[squee116]

OK I misunderstood your desired intent.If I am understanding you correctly your goal is to improve SQ by eliminating the resistor altogether?If thats the case I can add that I have an Audeze/ZMF cable terminated in speaker wires and while the sound to my ears is a bit cleaner vs HP jack,the difference is a long shot from night and day,and if given the option to get that extra 2% by altering the innards of a vintage jewel like your 1900,I'd pass.YMMV.

To be clear if the improvement was vast Id not think twice about it,but on my gear,to my ears the difference was quite minimal.

It's two-fold. You're right, night-day variance shouldn't be expected, but cleaner. Secondly, because the output impedance is lower (no resistor in-line lowers output impedance) you can pair a wider range of headphones with the unit.

 

[r2muchstuff]

Somewhat in conjunction with the thrust of this thread, I've found a guy at Northridge Electronics who's willing to convert vintage receivers and amps to lower the gain stage and remove the stepdown resistor to the headphone output so that the output impedance goes down, and allows a wider ranger of headphones to be used on vintage gear. I'm in talks to have him do that on my MAC 1900.

OK I misunderstood your desired intent.If I am understanding you correctly your goal is to improve SQ by eliminating the resistor altogether?If thats the case I can add that I have an Audeze/ZMF cable terminated in speaker wires and while the sound to my ears is a bit cleaner vs HP jack,the difference is a long shot from night and day,and if given the option to get that extra 2% by altering the innards of a vintage jewel like your 1900,I'd pass.YMMV.

To be clear if the improvement was vast Id not think twice about it,but on my gear,to my ears the difference was quite minimal.

If eliminating the resistor is the goal then speaker taps are the same thing and is not modifying the amp.
However, if keeping resistors on the HP out is the goal then the choice of what value is important. 4 ohm replacements for phones down to nominal 32 rating. 36 ohm replacements if phones are 300 nominal rated and so forth.
I have vintage amps with 120 to 330 ohm HP outs, never researched the Mac in question, so do not know what is there from factory.
600 ohm Beyerdynamic and my Oppo PM3 are not much affected by the resistors, 32 ohm Grado very much so. Surprised to find that 300 ohm Synnheiser are affected.
Decided it is just simpler to use the Beyerdynamic phones with my many vintage amps.

I may have one amp/receiver modified, maybe the Pioneer SA 9800 currently in my main listening stack. Most likely go to 4 - 8 ohms if I do.

JMTC, YMMV &
Ain't this stuff fun

***Keep in mind that old amps generally do not like less than a 4 ohm load***

 

[squee116]

If eliminating the resistor is the goal then speaker taps are the same thing and is not modifying the amp.
However, if keeping resistors on the HP out is the goal then the choice of what value is important. 4 ohm replacements for phones down to nominal 32 rating. 36 ohm replacements if phones are 300 nominal rated and so forth.
I have vintage amps with 120 to 330 ohm HP outs, never researched the Mac in question, so do not know what is there from factory.
600 ohm Beyerdynamic and my Oppo PM3 are not much affected by the resistors, 32 ohm Grado very much so. Surprised to find that 300 ohm Synnheiser are affected.
Decided it is just simpler to use the Beyerdynamic phones with my many vintage amps.

I may have one amp/receiver modified, maybe the Pioneer SA 9800 currently in my main listening stack. Most likely go to 4 - 8 ohms if I do.

JMTC, YMMV &
Ain't this stuff fun

***Keep in mind that old amps generally do not like less than a 4 ohm load***

Speaker outs without modification have the slight problem of possibly providing too much volume, hence modifying the gain.

 

[r2muchstuff]

Speaker outs without modification have the slight problem of possibly providing too much volume, hence modifying the gain.

Most HP outs on vintage amps are fed directly from the amp section, just like the speakers. Therefore, the resistors added to the HP out provided a safety function for the headphones and ears.

Vintage phones were generally around 300 ohms, think Koss Pro AA and copies, and nobody really noticed (or was even aware of) the resistor effects.
Today, we know better

More recent amps use op amps for the headphone outs, providing a HP friendly connection. However, we are no longer listening to the amp itself.

IMHO

 

[GreenNeedle]

aimed at Monsterzero but open to anyone else to answer. Silly question from an obviously inexperienced chap it maybe.

I am looking at the Senn HD 6xx and the 58x on massdrop and wondering if either are worth going for in terms of what I like from my music.

As stated in this thread I prefer the LP to the MP and some/many who experience all 3 ( yes my MP "may" not be performing to its potential, who knows) say the Mp is the best sounding..........but I like the LP and it is about the level of my perfection (at the moment.)

I'm the kind of guy that gets a modern setup and sticks it on straight. Not into equalising. My AV is on straight all the time unless on an SD TV music channel where I use the "Music Enhancer" to suck some juice into the compressed input. On my listening gear (old stuff) I am a +1 bass, +2 treble kind of listener. So would either of these headphones suit what I like?

I love the sextett LP sound. I am just looking for a sound similar that I can sit listening to instead of wanting to stand No joke, I put those headphones on and I stand like I am at a pub gig.

 

[Monsterzero]

The Sextetts have a quite unique forward mid sound. The only other headphones Ive heard that are similar in regard to how the mids are portrayed are the ATH AD2000 and some Grados. Grados have a lot of spikes in the upper mids,and are uncomfortable.

AD2000s are extremely rare,and have a bit of a clamp to them,similar to HD6xx. Im selling my pair of AD2000s(non-X-version) but its probably more than you want to spend. Further theyre lower impedance than the Sextetts,so im not sure how they would sound out of your receiver.

 

[GreenNeedle]

The Sextetts have a quite unique forward mid sound. The only other headphones Ive heard that are similar in regard to how the mids are portrayed are the ATH AD2000 and some Grados. Grados have a lot of spikes in the upper mids,and are uncomfortable.

AD2000s are extremely rare,and have a bit of a clamp to them,similar to HD6xx. Im selling my pair of AD2000s(non-X-version) but its probably more than you want to spend. Further theyre lower impedance than the Sextetts,so im not sure how they would sound out of your receiver.

I think the ADHs would be well out of my range and possibly too similar to the sextetts to warrant having really.

The quandry I have is that I have recently reset both my (preferred) needles, sorry stylus', to the exact overhang the KD-1033 booklet and online posters state. Namely 50mm from the back of the rubber washer to the stylus. I had been using 2 point protractors and it did sound good but now I have ignored the protractor and just put the cart square in the headshell at that exact measurement it was a revelation. Of course each record prefers either the Shure M75ED or the Ortofon FF15XE over the other, although since resetting the stylus' on my 2 headshells I have been veering more and more towards the Ortofon when before I was preferring the Shure for most records.

So picking 2 records that gave me goosepimples through a whole week of listening to records through the Trio KR-3600 into my Mordaunt Short Aviano 2 speakers, mostly with bass set to +2 and treble set to +4
Radiohead - OK computer. (Double album 33rpm version) It's rock. I expected the Shure to be the stylus for this and have been using the Shure previously but I tried it with the Ortofon and WOW. Sounds absolutely sensational. Listened to it start to finish 4 times in a row until I thought lets try out another of my favs.

Ride - Going Blank again (double album 45rpm version) - Not digging this with the Ortofon so put the Shure on and BOOM. Sounded incredible.

So I put on the Sextetts after a while. I know headphones do sound a lot different to speakers but something was lacking. Still good but hard to state but the sound is quite narrow compared to how wide the speakers sound. The difference being much more than before. Still the right amount of bass for me, probably lean to other people (The LP version) and great clarity through lows, mids and highs but narrow (is this soundstage?)

So I'm looking for something not too expensive but with great quality bottom to top. For me the MP has too much bass, obscuring the mids for my ears. So the same balance of bass, mids, trebles as the LP but a wider sound.

Maybe I wanting something that headphones aren't really capable of? Replicating what a decent* pair of speakers can do?

Meaning decent as in £400 RRP pair of speakers are way better than standard stock hi-fi ones or some cheap budget speakers (<£100)

 

[Monsterzero]

Maybe I wanting something that headphones aren't really capable of? Replicating what a decent* pair of speakers can do?

Headphones wont sound like speakers. If thats your goal,you will most likely be disappointed even after spending several thousand dollars on a TOTL electrostat,like the STAX 007 or 009,and then a BHSE energizer. That set up is as close to speakers as Ive heard from headphones. Apparently the Raal SRH1A sound pretty good as well,but those retail for $3500.00 and require at least a 100wpc speaker amp to drive them.

On the flip side,speakers cannot do what headphones do either. Theyre two very different and distinct ways to enjoy music.

My .02

 

[GreenNeedle]

Headphones wont sound like speakers. If thats your goal,you will most likely be disappointed even after spending several thousand dollars on a TOTL electrostat,like the STAX 007 or 009,and then a BHSE energizer. That set up is as close to speakers as Ive heard from headphones. Apparently the Raal SRH1A sound pretty good as well,but those retail for $3500.00 and require at least a 100wpc speaker amp to drive them.

On the flip side,speakers cannot do what headphones do either. Theyre two very different and distinct ways to enjoy music.

My .02

I kinda figured what you confirm there. However I am researching I had my finger on the trigger on the "buy" button last night on the Sennheiser HD58x on massdrop. Stopped myself and kept on researching and later had my finger on the trigger for the Hifiman HE4xx but again pulled back. Will keep researching. I think I need to try out some phones in this price range (£150ish) that will sell close to their new price if they aren't suitable. I'm not overly keen on buying second hand when they are available new.

Not dissing the Sextetts. I still love them and will be keeping the LP. Going to put the stock pads back on the MPs and sell them though.

 

[GreenNeedle]

I've done a little test. Nothing in depth and not planned, just listening to parts of the Stone Roses debut album through the Kenwood Vintage SR using headphones that the family have in the house. Not including bargain basement headphones here just reputable ones.

So firstly I tested my eldest son's Sennheiser Momentum over ear 1.0s. Probably the sexiest looking of all the headphones here. They haven't had that much use from new it seems although they were bought unsealed sealed about 3 months ago. Wasn't very long at all before I was thinking something was a bit off. Just didn't sound that great to me.

So borrowed my youngest Son's Sennheiser HD451. These sound really good. Much better everything. Clearer (and more) bass, much clearer mids and much clearer highs.

So I put on the Sextett LPs and now we are on a different level. The bass is much more controlled, there but not in your face. The mids and highs exceptional. Night and day difference despite the 451 sounding pretty good.

and for a tickle I put the old Sennheiser HD 438s that my wife uses to watch TV on her laptop. These are much quieter than the others and while they are supposedly a closed back they are really an open with some plastic spoke design over some of the grille. They are pretty weak and pretty trebly. They sound better just covering the cups without pressing. The sound just gains width in that scenario. Pads could do with changing on these as they are flattening out a little.

So I have proved to myself how good the Sextett LP is but surprisingly how good the HD451 is. Not a close second but without testing (I will) from memory I would say they match the Sextett MP I have.

What is so surprising is how bad the Momentum 1.0 is. I didn't have any problems with comfort that is suggested on the net. Just the sound. It is terrible compared to the others.

Results of this test in terms of marks out of 10 compared with the Sextett being the mark of 10 and a cheap from the budget shop pair of headphones being 1:

HD451 RRP when first released circa £80? Bought brand new unused from an ebay reseller for £35 8/10
HD438 RRP when first released £120? Bought about 6 years ago for £40 used and could do with new pads 5/10
Momentum 1.0 when first released £250? Bought unsealed with minimal use from an ebay reseller for £70 4/10

I'm not so surprised that the Sextett beats the Momentum. We are talking a headphone that is revered here but for the cheapo HD438 which you can pick up brand new all over the place in the £40-£50 region to be so much better than the Momentum is ridiculous.

If I had to fit the Sextett MP in there at the moment I think it would be somewhere close to the 451. Will need to test but the HD451 did sound quite good to me. Son loves it too

EDIT: Am going to get those momentums wired up to some sound for a day or 2 as I don;t think previous owner gave them much time at all and so may not be burned in yet.

 

[GreenNeedle]

After burning the Momentum over night plugged into my amp on FM stereo (clamped around a leather band to block the noise) seems I have done these a dis-service. They are nowhere near as good as the Sextett LP but they have improved and sound exceptional on UK dance / Electro music. I can only assume that the previous owner bought them, didn't like the sound and hung on to them for a while before selling them.

However as I have read from some others they really really struggle when the mids are overloaded. By that I mean when some music has layer upon layer in a similar range. The Sextett manages this very well IMO.

A good example is Depeche Mode - In your room. It is a good test as there are delays and echoes going left to right across all ranges from the start including bass notes. The song starts with a higher bass line and low mid keyboard and both phones handle this very well. Vocals come in and another layer of mids come in and again both phones do their job very well.

From this point the drums kick in which both phones handle excellently although you can now tell the Sextett is much better with the high hats and upper trebles. The higher mids sound better on the Sextett but not as big a gap on the mids as the treble.

However from the second verse quite a few more layers are added including extra drums, some guitars, more swirling keyboards and more echo/reverb on the voice. This is where the Momentums fall apart. They just cannot handle so many different layers in that upper mid range and can get a little grating whereas the Sextett is separating each layer from each other nicely.

A key sign (to me) of the difference here is that because the Sextett is doing such a good job you feel like turning it up because the smoothness tricks you into thinking it is quieter whereas the Momentum makes you want to turn it down a little. They both sound about the same volume as I start my "test."

This is through my amp. I can confirm however as another poster in the Momentum impressions thread states that the plain cable is noticeably better than the one with the remote and bendy angled jack on it.

And 3 months after buying these my son has sat all afternoon listening to them. He was prefering to use his Skullcandy gaming over ears but is now wowing (not surprisingly) at the Sennheisers being way better.

I'm not sure that the Momentums sound better than the 451 though and if they do it is marginal. The 451s are surprisingly good for the price you can get them for.

In terms of level, if the best headphones in the world are a Bugatti Veyron and the Sextetts are a standard Ferrari (yes they are that good) then the Momentum / 451 are not a Mercedes AMG. They are 2 steps down from the Sextett in the Mercedes C class region. The HD438 is Golf GTI and the Skullcandy a standard golf. Off the shelf standard cheapo headphones being like used Fiat Puntos.

 

[GreenNeedle]

Just to update this thread. I ended up buying some used Senn HD580 Precision. Stock pads, band padding, grills and cables. I replaced the headband padding because it had flattened to nothing. The pads are still nice and puffed but may replace them too. No real urge to do the mods and replace grills/cables because they really do sound good.

I now have 2 very decent headphones to be used for music that suits each. The Sextetts struggle with Marillion's newer stuff. There is just far too much going on for them to handle and separate whereas the HD580 sounds great for this. The Sextett just rules when there are less instruments though even when it is shoegaze stuff.

Thanks for the help on this