[moneypit]

TL;DR: Build a system from scratch for a soft limit of $4k US.

Here's the deal.

I've been working remotely for over a year and, if the decision is made to work remotely permanently, I want to upgrade my desktop setup.

Currently, I am using Amazon Music HD as the source running the windows app connected to an ancient Grace M902 via AudioQuest Forest USB and listening to either an equally ancient Sennheiser HD580 or Shure SE535. I also have a pair of AKG K701s which are mostly relegated to Teams calls these days as they are comfortable but the sound doesn't do much for me. I do have a library of about 700 CDs ripped either .wav or flac on a network drive.

I used to have a Dragonfly Red but I lost it somewhere and I'll never buy something that small again because I lose things. I was using the original Headroom Total Bithead until last year when I upgraded my two-channel setup to an RME ADI-2 DAC (Emotiva XPA2 gen1, Magnepan MMG, REL T5) and moved the M902 to the desk.

Anyway, enough background.

My music tastes run the gamut. If I hear it and I like it, I'll listen to it. I do like voices/instruments to sound realistic which I think all of us do. I know what a guitar sounds like and I want to get as close to one being in the room as possible.

I am considering some decent cans I can audition somewhat locally at the same store (Sennheiser HD800s, Focal Clear MG, Audeze LCDx) and tons of different DACs/headamps (Questyle, Vioelectric, WooAudio, Chord, Shiit and others). I also considered buying a second RME because I like staring at the EQ but that just seems weird to have two of them. I also would like to run a balanced setup.

I was thinking about getting the DAC and headamp first (either integrated or separates) and then using it to audition the cans but they are all very different and I probably wouldn't want to listen to Clears on a tube setup, etc. Auditioning the hardware is possible in some cases (Shiit is not very far away) and not in others.

At the very least, the m902 needs to be put out to pasture and am not looking to upgrade again for at least a decade. I've only bought 4 DACs/headamps in the last 16 years and 2 of them were under $200.

My gut is telling me that any of the above will be such a significant upgrade that differences will be so miniscule that pointing them out would be nitpicking like being given a Ferrari and complaining about the color. Using Amazon as the primary source is a concern. If that is the bottleneck, maybe I can get 90% of the performance for 20% of the money. I am certainly not opposed to spending less money.

So if you were in my position, what would you do?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

What music? It would help to be more specific. If you're really into everything then the HD 800s (haven't heard the S model) are not nearly as enjoyable for me as a pair of HD 600s for anything except big room music. All around enjoyable cans don't have to be expensive. But if you listen to unusual music or are a basshead and wanted audiophile grade cans it helps to know.

For accurate tonality the HD 600 is king. For warmth, LCD-2C is really a wonderful easygoing pair of headphones with no glaring weaknesses. For different kinds of music there are specialty cans. The RME does a great job with the 2C and does very well with the 3F. It does not drive 300 ohm Sennheisers well.

For amps it depends on your choice of cans. The big Violectrics can drive almost anything well but you might want an upscale tube amp if you choose 800s/800S. There are just tons of variables here.

DACs, personally I would totally avoid schiitty DACs other than the Yggy (which I have not heard) because of no DSD and no MQA and because of the atrocious, combative "customer service" experience I have had. That said a used Valhalla 2 with good tubes and a pair of HD 600s is gonna be hard to beat for pure enjoyment, even if it is not the most technical experience.

 

[Monsterzero]

I also have a pair of AKG K701s which are mostly relegated to Teams calls these days as they are comfortable but the sound doesn't do much for me.

You can safely disregard any other headphone described as neutral and has a massive stage. Looking at you HD800.

K701 is a tricky headphone to amp well, and even then its still hit or miss when it comes to amp synergy, but when the stars do align correctly its a fantastic sounding headphone.

I was thinking about getting the DAC and headamp first

Thats kinda bass ackwards, but others have done it that way occasionally. Curious though, why youre preferring to find a HP that synergizes well with your amp? Do you have an amp in mind?

My suggestion is to:

* narrow down the sound signature you enjoy
* find headphones that have that sound signature
* choose a headphone
* research what the best amps are for your headphone
* find a DAC that balances out the amp and headphone
* enjoy

 

[gimmeheadroom]

You can safely disregard any other headphone described as neutral and has a massive stage. Looking at you HD800.

K701 is a tricky headphone to amp well, and even then its still hit or miss when it comes to amp synergy, but when the stars do align correctly its a fantastic sounding headphone.


Thats kinda bass ackwards, but others have done it that way occasionally. Curious though, why youre preferring to find a HP that synergizes well with your amp? Do you have an amp in mind?

My suggestion is to:

* narrow down the sound signature you enjoy
* find headphones that have that sound signature
* choose a headphone
* research what the best amps are for your headphone
* find a DAC that balances out the amp and headphone
* enjoy

I love reading your posts, they're so full of common sense. Beer's on me if you get to Prague

 

[Monsterzero]

Thanks mate...
I'd love to visit Prague. Yall have some amazing architecture and the ladies are pretty nice too!

 

[moneypit]

Ok....wow. Thanks. I appreciate the patience and feedback. Let me throw some more information out there.

The reason I was leaning amp first was that I know that is a weak spot in my current setup. The headphones I already own are not slouches even though they are not the latest and greatest.

I have had the K701s for maybe 10 years and I used to prefer them to the HD580 but I had not listened to the Senns for 5 years or so and just started again. Don't know how much it matters but I have the Austria-made ones before they moved manufacturing to China. I have been A/B testing the two with the m902 for at least an hour and have some observations. . There seemed to be a pattern emerging.

Bach: Cello Suite #1: - Definitely k701, not even close
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue - 701 but with the tympani drums and lower piano octaves from the 580
Debussy: Claire de lune - This one was tough. I think a slight edge to the 580. I really struggled with this but the 580 made it sound like it was being played in my house and the 701 was more like in an auditorium on an empty stage. Both sounded relatively "accurate" but I very slightly preferred the sound of the 580
White Stripes: Seven Nation Army - 580, the soundstage is too big for this song on the 701 and felt disconnected
Daft Punk: Around the World - Tie, I like the clarity of the 701 but the bass of the 580
Ganstagrass: Long Hard Times to Come - 580...Similar to the Daft Punk findings but the bass on the track broke the tie.
Florence and the Machine: Dog Days Are Over - k701. The 580s felt a little cramped
Arctic Monkeys: Do I wanna know? - 580 only because the bass guitar is lost on the k701
Bon Iver: Skinny Love - k701 but the bass drum of the 580
Eddie Vedder: Hard Sun - Same as Bon Iver
Heartless Bastards: Only For You - 701. The guitar is so much better, I don't even notice the slightly less punchy bass.
Queen: Don't Stop Me Now - 701. The way this song is mixed is very instrument forward and the vocals don't stand out as much as a lot of other music. With the 580, the vocals sounded overpowered but it was hardly noticeable on the 701.

I don't know if anything in there helps with a direction I should go in. I guess I am ultimately looking to have even better clarity than the 701s with a slightly smaller soundstage and beefier bass. I know the DAC/amp is holding me back because when I swapped out the m902 for the RME ADI-2 in my stereo setup, my wife said it sounded better without me saying anything to her and she doesn't care about sound quality. I didn't A/B on the RME because of its limitations with the Sennheiser impedance.

 

[Monsterzero]

Apparently you listen to a wide variety of genres, and have realized that it can be tough to have a single pair of headphones that do it all.

I guess I am ultimately looking to have even better clarity than the 701s with a slightly smaller soundstage and beefier bass.

The K701, like the K601 before it, is known for being fantastic for classical due to that huge stage. Often times that huge stage and less than +bass leaves rock and electronica fans a bit underwhelmed.

I could suggest an HD650 to you for rock, but im guessing the narrow stage wont thrill you for classical. You might like the Beyer T1.2 but the stage is prolly too big for rock and again, bass is a bit weak.

Im biased so I will say get a ZMF Verite closed, but that doesnt leave you much wiggle room for an amp and DAC. It does everything you're looking for. Best headphone Ive ever heard.
Zach himself suggests the Beyer A20 here as a good moderately priced solid state amp for the VC, which would leave you with a bit under a grand for a DAC. Schiit is the easiest route for Americans to get decent DACs w/o breaking the bank. I have two of their DACs, the Modi and the Modi MB for my various systems around the house. The extra $150.00 for the MB version is worth every penny. Night and day difference. Personally id go up the Schiit chain as far as cash permits.

Denafrips makes good sounding DACs as does Audio GD, but now were dealing with Singapore and China respectively, which presents logistical problems should you need to send it in for repair at some point. Holo Spring is also worth checking into.

 

[moneypit]

That's an interesting option and one I would not have thought of on my own, especially closed back. Now I don't feel quite so bad by creating another "system under XX" thread. I watched your YT video review and am going through the entire thread you linked. Our music tastes don't seem too dissimilar. They look like an option I could build a system around and the end game from a can perspective.

For DAC/AMP:

My limit isn't so much a limit as a guide. The Questyle CMA-Twelve was on my list to consider and the combo would be right at my initial limit. I know I could at least demo that. It seems people have very polarized views on Shiit. I used to live about 10 minutes away from their office and am now about 1.5 hours so not very far. I am not afraid of international equipment. The Denafrips Ares II sounds very interesting. Free international shipping is a nice touch.

 

[Monsterzero]

The Questyle CMA-Twelve

Im not a fan of their products that ive heard, but ive not heard this particular one. I would encourage you to get separate amp and separate DAC.
Technology advances rather quickly and in 5 years time you might have to upgrade your DAC. Meanwhile I have amps from the 70s that I adore.

 

[moneypit]

That's true.

I just hooked up my ADI-2 to the m902 and used the RME as the DAC and the m902 as the amp. The SQ improvement was marginal on the 701s but significant on the 580s. I was considering keeping the m902 as the amp temporarily. I may still do that and see how the new cans respond. I don't know that the Beyer A20 is better than the headamp of the Grace.

 

[Monsterzero]

I don't know that the Beyer A20 is better than the headamp of the Grace.

Nor do I. Its worth noting Zach's remarks in the link I posted above regarding damping factor and output impedance and how it impacts the tonality of the VC. That being said the VC rock out of my mid 70s McIntosh 4100 as well as my Sansui 881, both of which have substantial damping factors as well as output impedance. But Zach makes these, so I defer to his knowledge and expertise.

The SQ improvement was marginal on the 701s

As i said before, the K701 is a fickle headphone when it comes to amping synergy, so it doesnt surprise me to hear you mention that.
I have had my K701s for years, also an Austrian made pair. I was using them strictly for FPS gaming. I didnt like them for music, until one day, on a whim I plugged them into my Glenn OTL and had my mind blown. Typically low ohm headphones sound like garbage via OTL amps, but Glenn worked his magic and his OTL amp turned the K701 into something amazing. The single biggest transformation ive ever heard on a headphone.

 

[moneypit]

A lot to consider. Thank you.

If I do go with the VC, I am leaning towards the Pendant amp, too. That's already over budget without the DAC but it happens...

 

[Monsterzero]

A lot to consider. Thank you.

If I do go with the VC, I am leaning towards the Pendant amp, too. That's already over budget without the DAC but it happens...

Ive heard a lot of good things about it. I was scheduled to review it, but then Covid happened.

 

[moneypit]

I impulse ordered the Denafrips Ares II. I know that is backwards as was said above but I want to see how my existing cans respond to the new DAC and it seems like it would work pretty well with the VC if I pull the trigger.

I wasn't supposed to buy anything until I knew for sure I was working remotely permanently...oops

 

[Monsterzero]

I impulse ordered the Denafrips Ares II. I know that is backwards as was said above but I want to see how my existing cans respond to the new DAC and it seems like it would work pretty well with the VC if I pull the trigger.

I wasn't supposed to buy anything until I knew for sure I was working remotely permanently...oops

Congrats. Supposedly a nice sounding R2R DAC. I lusted for the Terminator for quite awhile before I went bonkers and bought my Lampizator Atlantic TRP.

A salient point to remember is DACs, and to a much greater degree, cables, do not make much of a difference until you get into revealing high end headphones, which the VC is. I wouldnt dismiss your new DAC as wasted cash if your current headphones dont sound much different than they currently do. Wait until you get your end-game headphones before passing judgement.