Long awaited Smyth SVS Realiser NOW AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE
Apr 9, 2012 at 2:47 AM Post #1,606 of 2,910


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Yeah, I had thought about Gateway. I would also like to fly out to LA and measure at AIX. Hopefully this summer! Funds pending!
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Gateway could be very interesting since many of the High Resolution SACD and DVD-A discs were mastered there.
 
 
 
Apr 9, 2012 at 3:19 PM Post #1,607 of 2,910
I would love to go on a group trip to Gateway, but I don't see it happening. It would have to happen over winter or summer break. Otherwise school occupies all of my time.
 
I am sure it it out of my price range, but I wonder what it would cost to get some time in Akira Kurosawa Studio at Skywalker Ranch.
 
Apr 9, 2012 at 7:04 PM Post #1,610 of 2,910

More than 10 hours cramped on a airplane seat...  plus one thousand dollars with tickets, hotel etc... 
 
is it really worth it?
 
 
Quote:
If you can swing it, a trip to AIX Records is definitely worth it.  It's THAT good.   Especially if they'll do both the 5.1 and 7.1 on the same day.
 
Talk to Lorr Kramer about it.  He's the one at Smyth Research to talk to about it.



 
 
Apr 9, 2012 at 7:44 PM Post #1,611 of 2,910
If you can plan a vacation around it, it's more than worth it.
 
AIX PRIR makes a huge difference in sound quality. 
 
The weather is nice, sunny, and warm here.
 
Well, except for early summer which is mostly overcast in the morning due to marine layer fog.  But it's still nice.
 
 
Apr 9, 2012 at 9:38 PM Post #1,612 of 2,910


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Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
Well, except for early summer which is mostly overcast in the morning due to marine layer fog.


Euphemistically referred to by local TV weather people here as "night and morning low cloudiness". 
 
Seems to be never ending, but it's really perfectly normal typical May/June weather.  Burns off in the afternoon if you live out near the ocean as I do.  True marine layer fog.
 
I've seen it hang on until July some years.
 
 
Anyway, (not to gloat, but...) I'm taking my nephew who's a struggling-to-get-started "electronic musician" (he and his music partner "play a pair of Mac's" at clubs, parties, events, online, etc.) over to AIX tomorrow afternoon, just to let them experience a demonstration of the AIX room sound.  Lorr is doing a PRIR measurement tomorrow for a Realiser owner who happens to find himself in LA on business and has arranged for an AIX session right after he gets off the plane at LAX.
 
I've asked if I could bring my nephew and his partner over to just kind of hang out while he's there so that they could see the studio.  Got the OK from AIX, and I'm sure they'll be thrilled with the studio sound and the console (I've suggested they bring their own Mac's, just in case they're allowed to play them in the room).
 
Apr 9, 2012 at 9:42 PM Post #1,613 of 2,910
see you there!  let's get your nephew rocking! 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
Euphemistically referred to by local TV weather people here as "night and morning low cloudiness". 
 
Seems to be never ending, but it's really perfectly normal typical May/June weather.  Burns off in the afternoon if you live out near the ocean as I do.  True marine layer fog.
 
I've seen it hang on until July some years.
 
 
Anyway, (not to gloat, but...) I'm taking my nephew who's a struggling-to-get-started "electronic musician" (he and his music partner "play a pair of Mac's" at clubs, parties, events, online, etc.) over to AIX tomorrow afternoon, just to let them experience a demonstration of the AIX room sound.  Lorr is doing a PRIR measurement tomorrow for a Realiser owner who happens to find himself in LA on business and has arranged for an AIX session right after he gets off the plane at LAX.
 
I've asked if I could bring my nephew and his partner over to just kind of hang out while he's there so that they could see the studio.  Got the OK from AIX, and I'm sure they'll be thrilled with the studio sound and the console (I've suggested they bring their own Mac's, just in case they're allowed to play them in the room).



 
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 1:21 AM Post #1,614 of 2,910
The following topics were raised before but not actively discussed from what I recall. Any comment on the following would be much appreciated:

1. Most people don't use the realiser for  2.0 setup but mostly for movies, possibly some surround audio recordings. Why is that ? My main motivation would be feeding it with lossless stereo recordings from my mac using itunes (mainly for those recordings that need L/R crossfeed to sound natural).

2. While you can feed the realiser with high res PCM through the HDMI input, but actually it is down/resampled to 24/48 for processing and can only be exported via optical out in same 24/48 resolution. Is that right?

3. In light of number 2 above, would it still make sense to try to feed an external DAC (possibly having to go through an optical / rca spdif converter box) rather than use the analog out to a preamp/headamp?

4. The AIX theatre is mostly for getting 5.1 or 7.1 PRIRs. Does that mean the is no 2.0 setup with regular stereo speakers configuration (e.g. +/- 30-45 deg from the listener)?

5. If that is so (AIX theatre mainly intented for movie playback), any other good candidate in LA for 2.0?
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 1:58 AM Post #1,615 of 2,910
1. I can only speak for my self on this one. I enjoy the feel of listening to music with headphones. The closeness you get. I use the Realiser for music occasionally, but tend to opp against using it most of the time. I will use it with music like The Beatles that desperately needs cross feed. I need to put the Mono mixes on my list of things to buy. So for me it is a preference of presentation. I have been having a private chat with jazzfan who uses his Realiser mostly for 2 channel.
 
2/3. That is interesting that it processes the signal in 24/48, I did not know that. I don't see what the signal downsample has to do with using an external DAC. The internal DAC will be working with the same 24/48 signal. So the better DAC will do the better job. If the loss of information, down to 24/48, actually makes a difference is another discussion.
 
4. AIX is a Mastering studio, not a theater. They use B&W 801 speakers. I am guessing the two front are +/- 30 degrees, but you would have to call and verify. It is a well treated room. If you want the sound of 2 channel B&W 801 rig in a professional setup than you will be happy. If you are mainly concerned with stereo I would not bother getting the JBL PRIR.
 
5. Are you going to be in LA for some other reason? I don't see why you would fly hear for a 2 channel PRIR. That to me would be both a waste of time and money. From my research it is much harder to find a top end surround sound system than it is to find a high end 2 channel system. Maybe it is just because I live in New Orleans, but their are hundreds of music recording studios here. Most are not worth bragging about, but of course a few are very nice. I am sure Tokyo has some high end music studios with fantastic speakers used for mixing.
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 2:40 AM Post #1,616 of 2,910
I just spent a couple hours with Lorr today at AIX and so got a chance to learn a lot more about the system (both the Realiser and AIX's setup). First let me start by saying that the recreation of AIX's setup is _shocking_. It's one of the most surprising (in a good way) experiences I've had in audio. I could barely tell the difference between the speakers (testing one by one going around the room) and the "virtual speakers" coming through the headphones in terms of imaging/localization (this in particular is really wild, would NEVER have expected such accuracy on this one), tone, etc. (and this was an entry level Stax headphone amp/headphones). I found there were a couple very slight barely noticeable differences when listening very critically: (a) there was a little more upper mid and HF detail coming through the headphones (not surprising), and (b) I found the speakers to be ever so slightly warmer sounding in the upper mids. On point B, Lorr explained that since we're not taking measurements from the ear drum but rather the end of the ear canal, there will be very slight differences and for each person it's different given varying shapes of the ear canal. He indicated most don't notice it, some do and don't care and others do and care. For the last bucket, there is a manual process than can be done to tweak the EQ of the headphone measurements/config to offset this difference related to our ear canal shape and impact on frequency response (so in my case for example, I'd go increment by increment up the frequency spectrum comparing a speaker to my headphone setup until I isolated the area of slight difference, and then adjust there; this adjustment needs to be done for each headphone/amp setup you have). I was really blown away by this experience.

AIX has a fantastic multi-channel setup given the room treatment/tuning. Since I'll be doing most of my listening with 2 channel sound input into the Realiser, I'm going to track down a couple "dream systems" that are 2 channel and take measurements (once I learn how!). The 7.1/5.1 profiles from AIX can be used for 2 channel because the 2 front mains are not moved in either case and so measurements taken for them are valid for 2 ch listening. The difference between their 7.1 and 5.1 setups at AIX is that for the 7.1 they move their full size surrounds to the side channels, and add two mid-sized channels for the two rears. By way of background, measurements are taken with your head facing directly forward, and then a set while your head is facing 30 degrees to the left (looking at the left channel) and one set while looking 30 degrees to the right (looking at the right channel). In my case we did two 12 second sweeps in each of 8 channels and 6 channels respectively to maximize the signal to noise ratio of the measurements and got very clean results.

Excited to give the system a go at home when I return. Will report back. The two sources I'll use are (1) Mac Mini HDMI output, and (2) Oppo 93 with HDMI output. I'll then feed an external DAC via Toslink. What I'm excited about is that I sometimes get fatigue listening to headphones due to the lack of soundstage/imaging we get when listening to speakers in a well tuned room that better create this effect. Being able to have the best of both worlds is an exciting prospect. While I never planned on it, I know I won't be able to resist watching some movies in 7.1 with this setup, it will be a heck of a lot better than my home theater!

Last thing worth mentioning which was interesting, and it may have been covered earlier in the thread, but when chatting with Lorr about taking measurements using a truly high end reference 2 ch setup (take your pick, Magico/Spectral, Wilson Alexandria, Goldmund, etc.), he was describing how to create 5.1 measurements from these setups thereby creating virtual setups that have likely never existed as actual multi-channel setups (i.e., measure front left/right, turn around measure as rear left/right, face a speaker directly and do a center measurement; the Realiser will automatically determine the delays/levels to create a surround setup). In any event, lots of fun to be had with this unit.

This unit is WAY underappreciated IMO. There's definitely a learning curve if you want to do this yourself (ranging from getting the small mic's in your ear in an optimal way for taking measurements) to navigating the operation of the unit, however it's quite an innovation and kudo's to Lorr for what he's accomplished here.
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 2:54 AM Post #1,617 of 2,910


Quote:
 
Quote:
The following topics were raised before but not actively discussed from what I recall. Any comment on the following would be much appreciated:
1. Most people don't use the realiser for  2.0 setup but mostly for movies, possibly some surround audio recordings. Why is that ? My main motivation would be feeding it with lossless stereo recordings from my mac using itunes (mainly for those recordings that need L/R crossfeed to sound natural).

Its because of personal preference

 
Quote:
2. While you can feed the realiser with high res PCM through the HDMI input, but actually it is down/resampled to 24/48 for processing and can only be exported via optical out in same 24/48 resolution. Is that right?

Yes that's correct if you use optical out, however if you use analog out I think the signal will go as high as 96k/24b

 
Quote:
3. In light of number 2 above, would it still make sense to try to feed an external DAC (possibly having to go through an optical / rca spdif converter box) rather than use the analog out to a preamp/headamp?

If you want higher res than 48k/24b then go analog all the way.
 

 
Quote:
4. The AIX theatre is mostly for getting 5.1 or 7.1 PRIRs. Does that mean the is no 2.0 setup with regular stereo speakers configuration (e.g. +/- 30-45 deg from the listener)?

If you do a 5.1 at AIX then you can use it for 2 CH audio, the L/R front speakers are placed at +/- 30. When sending my Realiser a 2CH signal using my AIX 5.1 PRIR the Realiser only uses the L/R front speakers from the 5.1 PRIR.
 

 
Quote:
5. If that is so (AIX theatre mainly intented for movie playback), any other good candidate in LA for 2.0?

No not at all if you are using there reference 5.1/7.1 system.


 
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 7:09 AM Post #1,618 of 2,910
Thanks for the replies so far, very useful. In regard to the realizer processing at 24/48, this is just speculation on my part sorry! Reason is I don't think there's a limitation at 48kHz for an optical connection (a mac can at least output 24/88 and I think 24/96 through the optical out). If the PRIR is 3MB in size, it seems plausible it is acquired at 48kHz sample rate. Also, considering the realiser is doing 8 channels processing in real time, 24/48 sounds more realistic than 24/192 for instance.

In regards to LA, I have a business trip scheduled in socal at the end of june, hence the discussion... For 2.0, I have a paradize store here in Tokyo (Dynamic Audio) but am not sure they would accomodate...

Edit: I was checking the user manual, and taking a guess at the PRIR file resolution, it would seem like 16/44.1 based on the recorded data:
- number of signals (impulse responses): 6 speakers (5.1) x 2 ears x 3 headings (0, +/-30 deg.) = 36
- number of bytes: 2 (16 bits)
- number of samples per signal: 1 second duration (it says 850ms worth of reverb can be captured, I assume the remaining 150ms could be an exponential decay window) x 44100 (44.1kHz sample rate) = 44100
- total size in bytes: ( 36 * 2 * 44100 ) / 1024^2 = 3MB. The last .1 MB being for headers and such
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 10:46 AM Post #1,619 of 2,910
For the last bucket, there is a manual process than can be done to tweak the EQ of the headphone measurements/config to offset this difference related to our ear canal shape and impact on frequency response (so in my case for example, I'd go increment by increment up the frequency spectrum comparing a speaker to my headphone setup until I isolated the area of slight difference, and then adjust there; this adjustment needs to be done for each headphone/amp setup you have). I was really blown away by this experience.

For me, the manual EQ makes a noticeable improvement. When I alternate between two presets (both using the same PRIR, but one using my unmodified HPEQ, and the other using my modified HPEQ) and compare them to the real room, the modified HPEQ provides a closer match to the real room.

You can do the manual EQ before going to AIX or any other studios. That is, you can make your own PRIR at home or wherever (any speakers and any room will do, and even just 1 channel is enough), and then you listen to that PRIR while doing the manual EQ, which modifies your HPEQ. Later, when you go to the studio, you bring your modified HPEQ and your headphone/amp setup.
 
Apr 11, 2012 at 1:39 PM Post #1,620 of 2,910
Your post makes me want to fly straight away to LA...
 
I'd like to have experienced Smyth personnel  (or anyone capable) making my PRIR on a good room in NYC, but unfortunately it seems it's not gonna happen...
triportsad.gif

 
I sent an email to Smyth Research about this (asking for a 5.1 studio/room recommendation) but they couldn't even be bothered replying.
triportsad.gif

 

 
Quote:
I just spent a couple hours with Lorr today at AIX and so got a chance to learn a lot more about the system (both the Realiser and AIX's setup). First let me start by saying that the recreation of AIX's setup is _shocking_. It's one of the most surprising (in a good way) experiences I've had in audio. I could barely tell the difference between the speakers (testing one by one going around the room) and the "virtual speakers" coming through the headphones in terms of imaging/localization (this in particular is really wild, would NEVER have expected such accuracy on this one), tone, etc. (and this was an entry level Stax headphone amp/headphones). I found there were a couple very slight barely noticeable differences when listening very critically: (a) there was a little more upper mid and HF detail coming through the headphones (not surprising), and (b) I found the speakers to be ever so slightly warmer sounding in the upper mids. On point B, Lorr explained that since we're not taking measurements from the ear drum but rather the end of the ear canal, there will be very slight differences and for each person it's different given varying shapes of the ear canal. He indicated most don't notice it, some do and don't care and others do and care. For the last bucket, there is a manual process than can be done to tweak the EQ of the headphone measurements/config to offset this difference related to our ear canal shape and impact on frequency response (so in my case for example, I'd go increment by increment up the frequency spectrum comparing a speaker to my headphone setup until I isolated the area of slight difference, and then adjust there; this adjustment needs to be done for each headphone/amp setup you have). I was really blown away by this experience.
AIX has a fantastic multi-channel setup given the room treatment/tuning. Since I'll be doing most of my listening with 2 channel sound input into the Realiser, I'm going to track down a couple "dream systems" that are 2 channel and take measurements (once I learn how!). The 7.1/5.1 profiles from AIX can be used for 2 channel because the 2 front mains are not moved in either case and so measurements taken for them are valid for 2 ch listening. The difference between their 7.1 and 5.1 setups at AIX is that for the 7.1 they move their full size surrounds to the side channels, and add two mid-sized channels for the two rears. By way of background, measurements are taken with your head facing directly forward, and then a set while your head is facing 30 degrees to the left (looking at the left channel) and one set while looking 30 degrees to the right (looking at the right channel). In my case we did two 12 second sweeps in each of 8 channels and 6 channels respectively to maximize the signal to noise ratio of the measurements and got very clean results.
Excited to give the system a go at home when I return. Will report back. The two sources I'll use are (1) Mac Mini HDMI output, and (2) Oppo 93 with HDMI output. I'll then feed an external DAC via Toslink. What I'm excited about is that I sometimes get fatigue listening to headphones due to the lack of soundstage/imaging we get when listening to speakers in a well tuned room that better create this effect. Being able to have the best of both worlds is an exciting prospect. While I never planned on it, I know I won't be able to resist watching some movies in 7.1 with this setup, it will be a heck of a lot better than my home theater!
Last thing worth mentioning which was interesting, and it may have been covered earlier in the thread, but when chatting with Lorr about taking measurements using a truly high end reference 2 ch setup (take your pick, Magico/Spectral, Wilson Alexandria, Goldmund, etc.), he was describing how to create 5.1 measurements from these setups thereby creating virtual setups that have likely never existed as actual multi-channel setups (i.e., measure front left/right, turn around measure as rear left/right, face a speaker directly and do a center measurement; the Realiser will automatically determine the delays/levels to create a surround setup). In any event, lots of fun to be had with this unit.
This unit is WAY underappreciated IMO. There's definitely a learning curve if you want to do this yourself (ranging from getting the small mic's in your ear in an optimal way for taking measurements) to navigating the operation of the unit, however it's quite an innovation and kudo's to Lorr for what he's accomplished here.



 
 

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