Luxury & Precision (LP) Portable USB DAC/AMP W1 and W2 (The new W2-131 Version is Available, Related Info on Post #1)
Oct 28, 2021 at 10:25 PM Post #4,216 of 5,297
Yeah I saw the report from Wolf. The measurement seems a bit embarrassing for S2 with some hardware bugs that cut things out at 12k?
Posting output power under 10% THD+N is also very misleading. General rule of thumb is 1% since that's about the level that human can start to hear distortion. 10% distortion is pretty much like broken record. You only publish output power with 10% THD+N to beautify your number.
 
Oct 28, 2021 at 10:32 PM Post #4,217 of 5,297
Sometimes I think it's better not to look at measurements ha ha.

Not asking it to be as nice as W2 myself, but not expecting it to have some obviously flaw either. At this point of age, I think any manufacturer that target audiophiles customer needs to do at least some basic measurement before product release to rule out obvious bug... and it is obviously some just don't. Even W2 was found to have bug before release because of measurement. L&P took the time to correct it instead of a haste release and that's what separates man from boy.
 
Oct 28, 2021 at 10:39 PM Post #4,218 of 5,297
Not asking it to be as nice as W2 myself, but not expecting it to have some obviously flaw either. At this point of age, I think any manufacturer that target audiophiles customer needs to do at least some basic measurement before product release to rule out obvious bug... and it is obviously some just don't. Even W2 was found to have bug before release because of measurement. L&P took the time to correct it instead of a haste release and that's what separates man from boy.

Yep bugs aren't good for sure. Hopefully they will get it corrected asap. Let's face it, most of these companies release products with bugs unfortunately. It's the same way with games also, there's always patches after the fact to fix things.

I was referring mostly to myself, because sometimes stuff with less than stellar numbers sounds really good to me. And that's what really matters in the end.

L&P does seem to be on top of things though. Reminds me of the companies that have more manpower to devote to insuring software is good out of the gate like AK, Sony etc.
 
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Oct 28, 2021 at 11:00 PM Post #4,219 of 5,297
Not asking it to be as nice as W2 myself, but not expecting it to have some obviously flaw either. At this point of age, I think any manufacturer that target audiophiles customer needs to do at least some basic measurement before product release to rule out obvious bug... and it is obviously some just don't. Even W2 was found to have bug before release because of measurement. L&P took the time to correct it instead of a haste release and that's what separates man from boy.

Did you have a chance to hear S2? I don't want to sound ignorant especially since a lot of people relying on my reviews, but what am I supposed to hear as a result of these S2 measurement? As I mentioned in S2 thread, purely on the sound quality, S2 is just slightly behind W2, from functionality perspective it is ahead, and for iPhone users I would actually recommend S2 over W2. I do analyze and judge audio gear based on what and how I hear it, and really curious how would those measurements translate into the actual sound issues? I hear absolutely zero distortion, sound is very clean, testing it with Traillii and First Time cable, spent quite some time going back and forth between S1, S2, and W2.
 
Oct 28, 2021 at 11:41 PM Post #4,220 of 5,297
Did you have a chance to hear S2? I don't want to sound ignorant especially since a lot of people relying on my reviews, but what am I supposed to hear as a result of these S2 measurement? As I mentioned in S2 thread, purely on the sound quality, S2 is just slightly behind W2, from functionality perspective it is ahead, and for iPhone users I would actually recommend S2 over W2. I do analyze and judge audio gear based on what and how I hear it, and really curious how would those measurements translate into the actual sound issues? I hear absolutely zero distortion, sound is very clean, testing it with Traillii and First Time cable, spent quite some time going back and forth between S1, S2, and W2.

OK, so if you can't hear 12kHz cutoff (which can be understandable since adult might not have great hearing on the upper treble region due to natural aging), and how's that going to affect you giving S2 a great review or not? How is that going to affect the reader of your review who trust your review? I am not saying I want to see perfect measurement on every audio devices, I just saying this is a low level mistake that should have been ruled out during the debugging process by a simple measurement using an audio analyzer, but the fact is it didn't. What kind of audio manufacturer should be allowed not to debug its device before release? What kind of audio manufacturer who advertises its EQ ability but forgot to leave 6dB of headroom to avoid clipping, which is a common knowledge in the industry BTW? Again, I am not asking for perfection, I am just saying that if you want to publish output power on 10% THD+N (which other publish under 1%), at least you should have the ball to list down the detail. I am asking manufacturer to do some basic homework before releasing their devices, so they don't release products with obvious issue. WE ARE HUMAN, so I understand some of these issue might not be very audible or immediately obvious to our ears, at least not to everyone. But that's no excuse for manufacturer to skip basic measurement and let simple mistake passes by, perhaps hoping no one will hear it? I don't believe in either 'measuring over hearing' or 'hearing over measurement' - I believe they should compliment each other, and that's how we can keep ourselves honest in a hobby that is both important in subjective and objective experience at the same time.
 
Oct 29, 2021 at 12:02 AM Post #4,221 of 5,297
Did you have a chance to hear S2? I don't want to sound ignorant especially since a lot of people relying on my reviews, but what am I supposed to hear as a result of these S2 measurement? As I mentioned in S2 thread, purely on the sound quality, S2 is just slightly behind W2, from functionality perspective it is ahead, and for iPhone users I would actually recommend S2 over W2. I do analyze and judge audio gear based on what and how I hear it, and really curious how would those measurements translate into the actual sound issues? I hear absolutely zero distortion, sound is very clean, testing it with Traillii and First Time cable, spent quite some time going back and forth between S1, S2, and W2.
I went back and read Wolf’s measurement again. Currently only in Chinese, links are below. He may post the English version on ASR soon.

https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/lotoo-paw-s2/

https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/lotoo-paw-s2-bug/

According to him, S2 has at least two major bugs now. One is the severe distortion around and above 12khz. The second one is huge distortion with many EQs, which seems to be due to not leaving enough headroom when implementing EQs and thus causing clipping.
 
Oct 29, 2021 at 12:41 AM Post #4,222 of 5,297
OK, so if you can't hear 12kHz cutoff (which can be understandable since adult might not have great hearing on the upper treble region due to natural aging), and how's that going to affect you giving S2 a great review or not? How is that going to affect the reader of your review who trust your review? I am not saying I want to see perfect measurement on every audio devices, I just saying this is a low level mistake that should have been ruled out during the debugging process by a simple measurement using an audio analyzer, but the fact is it didn't. What kind of audio manufacturer should be allowed not to debug its device before release? What kind of audio manufacturer who advertises its EQ ability but forgot to leave 6dB of headroom to avoid clipping, which is a common knowledge in the industry BTW? Again, I am not asking for perfection, I am just saying that if you want to publish output power on 10% THD+N (which other publish under 1%), at least you should have the ball to list down the detail. I am asking manufacturer to do some basic homework before releasing their devices, so they don't release products with obvious issue. WE ARE HUMAN, so I understand some of these issue might not be very audible or immediately obvious to our ears, at least not to everyone. But that's no excuse for manufacturer to skip basic measurement and let simple mistake passes by, perhaps hoping no one will hear it? I don't believe in either 'measuring over hearing' or 'hearing over measurement' - I believe they should compliment each other, and that's how we can keep ourselves honest in a hobby that is both important in subjective and objective experience at the same time.

Curious to find out from Lotoo if it was done intentionally by design. Did that site ran measurements on S1 as well? I just did a sine sweep with S1, S2, and W2, and I can hear the tone well into 17k-18k and even higher with W2 while it does attenuate down with S1 and S2 after 12k.

And this actually explains why I'm hearing W2 to be brighter and more revealing while S2 is more natural and smoother in tonality. So, maybe it's just part of the tuning. Who knows.
 
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Oct 29, 2021 at 12:41 AM Post #4,223 of 5,297
I went back and read Wolf’s measurement again. Currently only in Chinese, links are below. He may post the English version on ASR soon.

https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/lotoo-paw-s2/

https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/lotoo-paw-s2-bug/

According to him, S2 has at least two major bugs now. One is the severe distortion around and above 12khz. The second one is huge distortion with many EQs, which seems to be due to not leaving enough headroom when implementing EQs and thus causing clipping.

Ok that explains why in the latest firmware some eq settings were removed.
 
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Oct 29, 2021 at 12:52 AM Post #4,224 of 5,297
Curious to find out from Lotoo if it was done intentionally by design. Did that site ran measurements on S1 as well? I just did a sine sweep with S1, S2, and W2, and I can hear the tone well into 17k-18k and even higher with W2 while it does attenuate down with S1 and S2 after 12k.
Hmmm... I wonder if this treble attenuation explains why comparisons of the S1 vs W1/W2 describe warmer / lusher for the S1 sound signature and bright/analytical for W2/W2...
 
Oct 29, 2021 at 1:04 AM Post #4,225 of 5,297
Hmmm... I wonder if this treble attenuation explains why comparisons of the S1 vs W1/W2 describe warmer / lusher for the S1 sound signature and bright/analytical for W2/W2...

Yep, I actually edited my reply after you quoted it (you can read it above), and I mentioned exactly the same thing. It's just a tuning of their usb dac dongle, to be smoother and more natural. I guess, just like manufacturers who tune the sound sig of their IEMs, here dongles get tuned as well :)
 
Oct 29, 2021 at 1:21 AM Post #4,226 of 5,297
... Did that site ran measurements on S1 as well? ...

Yes, L7 Audio Lab (*run by a guy who is nicknamed Uncle Wolf in China) did and after the he complained that the S1 measurement is no where near as good as what Lotoo published spec (especially higher noise floor in the upper treble region), Lotoo actually responded elsewhere by saying the guy has no idea how to do proper measurement (*BTW, Uncle Wolf is a semi-retired audio engineer). Uncle Wolf then showed that the only way he can match Lotoo's own published spec is by cutting off everything above 12kHz in his own measurement...
 
Oct 30, 2021 at 4:06 PM Post #4,228 of 5,297
Hi guys, just a heads up- I picked up a used sr25 for cheap and I'm selling my W2. It's mint and also comes with the green leather case and magnetic holder which I never used. I'm just putting it out there so in hopes I don't have to list it or ebay it. I just prefer all in one solution.

I'm asking 210 US shipped. US only. Pm me if interested ☺
 
Oct 30, 2021 at 8:09 PM Post #4,229 of 5,297
Hi guys, just a heads up- I picked up a used sr25 for cheap and I'm selling my W2. It's mint and also comes with the green leather case and magnetic holder which I never used. I'm just putting it out there so in hopes I don't have to list it or ebay it. I just prefer all in one solution.

I'm asking 210 US shipped. US only. Pm me if interested ☺

I'm curious. What would you say of the difference in sound between these two!
 
Oct 30, 2021 at 8:14 PM Post #4,230 of 5,297
I'm curious. What would you say of the difference in sound between these two!

Honestly not much to my ears. Ak might be a bit deeper, and w2 might be a bit wider, and maybe ak might be a bit brighter. Twister or somebody that has more experience in volume matching could give a better answer.

Both sound really good to me. But actually I forgot how fiddly ak sr25 is with Amazon HD so might not sell W2. I mean these apps seem to always work better on a smartphone.
 
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