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Luxury and Precision - Crowdfunding Promotion on the L3 Digital Music Player, Available Soon!
Feb 5, 2016 at 1:33 AM Post #106 of 1,603
nudd said:
This thing is supposed to be optimized for IEMs and quite honestly I am actually quite glad its not going to be some over-powered noise monster.

165 mw more than enough power for IEMs.

I backed this specifically because I am only looking for a DAP for IEM use, and who know when the Geek Wave is going to turn up (if ever).

I don't think I have ever seen a dual DAC, full dual mono amped DAP at this price ...
Click to expand...


the opus#1 and dp-x1 is just a little bit pricier, but i stillchose the l3 in the end.
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 5:31 AM Post #108 of 1,603
hideouspride said:
  Quick numbers for y'all regarding power:
 
1.2V for 3.5mm, 2.4V for 2.5mm, using a 35 Ohm load.
Click to expand...

So we get the following numbers for the output power:
(3.5mm unbalanced): P=U*I;I=U/R, thus P=U*U/R=1.2*1.2/35=41 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
(2.5mm balanced): P=2.4*2.4/35=164 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
The output power seems to be quite low. HideousPride, are these numbers final?
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 5:39 AM Post #109 of 1,603
I've been interested in L & P for a long while, but I'm excluded due to the USA & Canada restriction. To get the box forwarded would cost me $60, and then I'll get hit with customs for another $60. No money saved and I've already got two Android DAPs on the way.
 
Bummer.
 
Enjoy everybody. I bet this one is going to be a beaut!
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 7:21 AM Post #112 of 1,603
whitigir said:
Wow, balanced out too ? Impressive. Seems this is single cirrus DAC. Will there be any model with dual DAC for balanced just like Onkyo DP-X1 ? But more organic fidelity please
biggrin.gif
. I like cirrus out of all DAC brands
Click to expand...


I think this one is already Dual-DAC, there is a picture of both DACs on the PCB over at indiegogo :wink:
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 8:27 AM Post #114 of 1,603
Will it drive in non-balaced mode Fostex X Massdrop TH-X00  to it's best (100db loud) ? 
 

[size=1.25rem]Specs[/size]

  1. Fostex x Massdrop
  2. Closed-back design
  3. 50 mm dynamic transducer
  4. Magnesium alloy construction
  5. Mahogany earcups, brilliant gloss finish
  6. Leatherette earpads, matte black
  7. Magnetic flux density: >1 tesla
  8. Impedance: 25 ohms
  9. Sensitivity: 94 dB/mW
  10. Maximum input: 1,800 mW
  11. Frequency response: 5–45,000 Hz
  12. 10 ft (3 m) thick, braided Y cable
  13. 1/4 in (6.3 mm) gold-coated stereo phone plug
  14. Weight, without cable: 12.3 oz (350 g)
  15. Weight, with cable: 17 oz (482 g)
 
Listening Loudness ​
Voltage Needed ​
Current Needed ​
Power Needed ​
Safe
85 dB SPL​
0.06 Vrms​
2.4 mA​
0.14 mW​
Moderate
100 dB SPL​
0.32 Vrms​
12.8 mA​
4.1 mW​
Fairly Loud
110 dB SPL​
1 Vrms​
40 mA​
40 mW​
Very Loud
115 dB SPL​
1.77 Vrms​
70.8 mA​
125.32 mW​
Painful
120 dB SPL​
3.16 Vrms​
126.4 mA​
399.42 mW​

 
 
I know, L3 delier    Power - 1.2V using 3.5mm output , but how much mW I get in the end, what is the mA capability of the device ? 
 
Is this data accurate ?
 
(3.5mm unbalanced): P=U*I;I=U/R, thus P=U*U/R=1.2*1.2/35=41 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
(2.5mm balanced): P=2.4*2.4/35=164 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 10:29 AM Post #115 of 1,603
Good to see discussion on the power capabilities of the L3, I'll share a little bit of insight as to the "why" of the situation.
 
If you let an engineer design and develop a product, they're always going to want best-in-class everything. Unfortunately, real world finances means everything has a cost attached to it. So as not to run wild with pricing (unless you're purposely designing something with no costs barred), you have to come up with a target audience and ask yourself the following question: 
 
"Who am I building this for? What is the use case?"
 
Specifically for the L3, the target audience is those who enjoy having great sounding music available to them no matter where they are, and who seek to enjoy it with IEMs/CIEMs or low-mid impedance headphones.
 
Then you tailor the product costs that go into it to optimize the experience for these people. Source internals and approach design in such a way so that you get the best "bang for your buck", so to speak.
 
In doing so, you can create a really great DAP for a specific use case that speaks to the large majority of individuals that are interested in purchasing it at a price that's intriguing and market competitive.
 
Would the L3 be a good pairing with something like the Senn HD 800s? No, probably not. But then again, the best sounding setups I've heard with the HD 800 are desktop setups specifically designed to drive high-impedance headphones that synergize well with the traits the HD 800 has (bright, great soundstage, detail). There's not a DAP or portable stack on the market that I think really compares, even if they are designed to output a ton of power. Specs don't directly translate to optimized implementation.
 
Now, if you're looking to use it with IEMs/CIEMs or headphones that aren't 300-600 Ohm behemoths, then ah!
 
You're the target audience the product was designed for.
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 10:40 AM Post #116 of 1,603
alexroma said:
  Will it drive in non-balaced mode Fostex X Massdrop TH-X00  to it's best (100db loud) ? 
 

[size=1.25rem]Specs[/size]

  1. Fostex x Massdrop
  2. Closed-back design
  3. 50 mm dynamic transducer
  4. Magnesium alloy construction
  5. Mahogany earcups, brilliant gloss finish
  6. Leatherette earpads, matte black
  7. Magnetic flux density: >1 tesla
  8. Impedance: 25 ohms
  9. Sensitivity: 94 dB/mW
  10. Maximum input: 1,800 mW
  11. Frequency response: 5–45,000 Hz
  12. 10 ft (3 m) thick, braided Y cable
  13. 1/4 in (6.3 mm) gold-coated stereo phone plug
  14. Weight, without cable: 12.3 oz (350 g)
  15. Weight, with cable: 17 oz (482 g)
 
Listening Loudness ​
Voltage Needed ​
Current Needed ​
Power Needed ​
Safe
85 dB SPL​
0.06 Vrms​
2.4 mA​
0.14 mW​
Moderate
100 dB SPL​
0.32 Vrms​
12.8 mA​
4.1 mW​
Fairly Loud
110 dB SPL​
1 Vrms​
40 mA​
40 mW​
Very Loud
115 dB SPL​
1.77 Vrms​
70.8 mA​
125.32 mW​
Painful
120 dB SPL​
3.16 Vrms​
126.4 mA​
399.42 mW​

 
 
I know, L3 delier    Power - 1.2V using 3.5mm output , but how much mW I get in the end, what is the mA capability of the device ? 
 
Is this data accurate ?
 
(3.5mm unbalanced): P=U*I;I=U/R, thus P=U*U/R=1.2*1.2/35=41 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
(2.5mm balanced): P=2.4*2.4/35=164 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
Click to expand...

Those are my estimations based on the data provided earlier. The mW value you get for a certain impedance (35 Ohm for the data provided) is determined by the voltage swing, 1.2 V or 2.4 V for the balanced out, and the impedance itself. Those are the numbers you need to know to estimate (approximately) the amplifier output power for a certain impedance load. But the output power won't give you the whole picture.
You also have to know the maximum output current the amplifier is capable of producing, to determine if it's at least able to drive certain headphones to a certain SPL (ability to achieve certain loudness level on some headphones does not mean the amplifier's ability to drive the headphones adequately and in full). For example, you have two headphone sets both with approximately 40 Ohm impedance (H1, H2), which require about 2 mW input power for achieving 90 sound pressure level (loudness), and an amplifier with 1.2 V voltage swing (and 100 mW output power for 40 Ohm load) produced with 40 Ohm load. Notwithstanding the fact that the amplifier has 100 mW output power (which is 50 times higher than the 2 mW) and H1 and H2 headphones both require only 2 mW to achieve 90 SPL, the amplifier may not be able to drive one of the headphones to 90 SPL. Why? That's right, the headphones the amplifier is incapable to drive are more current hungry, thus they may need less voltage but more current while the other ones need less current and more voltage for 90 SPL. As I understand, the limited output current (and actually limited output power produced at a certain load) is in major cases the cause of amplifier's incapability to drive certain headphones, because the voltage swing values provided by DAP amplifiers are enough for the most headphones. Thus, the limitation of the output current (at sufficient voltage swing) may cause the total output power limitation that prevents the amplifier from driving certain headphones.  
As I judge from my experience with my Hifiman HE 500 and ibasso DX 90, there is a very low if any probability of L3 driving Fostex X00 even to 90 SPL via either out (even the more powerful balanced one). And again the total loudness level achieved does not mean the adequate control of the headphones being driven.   
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 11:02 AM Post #117 of 1,603
bellyworshipper said:
Those are my estimations based on the data provided earlier. The mW value you get for a certain impedance (35 Ohm for the data provided) is determined by the voltage swing, 1.2 V or 2.4 V for the balanced out, and the impedance itself. Those are the numbers you need to know to estimate (approximately) the amplifier output power for a certain impedance load. But the output power won't give you the whole picture.
You also have to know the maximum output current the amplifier is capable of producing, to determine if it's at least able to drive certain headphones to a certain SPL (ability to achieve certain loudness level on some headphones does not mean the amplifier's ability to drive the headphones adequately and in full). For example, you have two headphone sets both with 40 Ohm impedance (H1, H2), which require about 2 mW input power for achieving 90 sound pressure level (loudness), and an amplifier with 1.2 V voltage swing (and 100 mW output power for 40 Ohm load) produced with 40 Ohm load. Notwithstanding the fact that the amplifier has 100 mW output power (which is 50 times higher than the 2 mW) and H1 and H2 headphones both require only 2 mW to achieve 90 SPL, the amplifier may not be able to drive one of the headphones to 90 SPL. Why? That's right, the headphones the amplifier is incapable to drive are more current hungry, thus they need less voltage but more current while the other ones need less current and more voltage for 90 SPL. As I understand, the limited output current is in major cases the cause of amplifier's incapability to drive certain headphones, because the voltage swing values provided by DAP amplifiers are enough for the most headphones. 
As I judge from my experience with my Hifiman HE 500 and ibasso DX 90, there is a very low if any probability of L3 driving Fostex X00 even to 90 SPL via either out (even the more powerful balanced one). And again the total loudness level achieved does not mean the adequate control of the headphones being driven.   
Click to expand...


Very true ! Those with lower impedance and higher sensitivity headphones need more current to drive properly. Most importantly would be the current swing and voltage swing. However, current swing is very hard to feed vs voltage swing. Fostex is known to have low impedance and hence seeking more current authority.

I remember back in school day, teachers told me voltage is like the volumetric of a river, and current is the...power of the river flow. Having more current - better in most situations, where as having more volume with a low current flow is like a "dead pond", once it is depleted, it is gone.
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 11:18 AM Post #118 of 1,603
whitigir said:
Very true ! Those with lower impedance and higher sensitivity headphones need more current to drive properly.
Click to expand...

I would rather say that lower impedance and higher sensitivity headphones need less voltage and less current:) For the DAPs (as for the amplifiers in general), however, driving very low impedance (less than 16 Ohm) earphones is sometimes more troublesome than driving high impedance (50 Ohm and higher) earphones. 
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 11:46 AM Post #119 of 1,603
Somehow Onkyo DP-X1 was not able to make my TH900 shines the way it should, my Zx2 did. The power differences from both on paper was by miles...lol. I do realize that Zx2 packs a lot of capacitors and even a SuperCapacitor ....so it has plenty of current.

However, I am not any audio electrical engineering....so I couldn't tell why ? Either I did not like the Onkyo or Fostex loves current...not sure
 
Feb 5, 2016 at 12:45 PM Post #120 of 1,603
Originally Posted by AlexRoma /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Will it drive in non-balaced mode Fostex X Massdrop TH-X00  to it's best (100db loud) ? 
 
I know, L3 delier    Power - 1.2V using 3.5mm output , but how much mW I get in the end, what is the mA capability of the device ? 
 
Is this data accurate ?
 
(3.5mm unbalanced): P=U*I;I=U/R, thus P=U*U/R=1.2*1.2/35=41 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
(2.5mm balanced): P=2.4*2.4/35=164 mW (theoretical maximum, the actual power is lower)
Click to expand...

 
When I pair TH-X00 with my L5 Pro, I use medium gain(roughly 2V?) with half of the volume(30/60).
 
The balanced output should easily drive TH-X00 to "loud" level. Singled ended should be able to drive it loud when turning the volume level up.
 
But I don't think loudness really show if a headphone is well-driven.
 
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