedance to 'test the waters' regarding the value of having a separate desktop setup. For some cans, this setup will matter more than others. To me, it's worth having from a listening experience but ymmv. That said, you're already half way there since you have a Hrt Music streamer II Dac. If there's a way to add a headphone solid amp to your system, I'd guess you'll be happy you did.

BTW...there are a variety of decent headphone amps at the $100 (or less sometimes) price point.

 

[limaaa]

Some quick googling seems to imply that the PM6004 doesn't have a discrete headphone amplifier; looks like that was available in the next model up -- PM6005...see excerpt below from PM6005 spec sheet.

Fully Discrete Headphone Amplifier
For superb sound quality with the widest range of headphone types, the PM6005 features a fully discrete headphone amplifier that is able to handle just about any headphone type, regardless of impedance or sensitivity. The high quality gold plated ¼" headphone jack is compatible with audiophile and studio headphones and adapters.

So...would guess that PeteMtl is spot on with his analysis on pairing headphones with the PM6004.

Am thinking that 4 Ohm impedance number is just for quoting the power capabilities for the speaker outputs -- 45wpc (at 8 ohm) / 60wpc (at 4 ohm).

However, what matters most is whether you're enjoying what you're hearing when you plug your headphones in!

FWIW...when I moved from a 2.1 channel system to headphones, I initially found that headphones didn't sound as good as they did in the store (through their dedicated headphone amp). So...I bought a relatively inexpensive Dac/Amp with a low output impedance to 'test the waters' regarding the value of having a separate desktop setup. For some cans, this setup will matter more than others. To me, it's worth having from a listening experience but ymmv. That said, you're already half way there since you have a Hrt Music streamer II Dac. If there's a way to add a headphone solid amp to your system, I'd guess you'll be happy you did.

BTW...there are a variety of decent headphone amps at the $100 (or less sometimes) price point.

Thank's for the reply!
I think I'll order HD 58x and see if I like the sound. Eventualy I'll buy head amp.

I was thinking to buy HD6xx but the difference is 70$. Worth it?

 

[Ichos]

It's not a matter of value.
They are a little different presentations so the factor to decide is the tonality you prefer.
Also HD6xx are a little bit more difficult to drive and they need better upstream gear to get the most out of them.

 

[GearMe]

It's not a matter of value.
They are a little different presentations so the factor to decide is the tonality you prefer.
Also HD6xx are a little bit more difficult to drive and they need better upstream gear to get the most out of them.

Agreed

 

[PeteMtl]

Thanks for great post! I didn't know any of this.
Here is the specs od my stereo amp:
https://www.cnet.com/products/marantz-pm6004-amplifier/

Impedence output is 4 Ohm.

HD 598 was just fine when connected to stereo amp.

Right now I have NAD VISO HP50. Also fine.
HP50 also sounds great connected directly to my phone. But HD598 not so much, they sound much better whey connected on my stereo amp + dac

i agree with GearMe, the 4 ohm specification is not the output impedance of the headphone jack, but rather the fact that the amp is able to drive speakers rated at 8 ohms or down to 4 ohms.
The fact that your amp doesn’t have a dedicated headphone op. amp. Is a sign that it uses the main amp with a big fat resistor to bring down the power to headphone levels at the output Jack, which means it’s output impedance is probably quite high. I maintain my previous comment in using such an amp with headphones and the 1:8 ratio rule to get correct sound from an amp using headphones. You may still enjoy the sound but I don’t recommend it. It’s even worse with the HD58x because it’s impedance is quite lower and the ratio is probably farther to the 1:8 recommend maximal ratio. The ratio is most probably something like 390:300 for the HD6xx and 390:150 for the HD58x, very far to the 1:8 ratio. The ratio would be even worse with your HD598 because if it’s lower impedance. Which explains that the bass of the HD598 must be very loose and muddy, and at the same time very boosted in the mid/higher bass region.
Do yourself a favour: eventually buy yourself a basic 100$ amp like the JDS or Massdrop O2 or the Schiit Magni3 or any other competing comparable low impedance headphone amp that you will add to your DAC, regardless of which headphone you choose between HD598/6xx/58x. You will thank me.
Another thing you can do is to plug the line out of your Marantz into the audio line in of your new headphone amp and you then may use the Marantz as your pre-amp/source. You may then use your turntable/phono or CD player or any digital/streaming source and you may still use the DAC inside your Marantz if it has one.

In my lounge setup I use a Massdrop O2 amp (without DAC) which is plugged to my Onkyo stereo digital streaming receiver (TX-8160 if you must know) in the audio line out in the back of the Onkyo. I use this setup and use the AKM DAC inside my Onkyo to listen to Spotify, my CD player or other sources such as my HK cassette deck or my Technics SL1200 mk2 turntable with all my headphones (HD600/HD6XX/HD58X/HD25 and Hifiman HE400i), in all cases via the O2 headphone amp. Works well!

 

[PeteMtl]

Agreed

You can’t go wrong with any of the two headphones. Why don’t you buy both, try and compare them for a little while and resell one of them later. By the time you will be through this process I would bet you will keep both headphones... lol! (This is addressed to Limaaa)

 

[limaaa]

You can’t go wrong with any of the two headphones. Why don’t you buy both, try and compare them for a little while and resell one of them later. By the time you will be through this process I would bet you will keep both headphones... lol! (This is addressed to Limaaa)

Hehe unfortunately I have money only for one

 

[PeteMtl]

Hehe unfortunately I have money only for one

Toss the dice! They are both very good and recommended depending on your taste. What kind of music do you listen most?

 

[limaaa]

Toss the dice! They are both very good and recommended depending on your taste. What kind of music do you listen most?

Bands I listen the most:
Porcupine Tree
Pink Floyd
Tom Waits
Incubus

Basicly rock music and Tom Waits

I also love to watch movies. My Nad Viso hp 50 is not so good for movies. I need some open cans

 

[limaaa]

i agree with GearMe, the 4 ohm specification is not the output impedance of the headphone jack, but rather the fact that the amp is able to drive speakers rated at 8 ohms or down to 4 ohms.
The fact that your amp doesn’t have a dedicated headphone op. amp. Is a sign that it uses the main amp with a big fat resistor to bring down the power to headphone levels at the output Jack, which means it’s output impedance is probably quite high. I maintain my previous comment in using such an amp with headphones and the 1:8 ratio rule to get correct sound from an amp using headphones. You may still enjoy the sound but I don’t recommend it. It’s even worse with the HD58x because it’s impedance is quite lower and the ratio is probably farther to the 1:8 recommend maximal ratio. The ratio is most probably something like 390:300 for the HD6xx and 390:150 for the HD58x, very far to the 1:8 ratio. The ratio would be even worse with your HD598 because if it’s lower impedance. Which explains that the bass of the HD598 must be very loose and muddy, and at the same time very boosted in the mid/higher bass region.
Do yourself a favour: eventually buy yourself a basic 100$ amp like the JDS or Massdrop O2 or the Schiit Magni3 or any other competing comparable low impedance headphone amp that you will add to your DAC, regardless of which headphone you choose between HD598/6xx/58x. You will thank me.
Another thing you can do is to plug the line out of your Marantz into the audio line in of your new headphone amp and you then may use the Marantz as your pre-amp/source. You may then use your turntable/phono or CD player or any digital/streaming source and you may still use the DAC inside your Marantz if it has one.

In my lounge setup I use a Massdrop O2 amp (without DAC) which is plugged to my Onkyo stereo digital streaming receiver (TX-8160 if you must know) in the audio line out in the back of the Onkyo. I use this setup and use the AKM DAC inside my Onkyo to listen to Spotify, my CD player or other sources such as my HK cassette deck or my Technics SL1200 mk2 turntable with all my headphones (HD600/HD6XX/HD58X/HD25 and Hifiman HE400i), in all cases via the O2 headphone amp. Works well!

Uffff now I need an amp
The best amp to match sennheisers in price range 100-150$?

 

[PeteMtl]

Bands I listen the most:
Porcupine Tree
Pink Floyd
Tom Waits
Incubus

Basicly rock music and Tom Waits

I also love to watch movies. My Nad Viso hp 50 is not so good for movies. I need some open cans

for Classic Rock with bass guitar, electric guitar and vocals, Pink Floyd, Tom Waits I would prefer the HD6xx (or the HE400i) to the HD58x, but it’s a personal opinion and some may argue the contrary.

 

[PeteMtl]

Uffff now I need an amp
The best amp to match sennheisers in price range 100-150$?

i gave you two recommendations:
- O2 amp either from Massdrop (now called Drop) or JDS Labs
- Schiit Magni 3
Each for about 100$ (Massdrop O2 or Schiit Magni 3, the JDS Version of the O2 may be a bit higher priced)
Jds labs has a new cheap amp called Atom that is also about 100$ And is apparently very good, even better than the O2 according to some, I don’t know yet I haven’t tried it.
Anyone of these will fit your need for years to come. There are many higher priced amps out there such as the Schiit higher priced tube amps or Massdrop THX AAA amp (see drop.com) but you may never hear the difference except if you are a very refined audiophile with well trained ears. Most of these higher priced amps are well designed stuff with terrific components but the sound difference is mostly snake oil if you ask me... As said by Schiit on their website regarding the basic Magni 3, it’s probably all you may ever need in a small headphone amp, no need to spend more.

 

[DavidA]

Uffff now I need an amp
The best amp to match sennheisers in price range 100-150$?

I'd suggest going with the HD58X to start, it sounds quite good on almost anything that I've tried them with. The HD6XX or HD650 really need a dedicated amp to get the most out of them and to me its an OTL amp like the BH Crack with selected tubes over the stock ones so this will be about a $400 to $600 amp when built.

I've found that my Sony ES HT receiver has a fairly high output impedance so my HD650 and HD6XX sound decent on it so your Marantz might actually work with the HD6XX but for watching movies I will usually go with my HD700, better soundstage and a bit more dynamic overall.