[TyTB]

Hello again everyone, welcome back.

I decided to make this a separate follow-up thread, as my previous thread got a ton of replies and community discussion. Thank you to the community, it was a fun thread, and your thoughts were very useful. I apologize if making this a separate thread is against Head-Fi customs.

So, story time. I headed down to my city's premier audio store, Bay-Bloor Radio, for a final round of testing. I brought my Sennheiser 6XX's with me, and compared them to the HD 800s, and a headphone that was recommended to me by one of the employees working there, after we discussed what I was looking for in my auditory experience: The Meze 109 Pro.

To make sure I wasn't bottlenecking myself with file quality, bitrate, DAC output, or amplification power, I used the store's EverSolo DMP-A6 DAC Streamer (Roughly $1000), and the Sennheiser HDV 820 Amp (Roughly $3000) to power the headphones, streaming .flac files from Tidal.

My initial thoughts were as follows:​

• I was glad to hear that my previous testing at the other store was NOT amp-limited, as the differences between the headphones were consistent at both stores.
• The HD800s and Meze were clearer than my HD6XX. I still lack the ability to perfectly articulate the sensation, but it was as if there was a thin wall, or a sheet, or a veil eyes between me and the singer when listening to the HD6XXs, and this veil was lifted when listening to the HD800s and Meze, so I could hear the singer with all the clarity present in their voice. Bass and Treble, however, weren't cleared up by as much as the midtones/vocal frequencies, but that might just be my perception, since it's easier to tell when a word is pronounced clearly, than an arbitrary sound in an instrumental. Overall, though, the 6XX's sound more "compressed" or "condensed" or "muffled" than the HD800s and Meze.
• The Meze had a more U-shaped signature, with much more bass and subbase than the HD800s, and a touch more treble, though this was only noticed on songs that actually HAD deep base or high treble. The flip side of this, of course, is that it made the midtones/vocal frequencies fall back, relatively, which made singers sound quieter and farther away. This made clean, clearly-recorded vocal tracks worse-sounding to my ears, but made hip-hop, and other punchy, base-focused music much more impactful and entertaining to listen to.
• The HD800s did in fact feel very very open, but what defines openness is apparently different than what I had come to expect from reading reviews. It wasn't a wider soundstage than the Meze, and, to my ears, it wasn't really much wider than my HD6XX's, either. Instruments sounded just as close to my ears, or just as far within my head on all of the headphones. However, the HD800s felt like the sound exerted less pressure on my ears. It felt less stuffed, less compressed. It felt more breathable, more airy, and so I took this to update my understanding of what people mean when they say "open". This certainly wasn't what I was looking for, but it was a pleasant sensation, to have less pressure exerted on the ears. It made listening more comfortable, and less tiring. Maybe this is just me, though, as I do have mild tinnitus.

I then did some further testing:​

• I tried EQ-ing some bass into the HD800s to see if I could get the same fun punchiness of the Meze. However, since I had never used the EverSolo before, and was unfamiliar with it's interface, I couldn't tell if the EQ just wasn't working, or if I just suck at EQ-ing, as I admittedly have no experience with EQ. However, I boosted all frequencies from 31 to 250 by more than 10 dB, and boosted 4000 to 16000 by the same amounts, creating a strong U-shaped profile in both Parametric and Graphic EQ modes, but couldn't hear much of any difference, even in songs which clearly were playing sounds in those frequency ranges. No matter what, I couldn't add much of any bass to the HD800s.
• I also tried playing all of these headphones through a tube amp, the Cayin HA-1A Mk II amp (roughly $1000). I couldn't tell a difference between it and the Sennheiser amp, but I also wasn't able to directly A/B test the two amps, so.
• I tried listening to some of the tracks recommended in this reddit post, and could not, for the life of me, identify any of the things the post's writer talks about. I'm listening to the 9th symphony, and the writer talks about evaluating how far out of my head the sound seems to come from, up to a maximum of .4 head widths, meanwhile, every single headphone sounds the same, with the instruments being located squarely WITHIN my head. Hell, they're not even REACHING the tips of my ears, let alone .4 head widths OUTSIDE of them.
  • And I mean, really, we're talking about the HD800s, on a sennheiser-brand amp, receiving $3000 worth of amplification, playing .flac files from a $1000 DAC unit, playing CLASSICAL SYMPHONIC MUSIC. If there were EVER A TIME you'd expect the HD800s to shine, THIS IS IT. This is the HD800s' supposed wheelhouse, and yet, not a single instrument felt like it was external to my head. It all sat well within. Separation maxed out at maybe an inch or two of separation. Granted, there was some imaging, I could hear instruments coming from different directions, but absolutely no staging width, no depth, no resolution differences between headphones, etc.
  • When I posted this whole post to Reddit, yesterday, many people seem to think that it's a toss-up as to whether a human is able to hear soundstage width or not. Many people say they agree, many others say they can easily feel the instruments coming from outside their head. Seems to have more to do with genetics and ear anatomy than headphones.
• The HD800s were comfortable in the sense of the earcups being massive and open, and distributing their load across a huge pad, but the Meze were comfortable in the sense of having very plush earpads. The HD800's felt like rocks by comparison. TBH, I'm surprised the HD800s earpads are only like 1/4" thick. It seems a little nonsensical to me. I asked the store about it too and they said the pads were fairly new, that's just what they're like. The headstrap of the Meze was far more comfortable than the HD800s, though.
• I made sure to listen a bunch of different tracks, from many different groups and genres. Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, Glass Animals, etc., and many individual songs of different types. A-OK, Achilles Come Down, Cane Suga, Lavender Haze, Claire De Lune, Moonlight Sonata, Feel Good Inc., She Knows, HOME - Resonance, Home by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes, Goliath by Woodkid, Take me Home Country Roads, etc. Many songs were well-produced, with instrument separation and a wide sound stage, and many were "normally" produced, with no separation. In only THREE SONGS out of 30+, though, did it feel like an instrument was coming from just outside my ear - A song from Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Most importantly, though, the sound stage width was the same in all of the headphones, from my low 6XX's, to the HD800s. Yes, the HD800s were more "open", but all instruments were located in exactly the same place as my 6XX's, and just as far within/outside my head.
• I made this little graphic to illustrate what I felt, on all the headphones I've tested so far. On well-produced music, like Fleetwood Mac, I can hear the drums, the lead guitar, the bass guitar, and the singers, all coming from different locations, but these locations are maybe an inch apart in space, and are still located firmly within the confines of my head. On poorly-produced stuff, it was all dead-center in my head, No matter which headphone.
• 

Closing Thoughts and Rankings:​

• I have now tested several headphones, and from what I can tell, the Hifiman Arya Organics, Sennheiser HD800s, Meze 109 Pro, and Denon AH-D5200 are all clearer than my HD6XX's, making the 6XX's sound condensed, or muffled, or veiled by comparison. The Hifiman Edition XS I tried did NOT sound any clearer or less veiled.
  • With some headphones like the Arya Organics and Meze 109 Pro, which had better bass representation, I could actually hear how the bass was clearer, too. Less muddied, and it was also much stronger, giving me that "standing-in-front-of-a-subwoofer" kind of rumbling of my body, but only in two songs that actually HAD that kind of sub-base, and only when the volume was cranked way up, above where I'd actually listen.
• The HD 800s' and Arya Organics felt equally open, assuming we take "open" to mean "very little feeling of pressure on the ear and the eardrum", and NOT to mean "instruments sound far apart".
  • The Arya Organics had better bass, but, to my ears, nearly identical uppers/treble as the HD800s. The only difference was in the midtones, where singer's voices seemed to be a bit more forward/louder in the HD800s than the Arya Organics. Both were equally clear, though, and there were no differences in resolution, staging, detail, imaging, etc. The Organics are just the HD800s with bass.
• The HD 800s' and the Meze 109 Pro are a similar story, in that the Meze 109 Pro had much better bass and sub-base. However, it also had more treble, which the Arya Organic didn't. This made music sound not just bassier, but warmer. However, this meant that the midtones / vocal frequencies sounded even FARTHER back relative to the HD800s than the Arya Organics were.
  • To phrase it more simply:
    • Strong Base | Meze 109 & Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Weak Base
    • Weak, Receeded Mids | Meze 109 | Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Strong, Forward Mids
    • Normal Treble | Senn HD800s & Arya Organics | Meze 109 | Strong Treble
• The other headphones I tested (Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Audeze LCD-X) either did not sound any clearer than my HD 6XX's, or, in the case of the Audeze, had way too U-shaped of a profile to be useable for music with singing.
• The new Sennheiser HD 660 s sound clearer than the 6XX, but only in the midtones and uppers. The bass is just as weak and just as muddied.
• The Arya Organics were the most comfortable on my head. Very light, very plush, and very big, meaning the clamping pressure is distributed across a large area. The Meze 109 and Senn HD800s were both equally comfortable, but in different ways. The HD800s feel very hard, because their pads are paper-thin, but because the cups are SO big, the load dispersion is huge. The meze, on the other hand, were the smallest cups of them all, but the very plush cushions felt comfortable, and the head strap is absolutely superb.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics are much better looking than the HD800s, to me.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics have MUCH better build quality than the HD800s, when talking about the actual body of the headphone itself. The headband, ear cups, etc. The Senn HD800s feel like cheap plasticky garbage compared to the metal + wood bodies of the Meze and Arya. I have no idea how their actual drivers measure up against the Senn's in terms of reliability, but we all know the Senn is bulletproof.

Most Importantly of All:​

Absolutely NONE of these hi-fi headphones, or the $4000 of equipment they ran on, have transformed my auditory experience the way I was hoping. I was hoping for a transformation similar to the one I experienced when first stepping up from $50 childhood headphones to my HD6XX's, but scaled down slightly because of diminishing returns. I was hoping to hear new instruments and sounds I never knew were in a song, to head true soundstage separation and to have instruments feel like they're outside my head.

What I got instead was AT. MOST. A 10% improvement. At most. And only if I focus on it. And only on songs that are well-produced enough for it to even matter. Things are a BIT clearer. The bass is stronger in some of the headphones. Instrumentals are a bit snappier. That's really it. Music still sounds the same, such a tiny bit cleaner, and clearer. The openness of the HD800s feels nice on the ears, though, in terms of reduced intracranial pressure.

Where I'm at now, and how you can help:​

I am completely friggen lost, that's where I am.

Speaking frankly, I am a very broke individual. I have been trying to save money for this headphone purchase for the past Six Years. This has always meant that the HD800s sat squarely in the realm of "absolutely impossible" to purchase. I simply would never own a pair of HD800s. I came to terms with that.

Then I found out that they're on sale for $1599, a price that has never been seen before by any of the staff working at Bay Bloor Radio, in the 10+ years they've been working there. And the sale is ending in TWO DAYS.

I can theoretically afford $1599. It's a stretch, but it's worth it, IF IT'S WORTH IT.

What I REALLY can't afford is to buy a half-measure now, only to buy a more expensive headphone later, anyway. I want my personal summit product, because I expect to keep it for the next 10+ years at a minimum. I am NOT a gearhead. I will NOT be buying another pair of headphones after this, for at least 10 years.

That said, money is still money, and diminishing returns are real, so the way I look at my options is like this:

1. Arya Organics. They sound just as clear and resolving and open as the HD800s, but have better bass, which is the only thing the HD800s lack. This makes them, in a sense, the HD800s, but perfected. They're also supremely comfortable on my head, and I absolutely LOVE the way they look. They are also fairly priced, at $1299. The major concern, though, is with their reliability. I spoke to a Hifiman employee and he told me that they recently upgraded all of their manufacturing equipment at their factory in Guangzhou, and that the Arya Organics were the first headphones off this modernized and improved machinery, and that, in Hifiman's own opinion, the drivers are much better-built and more reliable than Hifiman's previous products, even when compared to their higher-tiered headphones like the HE1000se.
2. The Meze 109 Pro. This was a surprise find for me, as I had never heard of them before I went into the store. They are the most "fun" of the three headphones, as they got great bass, AND warm treble. Makes hip-hop and pop and rock real fun to listen to. However, voices and midtones sound very far back compared to the HD800s. They are less open than the Organics or the HD800s, but are still more open than the 6XX. They are just as clear as the Organics and the HD800s. They are not as comfortable as the Organics, but are much more plush than the HD800s. The headstrap is superb, and they look Gorgeous too. The walnut cups really pleases the woodworker in me. They are also the cheapest, at $1099. Reliability is unknown.
3. The HD800s. Very open, very low-pressure on the eardrums. Great clarity and detail, but I can't say they're any more detailed than the other two. The thing is, because they ARE more neutral, and don't have as much of the U-shape to their presentation, voices sound much more forward and louder, and this loudness makes them easier to hear, which is easily confused for greater clarity. I don't doubt that these are the best for classical music, but for most other genres, the utter lack of bass makes music feel sterile and hollow by comparison. I keep finding myself drawn to the warmth and bass of the other two by comparison, but only when listening to the genres of music that need it. The fit and finish is atrocious. The HD800s look like the same class of product as my HD6XX's. All plastic, no fine details other than the silver mesh around the earcups, etc. Looks like a $300 headphone, visually, but the reliability of the drivers themselves are well-established as being absolutely bulletproof.

So... what would you guys choose?​

• Reliable, Clear, Open, and Precise, but ugly and bass-weak HD800s for $1599
• Beautiful, Comfortable, Clear, Open, and Bassy but possibly unreliable Arya Organics for $1299
• Beautiful, Clear, Bassy, and Warm-trebled, but vocally-recessed Meze 109 Pro's for $1099
• The Unknown: Hifiman HE1000 Stealth for $1399

Yeah, that's right, I threw a new headphone in right at the end. The Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. Per Hifiman's sales reps and also a store owner, the HE1000 is more directly comparable to the HD800s than the Arya Organics are, as they have a more neutral sound signature like the HD800s, and are "smoother" in the treble than the Organics. However, they were produced on Hifiman's original equipment, and so they are likely not as reliable as the newer Arya Organics, which were made on the new equipment. I have not, and will not be able to test the HE1000's anywhere.

Anyways, I'm fried, and overwhelmed. Thoughts are welcome.

Thank you for reading!

 

[moneypit]

Plastic does not equate to poor build quality. If you want a headphone that will last forever, I doubt you will find anyone that will pick another brand over Sennheiser. My very-plastic HD580s from 2004 are still basically new (with replacement cups/headband cushion). I don't have the same confidence in my recent Focal purchase but I will enjoy them while they last.

My opinion remains the same. You want the 800s but don't want to pay the price for them. The 'juice worth the squeeze' factor is a personal decision. Forget the pressure of the sale. You can buy them now, save your pennies for buying them in the future or pick them up used. Going back to my previous statement, if there's any headphone you shouldn't worry too much about buying used, it is Sennheiser.

 

[TyTB]

I don't know that I really DO want the HD800s over anything else. I'm not a basshead by any means, but their complete and utter lack of bass does make a lot of pop and hip hop sound flat, and tinny, and hollow. The Arya Organics or the Meze 109 are better in that regard. But, the vocal performances on the HD800s are definitely more forward, and louder than on the others, and that creates an improved sense of clarity.

What I do know is that, having heard them now, I would definitely not buy the HD800s at their full price of $2399 CAD. They're just not worth it. At $1599, though, it becomes a stronger consideration, in part because I know there's few other headphones that stand the test of time, and get the number of recommendations that the HD800s do.

I was in a similar situation when trying to buy a new digital camera to replace my Nikon D90 camera. I knew that different cameras don't make for better artists, and that I would never be the type to buy a new camera every two years when a new model is released. I needed one for the next ten years, and I settled on the Nikon D850. There were many competing cameras, equally as good in many ways, and many cameras which were better than the D850 in certain ways: video, features, size, price, etc., but there was one category in which the D850 had them all beaten, with no question. As it was simply put at the end of a review that was comparing all the cameras, they say there are some that are better in other ways, but the D850 is, and I quote, "An image-quality monster."

I feel like the HD800s are the headphone equivalent of Nikons D850 (something must be special about 800-numbers?). Yes, there are many other headphones that are better in other ways, for certain genres of music, but the HD800s are the pinnacle of sound clarity and detail. They are "a detail monster", if you will.

Except the analogy breaks down, because it's not that simple. The Nikon DOES have better quality images than the other cameras, and that is true regardless of what type of photo you're taking. The HD800s DOES have more detail than others... But it's NOT true regardless of what you're listening to. Bass or treble-heavy music DOES genuinely sound worse on it than headphones that target that kind of tonality. This is part of why I don't know what to do. I think I was clinging to the HD800s because of their reputation, but I realize now that reputation might not actually sound the best to my ears, because I listen to all genres, not just classical, or the others that are suited to the HD800s, and so then I have to evaluate them more holistically. Build quality, looks, comfort, etc., and that makes the other options start to look comparable, again.

 

[moneypit]

You may not believe you want them but based on everything you have written, you do and are trying to convince yourself otherwise.

When I started a thread 3 years ago, I was looking for basically the same things you are looking for (and most people are), one headphone to do it all. That particular piece of hardware doesn't exist, though the ZMF VC was recommended. Everything is a compromise. I ultimately ended up spending less than my budget target for a setup that I am quite happy with. The soundstage isn't as large as I was looking for but everything else right where I want it to be.

Bass was never on your wishlist from the beginning but now it is because you have heard headphones that have more bass than the 800s. You can't have it all. You're going to have to make some choices.

Don't let the ticking clock of the sale force you into a decision. Either buy the 800s or save your money and keep searching for 'the one.' You'll probably never buy another set of cans again which isn't a bad thing.

 

[earmonger]

Your own experience tells you that the HD800s isn't good for all your music. In fact, you're getting unsatisfactory audio image quality for something that should just make you happy.

That's the deciding factor. Not reputation or a sale price (which, salespeople notwithstanding, will dip to that level or near it again, new or used -- check out Ebay or Head-Fi Classifieds).

There is a set of HD800S on classifieds right now for $750.
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/hd800s-headphones.65182/

People who have invested $2K in Sennheisers have a lot to justify to themselves, at home and online. But you've heard them on an optimum setup and their output in your particular ears isn't magical.

It does seem like the Arya are the sound and fit you really want -- and seriously, comfort makes a huge difference. After my ATH-R70X I will never get something with a bad fit again. The build-quality complaints I have read about HiFiMan are mostly for their mid-priced models. If they are going to sell a kilobuck headphone they had better stand by it.

I'd suggest you heed your misgivings, let the Sennheisers go and get the headphones with the sound and fit you prefer. If the store has a return period, take advantage of it and bring the Aryas home and see how you like living with them. That's the real test -- your place, your music, your preferences. You've been very diligent about doing your research in person. Don't let online peer pressure talk you out of your own perceptions.

 

[Roseval]

To be honest, I didn't read your post completely, too long

In 2013 I decided to buy a new headphone. I compared the HD600and the HD800 (the star at that time). The 600 sounds good but not as good as the 800. Maybe if I was more familiar with EQ I might have tuned the 600 to sound like the 800. But I wasn't and listen to them as they are.
Bought the 800 as this is the sound signature I liked, knowing that at double the price of a 600 it is simply a rip-off.
Have it for more than a decade and if it fails me, it will be a new 800(S) knowing it is a rip-off as well but it sounds great and the comfort is great too (even better if you replace that horrible stiff audiophile cable by a mogami (Hart Audio Cables).

If it hits you between the eye, you better go for it so HD800 it will be.

 

[Thomasr]

Buy a mid-priced Planar* to complement your mid-priced Dynamic Driver, then stick to that duo for the next couple (or couple dozen) years.

It's that simple.

* Hifiman Edition XS, SASH Tres, Fiio FT5, etc.

 

[Whazzzup]

unfortunately .

personally meze doesn't do it but hd800s, yes. But on that system you came up with is what you came up with

 

[Monsterzero]

Lots to unpack here, but the condensed nutshell version is that the HD800 has the same stage to your ears as the HD6xx. Perhaps the largest staging headphone ever vs. a headphone that has a crappy stage for an open back, and all you hear is slightly clearer/cleaner vocals? If I were you I'd forget about the HD800. If your ears cannot hear the stage of the HD800 like most of us can, there really isn't a point in blowing your financial load on something where its strongest and most legendary aspect is inaudible to you.

I could be wrong, and probably am, but I'm wondering how much hearing loss in the upper registry you have?

Anyways, see if you can try out a pair of Beyerdynamic DT880, DT990 or T1.1. All of those have an extra helping of treble, and have that clear/cleaner sound you described hearing on the HD800. All three of the Beyers cost a fraction of what the HD800s do, not to mention theyre quite comfortable and have excellent build quality as well.

 

[castleofargh]

Hello again everyone, welcome back.

I decided to make this a separate follow-up thread, as my previous thread got a ton of replies and community discussion. Thank you to the community, it was a fun thread, and your thoughts were very useful. I apologize if making this a separate thread is against Head-Fi customs.

So, story time. I headed down to my city's premier audio store, Bay-Bloor Radio, for a final round of testing. I brought my Sennheiser 6XX's with me, and compared them to the HD 800s, and a headphone that was recommended to me by one of the employees working there, after we discussed what I was looking for in my auditory experience: The Meze 109 Pro.

To make sure I wasn't bottlenecking myself with file quality, bitrate, DAC output, or amplification power, I used the store's EverSolo DMP-A6 DAC Streamer (Roughly $1000), and the Sennheiser HDV 820 Amp (Roughly $3000) to power the headphones, streaming .flac files from Tidal.

My initial thoughts were as follows:​

• I was glad to hear that my previous testing at the other store was NOT amp-limited, as the differences between the headphones were consistent at both stores.
• The HD800s and Meze were clearer than my HD6XX. I still lack the ability to perfectly articulate the sensation, but it was as if there was a thin wall, or a sheet, or a veil eyes between me and the singer when listening to the HD6XXs, and this veil was lifted when listening to the HD800s and Meze, so I could hear the singer with all the clarity present in their voice. Bass and Treble, however, weren't cleared up by as much as the midtones/vocal frequencies, but that might just be my perception, since it's easier to tell when a word is pronounced clearly, than an arbitrary sound in an instrumental. Overall, though, the 6XX's sound more "compressed" or "condensed" or "muffled" than the HD800s and Meze.
• The Meze had a more U-shaped signature, with much more bass and subbase than the HD800s, and a touch more treble, though this was only noticed on songs that actually HAD deep base or high treble. The flip side of this, of course, is that it made the midtones/vocal frequencies fall back, relatively, which made singers sound quieter and farther away. This made clean, clearly-recorded vocal tracks worse-sounding to my ears, but made hip-hop, and other punchy, base-focused music much more impactful and entertaining to listen to.
• The HD800s did in fact feel very very open, but what defines openness is apparently different than what I had come to expect from reading reviews. It wasn't a wider soundstage than the Meze, and, to my ears, it wasn't really much wider than my HD6XX's, either. Instruments sounded just as close to my ears, or just as far within my head on all of the headphones. However, the HD800s felt like the sound exerted less pressure on my ears. It felt less stuffed, less compressed. It felt more breathable, more airy, and so I took this to update my understanding of what people mean when they say "open". This certainly wasn't what I was looking for, but it was a pleasant sensation, to have less pressure exerted on the ears. It made listening more comfortable, and less tiring. Maybe this is just me, though, as I do have mild tinnitus.

I then did some further testing:​

• I tried EQ-ing some bass into the HD800s to see if I could get the same fun punchiness of the Meze. However, since I had never used the EverSolo before, and was unfamiliar with it's interface, I couldn't tell if the EQ just wasn't working, or if I just suck at EQ-ing, as I admittedly have no experience with EQ. However, I boosted all frequencies from 31 to 250 by more than 10 dB, and boosted 4000 to 16000 by the same amounts, creating a strong U-shaped profile in both Parametric and Graphic EQ modes, but couldn't hear much of any difference, even in songs which clearly were playing sounds in those frequency ranges. No matter what, I couldn't add much of any bass to the HD800s.
• I also tried playing all of these headphones through a tube amp, the Cayin HA-1A Mk II amp (roughly $1000). I couldn't tell a difference between it and the Sennheiser amp, but I also wasn't able to directly A/B test the two amps, so.
• I tried listening to some of the tracks recommended in this reddit post, and could not, for the life of me, identify any of the things the post's writer talks about. I'm listening to the 9th symphony, and the writer talks about evaluating how far out of my head the sound seems to come from, up to a maximum of .4 head widths, meanwhile, every single headphone sounds the same, with the instruments being located squarely WITHIN my head. Hell, they're not even REACHING the tips of my ears, let alone .4 head widths OUTSIDE of them.
  • And I mean, really, we're talking about the HD800s, on a sennheiser-brand amp, receiving $3000 worth of amplification, playing .flac files from a $1000 DAC unit, playing CLASSICAL SYMPHONIC MUSIC. If there were EVER A TIME you'd expect the HD800s to shine, THIS IS IT. This is the HD800s' supposed wheelhouse, and yet, not a single instrument felt like it was external to my head. It all sat well within. Separation maxed out at maybe an inch or two of separation. Granted, there was some imaging, I could hear instruments coming from different directions, but absolutely no staging width, no depth, no resolution differences between headphones, etc.
  • When I posted this whole post to Reddit, yesterday, many people seem to think that it's a toss-up as to whether a human is able to hear soundstage width or not. Many people say they agree, many others say they can easily feel the instruments coming from outside their head. Seems to have more to do with genetics and ear anatomy than headphones.
• The HD800s were comfortable in the sense of the earcups being massive and open, and distributing their load across a huge pad, but the Meze were comfortable in the sense of having very plush earpads. The HD800's felt like rocks by comparison. TBH, I'm surprised the HD800s earpads are only like 1/4" thick. It seems a little nonsensical to me. I asked the store about it too and they said the pads were fairly new, that's just what they're like. The headstrap of the Meze was far more comfortable than the HD800s, though.
• I made sure to listen a bunch of different tracks, from many different groups and genres. Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, Glass Animals, etc., and many individual songs of different types. A-OK, Achilles Come Down, Cane Suga, Lavender Haze, Claire De Lune, Moonlight Sonata, Feel Good Inc., She Knows, HOME - Resonance, Home by Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeroes, Goliath by Woodkid, Take me Home Country Roads, etc. Many songs were well-produced, with instrument separation and a wide sound stage, and many were "normally" produced, with no separation. In only THREE SONGS out of 30+, though, did it feel like an instrument was coming from just outside my ear - A song from Fleetwood Mac, Grateful Dead, and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Most importantly, though, the sound stage width was the same in all of the headphones, from my low 6XX's, to the HD800s. Yes, the HD800s were more "open", but all instruments were located in exactly the same place as my 6XX's, and just as far within/outside my head.
• I made this little graphic to illustrate what I felt, on all the headphones I've tested so far. On well-produced music, like Fleetwood Mac, I can hear the drums, the lead guitar, the bass guitar, and the singers, all coming from different locations, but these locations are maybe an inch apart in space, and are still located firmly within the confines of my head. On poorly-produced stuff, it was all dead-center in my head, No matter which headphone.
• 

Closing Thoughts and Rankings:​

• I have now tested several headphones, and from what I can tell, the Hifiman Arya Organics, Sennheiser HD800s, Meze 109 Pro, and Denon AH-D5200 are all clearer than my HD6XX's, making the 6XX's sound condensed, or muffled, or veiled by comparison. The Hifiman Edition XS I tried did NOT soundany clearer or less veiled.
  • With some headphones like the Arya Organics and Meze 109 Pro, which had better bass representation, I could actually hear how the bass was clearer, too. Less muddied, and it was also much stronger, giving me that "standing-in-front-of-a-subwoofer" kind of rumbling of my body, but only in two songs that actually HAD that kind of sub-base, and only when the volume was cranked way up, above where I'd actually listen.
• The HD 800s' and Arya Organics felt equally open, assuming we take "open" to mean "very little feeling of pressure on the ear and the eardrum", and NOT to mean "instruments sound far apart".
  • The Arya Organics had better bass, but, to my ears, nearly identical uppers/treble as the HD800s. The only difference was in the midtones, where singer's voices seemed to be a bit more forward/louder in the HD800s than the Arya Organics. Both were equally clear, though, and there were no differences in resolution, staging, detail, imaging, etc. The Organics are just the HD800s with bass.
• The HD 800s' and the Meze 109 Pro are a similar story, in that the Meze 109 Pro had much better bass and sub-base. However, it also had more treble, which the Arya Organic didn't. This made music sound not just bassier, but warmer. However, this meant that the midtones / vocal frequencies sounded even FARTHER back relative to the HD800s than the Arya Organics were.
  • To phrase it more simply:
    • Strong Base | Meze 109 & Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Weak Base
    • Weak, Receeded Mids | Meze 109 | Arya Organics | Senn HD800s | Strong, Forward Mids
    • Normal Treble | Senn HD800s & Arya Organics | Meze 109 | Strong Treble
• The other headphones I tested (Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Audeze LCD-X) either did not sound any clearer than my HD 6XX's, or, in the case of the Audeze, had way too U-shaped of a profile to be useable for music with singing.
• The new Sennheiser HD 660 s sound clearer than the 6XX, but only in the midtones and uppers. The bass is just as weak and just as muddied.
• The Arya Organics were the most comfortable on my head. Very light, very plush, and very big, meaning the clamping pressure is distributed across a large area. The Meze 109 and Senn HD800s were both equally comfortable, but in different ways. The HD800s feel very hard, because their pads are paper-thin, but because the cups are SO big, the load dispersion is huge. The meze, on the other hand, were the smallest cups of them all, but the very plush cushions felt comfortable, and the head strap is absolutely superb.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics are much better looking than the HD800s, to me.
• The Meze 109 and Arya Organics have MUCH better build quality than the HD800s, when talking about the actual body of the headphone itself. The headband, ear cups, etc. The Senn HD800s feel like cheap plasticky garbage compared to the metal + wood bodies of the Meze and Arya. I have no idea how their actual drivers measure up against the Senn's in terms of reliability, but we all know the Senn is bulletproof.

Most Importantly of All:​

Absolutely NONE of these hi-fi headphones, or the $4000 of equipment they ran on, have transformed my auditory experience the way I was hoping. I was hoping for a transformation similar to the one I experienced when first stepping up from $50 childhood headphones to my HD6XX's, but scaled down slightly because of diminishing returns. I was hoping to hear new instruments and sounds I never knew were in a song, to head true soundstage separation and to have instruments feel like they're outside my head.

What I got instead was AT. MOST. A 10% improvement. At most. And only if I focus on it. And only on songs that are well-produced enough for it to even matter. Things are a BIT clearer. The bass is stronger in some of the headphones. Instrumentals are a bit snappier. That's really it. Music still sounds the same, such a tiny bit cleaner, and clearer. The openness of the HD800s feels nice on the ears, though, in terms of reduced intracranial pressure.

Where I'm at now, and how you can help:​

I am completely friggen lost, that's where I am.

Speaking frankly, I am a very broke individual. I have been trying to save money for this headphone purchase for the past Six Years. This has always meant that the HD800s sat squarely in the realm of "absolutely impossible" to purchase. I simply would never own a pair of HD800s. I came to terms with that.

Then I found out that they're on sale for $1599, a price that has never been seen before by any of the staff working at Bay Bloor Radio, in the 10+ years they've been working there. And the sale is ending in TWO DAYS.

I can theoretically afford $1599. It's a stretch, but it's worth it, IF IT'S WORTH IT.

What I REALLY can't afford is to buy a half-measure now, only to buy a more expensive headphone later, anyway. I want my personal summit product, because I expect to keep it for the next 10+ years at a minimum. I am NOT a gearhead. I will NOT be buying another pair of headphones after this, for at least 10 years.

That said, money is still money, and diminishing returns are real, so the way I look at my options is like this:

1. Arya Organics. They sound just as clear and resolving and open as the HD800s, but have better bass, which is the only thing the HD800s lack. This makes them, in a sense, the HD800s, but perfected. They're also supremely comfortable on my head, and I absolutely LOVE the way they look. They are also fairly priced, at $1299. The major concern, though, is with their reliability. I spoke to a Hifiman employee and he told me that they recently upgraded all of their manufacturing equipment at their factory in Guangzhou, and that the Arya Organics were the first headphones off this modernized and improved machinery, and that, in Hifiman's own opinion, the drivers are much better-built and more reliable than Hifiman's previous products, even when compared to their higher-tiered headphones like the HE1000se.
2. The Meze 109 Pro. This was a surprise find for me, as I had never heard of them before I went into the store. They are the most "fun" of the three headphones, as they got great bass, AND warm treble. Makes hip-hop and pop and rock real fun to listen to. However, voices and midtones sound very far back compared to the HD800s. They are less open than the Organics or the HD800s, but are still more open than the 6XX. They are just as clear as the Organics and the HD800s. They are not as comfortable as the Organics, but are much more plush than the HD800s. The headstrap is superb, and they look Gorgeous too. The walnut cups really pleases the woodworker in me. They are also the cheapest, at $1099. Reliability is unknown.
3. The HD800s. Very open, very low-pressure on the eardrums. Great clarity and detail, but I can't say they're any more detailed than the other two. The thing is, because they ARE more neutral, and don't have as much of the U-shape to their presentation, voices sound much more forward and louder, and this loudness makes them easier to hear, which is easily confused for greater clarity. I don't doubt that these are the best for classical music, but for most other genres, the utter lack of bass makes music feel sterile and hollow by comparison. I keep finding myself drawn to the warmth and bass of the other two by comparison, but only when listening to the genres of music that need it. The fit and finish is atrocious. The HD800s look like the same class of product as my HD6XX's. All plastic, no fine details other than the silver mesh around the earcups, etc. Looks like a $300 headphone, visually, but the reliability of the drivers themselves are well-established as being absolutely bulletproof.

So... what would you guys choose?​

• Reliable, Clear, Open, and Precise, but ugly and bass-weak HD800s for $1599
• Beautiful, Comfortable, Clear, Open, and Bassy but possibly unreliable Arya Organics for $1299
• Beautiful, Clear, Bassy, and Warm-trebled, but vocally-recessed Meze 109 Pro's for $1099
• The Unknown: Hifiman HE1000 Stealth for $1399

Yeah, that's right, I threw a new headphone in right at the end. The Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. Per Hifiman's sales reps and also a store owner, the HE1000 is more directly comparable to the HD800s than the Arya Organics are, as they have a more neutral sound signature like the HD800s, and are "smoother" in the treble than the Organics. However, they were produced on Hifiman's original equipment, and so they are likely not as reliable as the newer Arya Organics, which were made on the new equipment. I have not, and will not be able to test the HE1000's anywhere.

Anyways, I'm fried, and overwhelmed. Thoughts are welcome.

Thank you for reading!

Sound localization refers to the ability to identify the location of a sound source in a sound field, whereas lateralization refers to the similar auditory ability in which the listener determines the location of sounds, presented through headphones, in their head (intracranial) (Musiek and Chermak, 2015).

In research, localization and lateralization are used that way for a reason. On this forum, you might feel like a weird outlier, but IRL you're not. It's probably because those with terrible headphone imaging experience may not get all that passionate about the headphone hobby in the first place. IDK.

My suggestion is to stop looking for stereo gear and look for 3D/speaker simulation along with head tracking solutions(This assuming you don't have the option of just using speakers). That is how you might come closer to an experience that isn't headphone listening and its various problems.
If you get a solution using a HRTF model that's close to your own(luck) or is your own(measured), you will get a correct horizontal angle for sound sources, and if you're lucky and know you're pretty much never moving your head while listening to headphones, you are likely to also get externalization(out of your head sound sources at some relevant distances).
For a number of listeners like myself, head tracking is necessary to get externalization and given your description of sound placement, I expect that you're one of us(sorry).
Even if you don't have the right HRTF with head tracking, you can still train your brain to those new cues over time. It takes a while, and I don't know that distance really improves as much as it can with proper HRTF model, so obviously it is better to have something close enough to your own HRTF for convolution while using head tracking, but it's not vital(according to some research).

What you need depends on your head, brain, and use cases(portable or not, from computer or standalone, using a dedicated headphone or wireless earbuds VS a solution that's adapted around the headphone you already have and like). I admit that I'm not up-to-date when it comes to products handling head tracking and their various limitations(I'm a happy Realiser A16 owner, so I stopped caring). But they keep coming and will keep coming because it's obviously the right way to get sound on headphones. So even if you don't feel like there is a product for you now(many are complicated, several are dedicated to studio and working in a DAW, or simple but often crap), don't give up. There are already many times more solutions now than just 5 years ago.

 

[o0genesis0o]

In research, localization and lateralization are used that way for a reason. On this forum, you might feel like a weird outlier, but IRL you're not. It's probably because those with terrible headphone imaging experience may not get all that passionate about the headphone hobby in the first place. IDK.

My suggestion is to stop looking for stereo gear and look for 3D/speaker simulation along with head tracking solutions(This assuming you don't have the option of just using speakers). That is how you might come closer to an experience that isn't headphone listening and its various problems.
If you get a solution using a HRTF model that's close to your own(luck) or is your own(measured), you will get a correct horizontal angle for sound sources, and if you're lucky and know you're pretty much never moving your head while listening to headphones, you are likely to also get externalization(out of your head sound sources at some relevant distances).
For a number of listeners like myself, head tracking is necessary to get externalization and given your description of sound placement, I expect that you're one of us(sorry).
Even if you don't have the right HRTF with head tracking, you can still train your brain to those new cues over time. It takes a while, and I don't know that distance really improves as much as it can with proper HRTF model, so obviously it is better to have something close enough to your own HRTF for convolution while using head tracking, but it's not vital(according to some research).

What you need depends on your head, brain, and use cases(portable or not, from computer or standalone, using a dedicated headphone or wireless earbuds VS a solution that's adapted around the headphone you already have and like). I admit that I'm not up-to-date when it comes to products handling head tracking and their various limitations(I'm a happy Realiser A16 owner, so I stopped caring). But they keep coming and will keep coming because it's obviously the right way to get sound on headphones. So even if you don't feel like there is a product for you now(many are complicated, several are dedicated to studio and working in a DAW, or simple but often crap), don't give up. There are already many times more solutions now than just 5 years ago.

At this rate, just buy speakers

 

[Cheesebuggah]

I wouldn't treat this scenario differently than something like collecting/buying watches (with a hint of added science). Whether spending that amount of money is worth it is up to you: intrinsic value. So, saving up for a dream object for six years, sure, could be worth the money if you feel fulfillment/inspiration from simply seeing it on a stand. Then again, how long it would keep you happy is another question. Perhaps you gain pleasure by learning about a new headphone and doing hours of research on it. I don't think you are this type of person. This 10% improvement is something I hear somewhat frequently here. If you are chasing audiophilia (faithful reproduction of music) or the best way to listen to music, speakers might objectively be your best bet. Though I would say closed-backs/IEMs can be more detailed, you can hear more instrument sets/layers.

Between the 6XX and a pair of Koss KSC-75s, I like the KSC-75s more simply because they are more comfortable. Funnily enough, my dream pair of headphones are the HD800S because I like the brand, they can be considered "endgame-viable" from the price/R&D/community perception, and they also look cool from a picture I saw years ago. I would look more into the physics of transducers and the enclosure, because the HD800S is still an open-back, large, and slanted dynamic driver strapped to your head. It can't be the best heavy hitter in the bass department simply because it's opened, meaning there is not enough air pressure to deliver lower frequencies, at least without distortion. For speakers, it's easier to imagine sounds coming from further away when the whole room is enclosed. Just my two cents.

For staging, maybe something like crossfeed or HeSuVi for Peace APO could play more into a larger perceived soundstage, even if it may affect the tone.

 

[Coolmoose]

I’ve read your whole post and concur with several points you’ve raised. It’s common for individuals to share their initial impressions of new audio equipment using superlatives such as “way better,” “not even close,” or my favorite “night and day.” While I understand the excitement that accompanies the acquisition of high-end gear, this often results in setting unrealistic expectations for those new to the audiophile community. The anticipation that a significant financial investment will radically enhance listening experience is a common misconception. However, as your findings suggest, the actual improvement is typically marginal best.

Back on topic, regarding the options you’ve outlined, the Arya seems to be the most suitable choice based on your positive assessment and the absence of any notable drawbacks.

 

[Hyde00]

I think at this point we need to backtrack a bit, what's your favourite music genre? You should buy a headphone that fits your music need, not buy a headphone that sounds good for classical / orchestra because it's what audiophiles listens to lol.

Now you mentioned you had Denon D2000, then later on you got HD6XX (which is actually HD650, in one of your post you mentioned it sounded different than HD600, that is correct because HD6XX is actually HD650 which is different).

Do you like the sound signature of D2000 better or HD6XX more? Because they are actually 2 very different headphone.

I went down the path of D2000 -> tried a bunch of Denon/Fostex headphones -> end up with Lawton (Fostex) TH900. Because right now it sounds like you like clean and clear sound but you also like fun sound. In this case as others have said maybe Arya Organic is the better middle ground?

Or do you need to go back to the Fostex roots. Maybe you should go demo the TH610 or TH900 at headfone shop since you're in Toronto. https://www.headfoneshop.com/

But if you intend to stick to open back then as others have said that Arya Organic is probably better?

As for having that "mind blowing moment" going from crappy headphone to D2000 or HD6XX. You're already entering diminishing return, at most you'll get 15% better. It's hard to have "mind blowingly better" here on.

I demoed HE-1 at Bay Bloor Radio and even so I wasn't mind blown. I also went to Audio Fest in Toronto last winter (you should go) then I was only impressed by Focal Utopia and Stax SR-X9000, but both are out of anyone's budget really lol.

Oh Sennheiser come to Bay Bloor Radio every year, you should lookout for them this coming year.

But what I'm trying to say is, the realistic expectation is more like 15% better? Yes. 50% better? Not possible if you're already at HD6XX.

Feel free to shoot me a DM if you have any questions, since I'm also located in Toronto.

 

[TyTB]

Thank you all again for your continued replies!

Your own experience tells you that the HD800s isn't good for all your music. In fact, you're getting unsatisfactory audio image quality for something that should just make you happy.

That's the deciding factor. Not reputation or a sale price (which, salespeople notwithstanding, will dip to that level or near it again, new or used -- check out Ebay or Head-Fi Classifieds).

There is a set of HD800S on classifieds right now for $750.
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/hd800s-headphones.65182/

People who have invested $2K in Sennheisers have a lot to justify to themselves, at home and online. But you've heard them on an optimum setup and their output in your particular ears isn't magical.

It does seem like the Arya are the sound and fit you really want -- and seriously, comfort makes a huge difference. After my ATH-R70X I will never get something with a bad fit again. The build-quality complaints I have read about HiFiMan are mostly for their mid-priced models. If they are going to sell a kilobuck headphone they had better stand by it.

I'd suggest you heed your misgivings, let the Sennheisers go and get the headphones with the sound and fit you prefer. If the store has a return period, take advantage of it and bring the Aryas home and see how you like living with them. That's the real test -- your place, your music, your preferences. You've been very diligent about doing your research in person. Don't let online peer pressure talk you out of your own perceptions.

Of course, you're right, and that value is ultimately subjective.

I went back to a store and did some more testing and realized I really am leaning towards the HD800s. The sound signature of the Arya Organic is much better to me, as the bass is WAY better, but it turned out that with just a crappy preset bass-boost EQ setting, I was able to get the HD800's to sound damn-near exactly like the Organics.

Okay, so the Organics are disqualified then, because it makes no sense to buy objectively less-reliable headphones from a notoriously poorly-made brand like Hifiman, just to save a bit of money. The Organics are also way heavier, so the comfort was lacking compared to the HD800s.

That left the Meze 109 Pros, which had way more treble AND base than the HD800s..... well, that is, until I toggled on a crappy preset U-shaped bass-and-treble-boost EQ setting, and voila, the HD800's sounded damn-near exactly like the 109 Pro' to me.

I feel like I'm spouting blasphemy in these forums, suggesting that the HD800s can be toyed with to sound like much cheaper headphones. Like, why would anyone do that? Well, because the HD800s have their build quality, their light weight, and are still more open-feeling than the other two.

To be honest, I didn't read your post completely, too long

In 2013 I decided to buy a new headphone. I compared the HD600and the HD800 (the star at that time). The 600 sounds good but not as good as the 800. Maybe if I was more familiar with EQ I might have tuned the 600 to sound like the 800. But I wasn't and listen to them as they are.
Bought the 800 as this is the sound signature I liked, knowing that at double the price of a 600 it is simply a rip-off.
Have it for more than a decade and if it fails me, it will be a new 800(S) knowing it is a rip-off as well but it sounds great and the comfort is great too (even better if you replace that horrible stiff audiophile cable by a mogami (Hart Audio Cables).

If it hits you between the eye, you better go for it so HD800 it will be.

Buy a mid-priced Planar* to complement your mid-priced Dynamic Driver, then stick to that duo for the next couple (or couple dozen) years.

It's that simple.

* Hifiman Edition XS, SASH Tres, Fiio FT5, etc.

So, I tried the Edition XS, and it sounded pretty much exactly the same as my 6XXs, just with better base. It still sounded very condensed and muffled and veiled. I couldn't discern any more detail or clarity. When I stepped up to the Arya line, though, I started to notice substantial improvements in clarity.

unfortunately .



personally meze doesn't do it but hd800s, yes. But on that system you came up with is what you came up with

Lots to unpack here, but the condensed nutshell version is that the HD800 has the same stage to your ears as the HD6xx. Perhaps the largest staging headphone ever vs. a headphone that has a crappy stage for an open back, and all you hear is slightly clearer/cleaner vocals? If I were you I'd forget about the HD800. If your ears cannot hear the stage of the HD800 like most of us can, there really isn't a point in blowing your financial load on something where its strongest and most legendary aspect is inaudible to you.

I could be wrong, and probably am, but I'm wondering how much hearing loss in the upper registry you have?

Anyways, see if you can try out a pair of Beyerdynamic DT880, DT990 or T1.1. All of those have an extra helping of treble, and have that clear/cleaner sound you described hearing on the HD800. All three of the Beyers cost a fraction of what the HD800s do, not to mention theyre quite comfortable and have excellent build quality as well.

There's a lot to unpack with me in general....

I am 28 years old, and, at least in terms of volume, have the most sensitive ears of anyone I know, with the best hearing ability. I can hear people whispering from another floor, at the opposite end of my house. I always use hearing protection when in noisy environments, and try to never listen to my music too loud. I'm hoping this means I have basically no hearing loss at all, beyond the standard age-related high-frequency loss.

Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I'm thinking that, well, if the HD800s are known for having the best sound staging out there, and people are telling me to use DSP / 3D audio trickery to enhance the sound stage, then I will be able to get more DSP enhancement out of a headphone that has a wide soundstage to begin with, vs one that is narrow.

Like, I can use DSP on my current 6XX's, too, but I'm telling myself that the possibility for enhancement is greater on the HD800s, that the DSP will lead to an EVEN BIGGER soundstage on the HD800s than the 6XXs. Maybe this is all incorrect, though.

In research, localization and lateralization are used that way for a reason. On this forum, you might feel like a weird outlier, but IRL you're not. It's probably because those with terrible headphone imaging experience may not get all that passionate about the headphone hobby in the first place. IDK.

My suggestion is to stop looking for stereo gear and look for 3D/speaker simulation along with head tracking solutions(This assuming you don't have the option of just using speakers). That is how you might come closer to an experience that isn't headphone listening and its various problems.
If you get a solution using a HRTF model that's close to your own(luck) or is your own(measured), you will get a correct horizontal angle for sound sources, and if you're lucky and know you're pretty much never moving your head while listening to headphones, you are likely to also get externalization(out of your head sound sources at some relevant distances).
For a number of listeners like myself, head tracking is necessary to get externalization and given your description of sound placement, I expect that you're one of us(sorry).
Even if you don't have the right HRTF with head tracking, you can still train your brain to those new cues over time. It takes a while, and I don't know that distance really improves as much as it can with proper HRTF model, so obviously it is better to have something close enough to your own HRTF for convolution while using head tracking, but it's not vital(according to some research).

What you need depends on your head, brain, and use cases(portable or not, from computer or standalone, using a dedicated headphone or wireless earbuds VS a solution that's adapted around the headphone you already have and like). I admit that I'm not up-to-date when it comes to products handling head tracking and their various limitations(I'm a happy Realiser A16 owner, so I stopped caring). But they keep coming and will keep coming because it's obviously the right way to get sound on headphones. So even if you don't feel like there is a product for you now(many are complicated, several are dedicated to studio and working in a DAW, or simple but often crap), don't give up. There are already many times more solutions now than just 5 years ago.

I'll be honest, I know nothing about HRTF, and had never heard of the acronym until i started making these posts a week and a bit ago. It's a whole other can of worms I might get into one day, but I can't rely on it at this time, for my decision-making.

That said, I do think that maybe some DSP / 3D audio trickery might help. In this case, I'm telling myself that the DSP systems will be able to achieve even greater expansion of the soundstage if I'm using them on a headphone that HAS a bigger soundstage to BEGIN WITH, I.e. the Sennheiser HD800s.

At this rate, just buy speakers

God I wish. Unfortunately, because of my living situation, speakers won't be an option for at least ten years.

And, truth be told, I kinda like the warmth and feeling of headphones on my head/ears.

I wouldn't treat this scenario differently than something like collecting/buying watches (with a hint of added science). Whether spending that amount of money is worth it is up to you: intrinsic value. So, saving up for a dream object for six years, sure, could be worth the money if you feel fulfillment/inspiration from simply seeing it on a stand. Then again, how long it would keep you happy is another question. Perhaps you gain pleasure by learning about a new headphone and doing hours of research on it. I don't think you are this type of person. This 10% improvement is something I hear somewhat frequently here. If you are chasing audiophilia (faithful reproduction of music) or the best way to listen to music, speakers might objectively be your best bet. Though I would say closed-backs/IEMs can be more detailed, you can hear more instrument sets/layers.

Between the 6XX and a pair of Koss KSC-75s, I like the KSC-75s more simply because they are more comfortable. Funnily enough, my dream pair of headphones are the HD800S because I like the brand, they can be considered "endgame-viable" from the price/R&D/community perception, and they also look cool from a picture I saw years ago. I would look more into the physics of transducers and the enclosure, because the HD800S is still an open-back, large, and slanted dynamic driver strapped to your head. It can't be the best heavy hitter in the bass department simply because it's opened, meaning there is not enough air pressure to deliver lower frequencies, at least without distortion. For speakers, it's easier to imagine sounds coming from further away when the whole room is enclosed. Just my two cents.

For staging, maybe something like crossfeed or HeSuVi for Peace APO could play more into a larger perceived soundstage, even if it may affect the tone.

You know, it's interesting. I approached all of this testing a week ago with many year's-worth of expectations that were built up by reading reviews and such.

None of those expectations were met, most likely because it's next to impossible to intuitively understand an auditory phenomenon with words alone, you have you actually HEAR it yourself to truly understand it.

However... I came away with a completely different set of pleasant experiences and awakenings. I actually got to feel what true open-ness sounds like. I got to hear clarity I never realized was missing from my 6XXs. I got to hear bass, done well, which I also never realized I was missing.

Now, do I necessarily have to buy the ultra-expensive HD800s to realize these same improvements? Of course not, there's lots of bassy $200 headphones, and lots of clear $100 IEM's. However, I did actually try lesser headphones. I wore some Focal Clear MG's, I wore some Hifiman Edition XS's, some Audeze LCD-2, and they weren't anywhere near as good as the Arya Organics / Meze 109 Pro / Sennheiser HD800s. It seems I really do need to pierce that $1000 price point to start getting that, at least with the headphones I've tried.

Now that I'm back at home, listening to my HD6XX's again, I find I can't stop missing the clarity and bass I heard in those better headsets....

I’ve read your whole post and concur with several points you’ve raised. It’s common for individuals to share their initial impressions of new audio equipment using superlatives such as “way better,” “not even close,” or my favorite “night and day.” While I understand the excitement that accompanies the acquisition of high-end gear, this often results in setting unrealistic expectations for those new to the audiophile community. The anticipation that a significant financial investment will radically enhance listening experience is a common misconception. However, as your findings suggest, the actual improvement is typically marginal best.

Back on topic, regarding the options you’ve outlined, the Arya seems to be the most suitable choice based on your positive assessment and the absence of any notable drawbacks.

Thank you! Please see my response to earmonger, at the top of this comment. It turned out, with some more testing, that through some very rudimentary EQ-ing, I was able to get the HD800s to sound exactly like the Arya Organics (at least, to my ears). This means the Organics are disqualified, because there's no sense in buying an objectively-less-reliable headset from an objectively-less-reliable brand, just to save a few bucks. The Aryas are also substantially heavier, so the HD800s were much more comfortable to wear over the long term.

I think at this point we need to backtrack a bit, what's your favourite music genre? You should buy a headphone that fits your music need, not buy a headphone that sounds good for classical / orchestra because it's what audiophiles listens to lol.

Now you mentioned you had Denon D2000, then later on you got HD6XX (which is actually HD650, in one of your post you mentioned it sounded different than HD600, that is correct because HD6XX is actually HD650 which is different).

Do you like the sound signature of D2000 better or HD6XX more? Because they are actually 2 very different headphone.

I went down the path of D2000 -> tried a bunch of Denon/Fostex headphones -> end up with Lawton (Fostex) TH900. Because right now it sounds like you like clean and clear sound but you also like fun sound. In this case as others have said maybe Arya Organic is the better middle ground?

Or do you need to go back to the Fostex roots. Maybe you should go demo the TH610 or TH900 at headfone shop since you're in Toronto. https://www.headfoneshop.com/

But if you intend to stick to open back then as others have said that Arya Organic is probably better?

As for having that "mind blowing moment" going from crappy headphone to D2000 or HD6XX. You're already entering diminishing return, at most you'll get 15% better. It's hard to have "mind blowingly better" here on.

I demoed HE-1 at Bay Bloor Radio and even so I wasn't mind blown. I also went to Audio Fest in Toronto last winter (you should go) then I was only impressed by Focal Utopia and Stax SR-X9000, but both are out of anyone's budget really lol.

Oh Sennheiser come to Bay Bloor Radio every year, you should lookout for them this coming year.

But what I'm trying to say is, the realistic expectation is more like 15% better? Yes. 50% better? Not possible if you're already at HD6XX.

Feel free to shoot me a DM if you have any questions, since I'm also located in Toronto.

Damn, I didn't know you could upload porn in these comments.... what a beautiful headset, the Orpheus.

Anyway, the major problem I'm experiencing is the old Socrates problem... I don't know what I don't know.

I'm too inexperienced with all things audio to even KNOW what I'm looking for. I SAY that I want neutral sound, meanwhile, when I actually hear it on the HD800s, I find it boring as hell compared to the much more U-shaped Meze 109 Pros. I SAY that I want a wide soundstage, meanwhile, I do not seem to be anatomically capable of even discerning one... and so on.

Please see my response to Cheesbuggah above. I've re-posted it here as well:

I approached all of this testing a week ago with many year's-worth of expectations that were built up by reading reviews and such.

None of those expectations were met, most likely because it's next to impossible to intuitively understand an auditory phenomenon with words alone, you have you actually HEAR it yourself to truly understand it.

However... I came away with a completely different set of pleasant experiences and awakenings. I actually got to feel what true open-ness sounds like. I got to hear clarity I never realized was missing from my 6XXs. I got to hear bass, done well, which I also never realized I was missing.

Now, do I necessarily have to buy the ultra-expensive HD800s to realize these same improvements? Of course not, there's lots of bassy $200 headphones, and lots of clear $100 IEM's. However, I did actually try lesser headphones. I wore some Focal Clear MG's, I wore some Hifiman Edition XS's, some Audeze LCD-2, and they weren't anywhere near as good as the Arya Organics / Meze 109 Pro / Sennheiser HD800s in a wholistic sense. It seems I really do need to pierce that $1000 price point to start getting that, at least with the headphones I've tried.

Now that I'm back at home, listening to my HD6XX's again, I find I can't stop missing the clarity and bass I heard in those better headsets....