Manic Depression... folk who suffer from it...
Jul 31, 2008 at 5:01 PM Post #31 of 69

philodox

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm guessing most people who posted here don't have the slightest clue of what they're talking about (guessing), and most certainly make graver mistakes in their advice than trained physicians/psychiatrists.


Agreed, though I'd drop "I'm guessing".
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I'm with marvin though in that Doctors are not infallible. In their defense it isn't really their fault though. Nobody really understands how the brain works well enough to do any better than guesswork and trial and error when it comes to accurately diagnosing illness with testing and treating it with drugs. In my opinion observation and counselling are much more powerfull tools, the budget just isn't there to do either properly.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 6:08 PM Post #32 of 69

earwicker7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Agreed, though I'd drop "I'm guessing".
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I'm with marvin though in that Doctors are not infallible. In their defense it isn't really their fault though. Nobody really understands how the brain works well enough to do any better than guesswork and trial and error when it comes to accurately diagnosing illness with testing and treating it with drugs. In my opinion observation and counselling are much more powerfull tools, the budget just isn't there to do either properly.



As someone who, again, graduated Phi Beta Kappa with a degree in psychology, I'm of the opinion that counseling is a joke. The primary reason I dropped out of graduate school is that we were encouraged to do everything possible to keep the patients coming back for counseling sessions regardless of the actual need. Patient cured? Well, sure, for today... but if they don't come back next week, stuff could happen! Most "counselors" are glorified fortune tellers.

There is very little scientific evidence that therapy does anything other than line the pockets of the therapists. On the other hand, there is overwhelming evidence that most psychiatric conditions respond well to medication. Some day everyone will come to acknowledge that mental diseases are no different than medical diseases; you wouldn't tell a cancer patient that they need to talk to someone instead of giving them medication, would you?
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 6:48 PM Post #33 of 69

Tiger27

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry, there is no real reason to all this, I just wanted to rant some of this out.
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~Phewl.



This topic panned out just fine, imo. Mr. Phewl was not explicitly seeking advice, but due to the nature of the topic, received tons of it-some right, some wrong. The beauty of an open forum is that the "wrong" advice is self corrected, if you will, by those contributing to the forum.

Of course a web-based forum (an audiophile forum nonetheless) is not the place for a definitive diagnosis/treatment/prognosis of any serious medical condition and I don't believe Phewl was intending to use it as such nor did he.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 7:08 PM Post #34 of 69

philodox

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Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm of the opinion that counseling is a joke.

There is very little scientific evidence that therapy does anything other than line the pockets of the therapists. On the other hand, there is overwhelming evidence that most psychiatric conditions respond well to medication. Some day everyone will come to acknowledge that mental diseases are no different than medical diseases; you wouldn't tell a cancer patient that they need to talk to someone instead of giving them medication, would you?



Comparing Bipolar Disorder and Cancer is a little silly wouldn't you say? One affects the mind and is barely understood, one affects the body and is in many cases curable.

I agree with you that counseling is a joke though... as it is currently. I don't think that it is ultimately useless if done properly. Peer counseling from trained individuals who have experience with what the patient is going through could be very helpfull. Other than my own personal discovery, I would say that talking to other successfull and stable bipolar people has made the largest impact on my continuing good health. I've been stable for over 10 years with no medication.

It just saddens me when I hear about people who are overmedicated and don't get the attention that they need. I'm not saying that this approach would work in every instance, but it is most definately worth it. If you can teach someone to live with their illness on minimal or no medication, their quality of life will almost surely be better. Drugs are quite effective at pulling someone out of a manic or depressive episode, but once you are stable they alter you mentally too much in my opinion. I was put on drugs that made me effectively a zombie or changed my personality to the point where I may as well have been another person. That combined with the physical [weight gain, immune system, etc] side effects can really mess a person up. I'm sure you'll tell me that the right 'mix' needs to be found, but I'd rather not be someones guinea pig.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 8:30 PM Post #35 of 69

earwicker7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Comparing Bipolar Disorder and Cancer is a little silly wouldn't you say? One affects the mind and is barely understood, one affects the body and is in many cases curable.

I agree with you that counseling is a joke though... as it is currently. I don't think that it is ultimately useless if done properly. Peer counseling from trained individuals who have experience with what the patient is going through could be very helpfull. Other than my own personal discovery, I would say that talking to other successfull and stable bipolar people has made the largest impact on my continuing good health. I've been stable for over 10 years with no medication.

It just saddens me when I hear about people who are overmedicated and don't get the attention that they need. I'm not saying that this approach would work in every instance, but it is most definately worth it. If you can teach someone to live with their illness on minimal or no medication, their quality of life will almost surely be better. Drugs are quite effective at pulling someone out of a manic or depressive episode, but once you are stable they alter you mentally too much in my opinion. I was put on drugs that made me effectively a zombie or changed my personality to the point where I may as well have been another person. That combined with the physical [weight gain, immune system, etc] side effects can really mess a person up. I'm sure you'll tell me that the right 'mix' needs to be found, but I'd rather not be someones guinea pig.



Are you Bi-Polar 1 or 2? Our understanding of Type 1 isn't perfect so there is a bit of hit and miss with medication, but Type 2 is considered one of the easiest mental conditions to cure.

As far as feeling like a zombie... if this is the case, either you were overmedicated or it was a side effect that should have gone away over time. There are some people who like the whole roller coaster aspect, and as far as I'm concerned, if you're single with no kids you've got every right to live that way. My problem is when people who are Bi-Polar and have families don't realize how much damage they're doing... I very much agree with the OP about who suffers the most. I'm Type 2, and the crap I put my family through was awful. I've been properly medicated for about 5 years now and have never been happier.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 9:02 PM Post #36 of 69

AudioPhewl

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Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Disclaimer: I already replied to this and my IE crashed, so this is going to be more brief and to the point. Sorry if I come off as a prick; it's really not meant that way.
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To the OP:

There are so many things wrong with this thread...

1. Why are you posting personal details about your sisters illness on here?



Because it's anonymous. Makes no odds how personal I get, nobody on here knows me, nor her. And I'm quite doubtful that anyone I did know would spot this on here, and even if they did, they'd not likely piece together that it was me.

Without any evidence of who I, or she, is, then just how personal are the personal details?

Quote:

2. Manic depression is an old term no longer used, Bipolar Disorder is more proper.


Both terms are used frequently. A quick Google shows well over 2 million pages for "manic depression" - it's not exactly unheard of, nor obsolete.

Quote:

3. You are making assumptions based on every person with this mental illness based on your sisters actions. From the sounds of things she is using Bipolar Disorder as an excuse for her poor behaviour.


You're on the money as far as her excuse for her behaviour goes. But I make no assumptions about the rest of the bipolar population. I was talking only about my sister, and I fail to see where I've generalised that every other sufferer will behave like her.

About the only generalisation I made is that the people who suffer from manic depression aren't those who are diagnosed with it. That the people surrounding them often end up suffering more.

Quote:

4. Try to have more empathy for your sister. You really have no idea what she is going through. [This is by no means me justifying her actions.]


I've given her plenty of empathy over the years. I remained in an abusive household for many years to ensure she didn't suffer the same fate as me. I've sat down and listened to her talk of her problems many, many times over the years. I feel I have a good understanding of what she's going through - it just throws me that she uses it as an excuse, or a reason, for each of her poor personal characteristics.

Quote:

5. Cry me a river... the title and blurb at the beginning is laughable. Be happy that you are healthy.


Where the efff did that come from? I didn't make the post to look for sympathy, nor help. It was a "spur of the moment" decision after our latest row, merely to document her lifestyle and behaviour more than anything else.

You accuse me of too little empathy, based on a single post... yet you have the gall to make a comment like that? Pot? Kettle?

How are you to know what I do or don't have that could detract from being "healthy"?

~Phewl.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 9:36 PM Post #37 of 69

aaron313

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Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are you Bi-Polar 1 or 2? Our understanding of Type 1 isn't perfect so there is a bit of hit and miss with medication, but Type 2 is considered one of the easiest mental conditions to cure.

As far as feeling like a zombie... if this is the case, either you were overmedicated or it was a side effect that should have gone away over time. There are some people who like the whole roller coaster aspect, and as far as I'm concerned, if you're single with no kids you've got every right to live that way. My problem is when people who are Bi-Polar and have families don't realize how much damage they're doing... I very much agree with the OP about who suffers the most. I'm Type 2, and the crap I put my family through was awful. I've been properly medicated for about 5 years now and have never been happier.



But don't you think that both yours and my spending patterns are still indicative of our illness? I don't think that my spending is controlled in the least, even with large quantities of medication. What to do about that? Cut off all access to money and credit cards?

I can say that I might have never been happier, but at what financial cost? I am only 22, so if I were broke it would not be the end of the world, but I am worried about what mindset I am cementing.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 9:42 PM Post #38 of 69

earwicker7

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Originally Posted by aaron313 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But don't you think that both yours and my spending patterns still give away our illness? I don't think that my spending is controlled in the least, even with large quantities of medication. What to do about that? Cut off all access to money and credit cards?


Compared to what I was like pre-medication, it's actually pretty mild. I honestly don't spend too much money on other stuff; until a few months ago I lived in an apartment complex that had a ton of Section 8's even though I could afford better. Of course it wouldn't kill me to stop spending money on audio stuff, but everyone, crazy or not, has their obsessions.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 9:45 PM Post #39 of 69

philodox

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Type 1, and I've only experienced manic episodes.

I doubt it was overmedication, as I fought tooth and nail to get the lowest doses advisable. I tried 3 different primary medications and all affected me negatively. I had to switch off of the first due to a severely negative reaction [though it did help me get stable] and the second due to a low white blood cell count. The third 'worked', but I found that it altered my personality too much. I stayed on it for around 6 months.

I definately don't enjoy the rollercoaster, though there are of course parts of it that appealed to me. I find that as long as I keep my emotions in check, stay away from drugs and tread warily during times of stress, I can avoid manic episodes. Both of the major manic breaks I had earlier in life were brought on by a combination of the above factors. It would be great if you could toe that line between normality and loosing touch with reality, but it really isn't possible.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 9:55 PM Post #40 of 69

aaron313

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Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Compared to what I was like pre-medication, it's actually pretty mild. I honestly don't spend too much money on other stuff; until a few months ago I lived in an apartment complex that had a ton of Section 8's even though I could afford better. Of course it wouldn't kill me to stop spending money on audio stuff, but everyone, crazy or not, has their obsessions.


And then there's the case of why you chose to live in that complex. I would say that manically denying yourself in order to achieve other goals is extreme (Not that I would not do the same). It just raises the question: how far can medicine go in preventing manic symptoms from being borne out in one's actions. Yes, both you and I do not feel as manic as we once did, but we still display the classic signs of mania. I think that is where therapy can help.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 10:04 PM Post #41 of 69

philodox

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Both terms are used frequently. A quick Google shows well over 2 million pages for "manic depression" - it's not exactly unheard of, nor obsolete.


Just because it is used frequently does not make it proper. There are many words used frequently in relation to various racial and ethnic backgrounds that people find offensive. The name of the illness was changed to Bipolar Disorder in part to move away from the idea that those afflicted are all 'maniacs'. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
About the only generalisation I made is that the people who suffer from manic depression aren't those who are diagnosed with it. That the people surrounding them often end up suffering more.


Exactly, that is what I was referring to. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've given her plenty of empathy over the years. I remained in an abusive household for many years to ensure she didn't suffer the same fate as me. I've sat down and listened to her talk of her problems many, many times over the years. I feel I have a good understanding of what she's going through - it just throws me that she uses it as an excuse, or a reason, for each of her poor personal characteristics.


I hear you. It is a tough thing, that's for sure. It becomes very hard to tell what you can 'blame' on the illness and what is her taking advantage of the situation. Either way, she needs your support. Sometimes family can be a pain in the ass, but some day she might be there for you when you need it. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Where the efff did that come from? I didn't make the post to look for sympathy, nor help. It was a "spur of the moment" decision after our latest row, merely to document her lifestyle and behaviour more than anything else.


I think you misunderstood what I meant... or I didn't explain it properly. I find it extremely insensitive for you to say that it is the families of those who are sick who truely suffer. I'm not saying that they aren't affected, but the person who is actually going through it certainly has a lot more to work out. First you have to come to the realization that something is wrong with you, then you have to deal with it, then you have to deal with how you've likely screwed up your life while sick, then you have to deal with remorse over the people you've hurt, then you have to try to be a usefull 'normal' member of society. Your comment just read like, "Damn, I'm sick of dealing with my crazy Sister. Why me?"

Like I said at the end of the post I was in a bad mood, sorry if I offended you. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How are you to know what I do or don't have that could detract from being "healthy"?


Based on the wording of your post I assumed that you are are in good mental health.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 10:28 PM Post #42 of 69

AudioPhewl

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philodox - thank-you for clarifying.

I, quite obviously, can't have a complete understanding of my sister and her condition. I do feel I understand a lot of it, certainly enough to realise that she plays on the fact that she's "bi-polar", and uses it as a cover for everything she wants to do, which normal people wouldn't necessarily do.

I do suffer with mental health issues. I've been diagnosed with depression, for some 3 years now. Sad part is I feel exactly how I've felt the rest of my life. I've been on the waiting list to see a psychiatrist through the NHS for the last 10 months, and I'm still months away from doing so. I also suffer badly with insomnia, and infrequent episodes of panic attacks.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people suffer from similar problems. There are so many people on here who've got first-hand experience of living with various forms of depression, and those who've experience of people they care about suffering with it. I think the important thing to note is that everyone who has an opinion has formed it based on their own experiences, and nobody else can sit back and say it is categorically right or wrong. There will always be those that we don't really understand, but without knowing a lot more about their individual circumstances, we can't hope to either.

Life's hard.
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~Phewl.
 
Jul 31, 2008 at 11:55 PM Post #44 of 69

earwicker7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron313 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And then there's the case of why you chose to live in that complex. I would say that manically denying yourself in order to achieve other goals is extreme (Not that I would not do the same). It just raises the question: how far can medicine go in preventing manic symptoms from being borne out in one's actions. Yes, both you and I do not feel as manic as we once did, but we still display the classic signs of mania. I think that is where therapy can help.


Keep in mind, I'm Type 2, so I only have very rare episodes of hypomania... it's a totally different ballgame from the fullblown "spend everything you've got" manic episodes of my Type 1 mother. I haven't spent myself out of house and home; I still have around $300,000 of liquid assets and will probably quadruple that soon (unfortunately, my grandfather is dying... he is leaving me a substantial amount of money). I certainly don't live in the grand lifestyle that I could; I drive a Ford Focus and only have a small two bedroom apartment. Electronics have just always been an addiction with me.
 
Aug 1, 2008 at 3:16 AM Post #45 of 69

philodox

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
thank-you for clarifying.


My pleasure... sorry I was in such a pissy mood earlier. I read some of what you said wrong and went into battle mode. I tend to be a bet touchy about this stuff. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
certainly enough to realize that she plays on the fact that she's "bi-polar", and uses it as a cover for everything she wants to do, which normal people wouldn't necessarily do.


Well, that is definitely not cool on her part. Hopefully she grows up soon. Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I do suffer with mental health issues. I've been diagnosed with depression, for some 3 years now. Sad part is I feel exactly how I've felt the rest of my life. I've been on the waiting list to see a psychiatrist through the NHS for the last 10 months, and I'm still months away from doing so. I also suffer badly with insomnia, and infrequent episodes of panic attacks.


Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. I have a friend who deals with depression and I would say personally, based on our talks, that he is probably the worse off of the two of us. With bipolar disorder the main problem is that you can't let yourself get too happy or too sad as the 'stopgap' that is there for most people isn't for you and your serotonin level keeps rising or falling past the normal threshold. So, if you keep yourself in check and stay clear of substances and situations that will cause you trouble you can theoretically [and practically if I am any indication] keep stable without medication. My limited understanding of depression leads me to believe that it is not as simple as just keeping a positive attitude. That is really terrible that you have to wait 10 months. Are you in the US or elsewhere? Would it be different if you were in a critical state? Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It never ceases to amaze me just how many people suffer from similar problems. There are so many people on here who've got first-hand experience of living with various forms of depression, and those who've experience of people they care about suffering with it. I think the important thing to note is that everyone who has an opinion has formed it based on their own experiences, and nobody else can sit back and say it is categorically right or wrong. There will always be those that we don't really understand, but without knowing a lot more about their individual circumstances, we can't hope to either.


Couldn't have said it better myself. I've met a host of people with various mental illness and they all handle it in their own way. One of the most intelligent people I've ever met was a schizophrenic... but he did dress like charlie chaplin and had a few interesting quirks.
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