[rutter]

I'm using the planar Hifiman Edition X v2.

 

[omniweltall]

@Baldr

Dear Mike,

I usually put the Loki after the Mimby and before the Saga.

Is it possible to put the Loki after the Saga and before the amp instead? Something like this: Mimby -> Saga -> Loki -> Magni 3.

I tried this and there was a loud hum. Was wondering if I'm not supposed to do this. The reason why I wanna do it is so that the Loki can be used with multiple DACs.

 

[treecloud]

I experimented with my Loki on several sets of HPs. Not all of them responded positively to excessive adjustments. Especially the 20Hz knob. With some HPs, mostly dynamic, when turning the bass up, it just got boomy. They couldn't handle the extra bass gain. My planars are really the only ones that responded favorably. Any adjustments were easily apparent and the change in sound was what was expected.
So, the Loki is not going 'work' in every setup.

I've also noticed dynamic driver headphones cannot take increases in bass EQ gracefully. My guess is it's because these drivers, being small full range moving coil designs, become non linear relatively quickly. Think of it this way: if you took a typical dynamic headphone driver out of the headphone and mounted it on a speaker box you would have a driver that could only function as a tweeter.

The same would be true for a headphone planar driver too, but for some reason they have greater bass headroom in context of headphones. I'd guess that's because of the constrained edge design of planar drivers, perhaps combined with properties of driver elasticity.

In any case I've noticed this with electrostatic and planar magnetic headphones, they simply take bass EQ much better than dynamic driver headphones. There may be exceptions to this, my experience is limited to 3 examples of each type, but in each of the 6 cases the result was pretty much exactly the same.

 

[treecloud]

It doesn't do that much up to 2:30, as described by Schiit. It's not the amazing device it was made out to be, but perhaps still useful. By the way, out of curiosity, are older equalizers really that bad that this thing comes out with four knobs and some people think it's a big deal? I was expecting a lot, and while it might have merit, I think some people were exaggerating.

There are basically two types of equalizers, one for broad relatively subtle corrections of tonal balance, the other for fixing drastic problems in relatively narrow band situations. Up to very recently most EQs on the market were of the latter variety, but ironically they are the least useful for most listeners.

Simple bass and treble corrections on older receivers and such are of the former variety and can be quite useful if they also happen to be reasonably transparent. You actually have control of three bands with simple bass and treble controls, midrange is controlled also by moving bass and treble up or down relative to midrange.

Typically also, of the (very) few examples of broad range tonal balance type EQs (other than simple bass and treble on receivers etc), greater adjustment of the frequency extremes is needed relative to midrange. In other words, not much adjustment is typically needed in the midrange, if any. So those controls can be more gradual acting and not need to have as much total range of adjustment. This is how Loki is designed. These types of EQ, when one comes to appreciate what they do, can be very useful in taking a system that last few yards toward the highest levels of musicality that particular system is capable of. It's one of those subtle, but not subtle, things.

EQs meant to fix drastic narrow band problems are less and less useful as audio record and playback technology improves. It's one of the reasons they are not seen on market much anymore, and it's quite possible EQs more similar to Loki will become more popular because they remain useful in the context of every room is different, and speakers and headphones remain the components with the most aural variability of all.

The EQs we see in digital systems are modeled on the narrow band format, presumably because that is what is familiar. These are more complex and so more difficult to use in the context of subtle tonal correction (they type most often needed), but it can still be done...it requires more familiarity and skill with tone correction however, the type of skill a mastering engineer would posses for example. In other words it can be easier to "get it wrong" than right with one of these devices if you are "new" to using EQ.

For function, for most listeners, Loki is a very capable design as you become familiar with what it does. In terms of value it's off the chart good IMHO.

 

[omniweltall]

There are basically two types of equalizers, one for broad relatively subtle corrections of tonal balance, the other for fixing drastic problems in relatively narrow band situations. Up to very recently most EQs on the market were of the latter variety, but ironically they are the least useful for most listeners.

Simple bass and treble corrections on older receivers and such are of the former variety and can be quite useful if they also happen to be reasonably transparent. You actually have control of three bands with simple bass and treble controls, midrange is controlled also by moving bass and treble up or down relative to midrange.

Typically also, of the (very) few examples of broad range tonal balance type EQs (other than simple bass and treble on receivers etc), greater adjustment of the frequency extremes is needed relative to midrange. In other words, not much adjustment is typically needed in the midrange, if any. So those controls can be more gradual acting and not need to have as much total range of adjustment. This is how Loki is designed. These types of EQ, when one comes to appreciate what they do, can be very useful in taking a system that last few yards toward the highest levels of musicality that particular system is capable of. It's one of those subtle, but not subtle, things.

EQs meant to fix drastic narrow band problems are less and less useful as audio record and playback technology improves. It's one of the reasons they are not seen on market much anymore, and it's quite possible EQs more similar to Loki will become more popular because they remain useful in the context of every room is different, and speakers and headphones remain the components with the most aural variability of all.

The EQs we see in digital systems are modeled on the narrow band format, presumably because that is what is familiar. These are more complex and so more difficult to use in the context of subtle tonal correction (they type most often needed), but it can still be done...it requires more familiarity and skill with tone correction however, the type of skill a mastering engineer would posses for example. In other words it can be easier to "get it wrong" than right with one of these devices if you are "new" to using EQ.

For function, for most listeners, Loki is a very capable design as you become familiar with what it does. In terms of value it's off the chart good IMHO.

Very good explanation. Thank you.

 

[exdmd]

I agree Loki is incredible value. Just wish there was one more band at 5 kHz or that Schitt came out with a Loki 2 with 6 bands matching the long discontinued Cello Audio Palette: 15 Hz, 120 Hz, 500 Hz, 2 kHz, 5 kHz, 25 kHz.

From Cello Audio Palette owners manual:

25 kHz: extreme high frequencies,overtones, air and spatial components, including upper parts of cymbals, strings, etc.This control does affect much more than just the upper most sounds-you will probably be surprised at how much you use it.

5 kHz: the heart of the high frequency range, with a broad effect. Use in conjunction with the 25kHz control to achieve the best high frequency sound.

2 kHz: the nasal area of voices and instruments is affected by this control.

500 Hz: the "upper warmth" control can remove muddiness from some piano record-
ings, or warm up a sound which is too thin.

120 Hz: a very powerful control which determines the "body" or "lower warmth" of
the sound.

15 Hz: the lowest bass information such as drums, organ pedals, string bass notes, etc.

 

[omniweltall]

I agree Loki is incredible value. Just wish there was one more band at 5 kHz or that Schitt came out with a Loki 2 with 6 bands matching the long discontinued Cello Audio Palette: 15 Hz, 120 Hz, 500 Hz, 2 kHz, 5 kHz, 25 kHz.

From Cello Audio Palette owners manual:

Agreed. These FR would be very nice.

I would also like a balanced input/output just in case I have a balanced DAC.

 

[PanusKatus]

Elears have a pronounced dip in FR at 5 kHz. Unfortunately Loki adjusts at 20 Hz, 400 Hz, 2 kHz and 8 kHz. May not be ideal for Elears; I would try slight boost on 2 kHz and 8 kHz. The PM3 probably need a boost at 20 Hz, 400 Hz. Tyll's measurements show a sharp dip at 6 kHz the Loki may be unable to correct you will just have to experiment to get best sound for your ears. Again try slight boost on 2 kHz and 8 kHz. I really hope Schiit comes out with a Loki 2 with an extra knob for adjustment at 5 kHz.

Many thanks. Very useful.

 

[treecloud]

I agree Loki is incredible value. Just wish there was one more band at 5 kHz or that Schitt came out with a Loki 2 with 6 bands matching the long discontinued Cello Audio Palette: 15 Hz, 120 Hz, 500 Hz, 2 kHz, 5 kHz, 25 kHz.

From Cello Audio Palette owners manual:

Agree...in a Bifrost size case...would be pretty sweet.

 

[talmadge]

I've also noticed dynamic driver headphones cannot take increases in bass EQ gracefully. My guess is it's because these drivers, being small full range moving coil designs, become non linear relatively quickly. Think of it this way: if you took a typical dynamic headphone driver out of the headphone and mounted it on a speaker box you would have a driver that could only function as a tweeter.

The same would be true for a headphone planar driver too, but for some reason they have greater bass headroom in context of headphones. I'd guess that's because of the constrained edge design of planar drivers, perhaps combined with properties of driver elasticity.

In any case I've noticed this with electrostatic and planar magnetic headphones, they simply take bass EQ much better than dynamic driver headphones. There may be exceptions to this, my experience is limited to 3 examples of each type, but in each of the 6 cases the result was pretty much exactly the same.

At least one exception would be my sony Z1R's. Responds nicely to the 20 hz knob.

 

[exdmd]

Agree...in a Bifrost size case...would be pretty sweet.

Absolutely, and like @omniweltall mentioned with both single ended and balanced inputs/outputs. I think they would sell a Schiit-load at $495. I'd pay more as long as they could sell under $1000.

 

[VRacer-111]

Absolutely, and like @omniweltall mentioned with both single ended and balanced inputs/outputs. I think they would sell a Schiit-load at $495. I'd pay more as long as they could sell under $1000.

Under $500 would be acceptable to me. If you start creeping to $1k you would have to compete with the RME ADI-2 DAC, which has 5 band fully customizeable PEQ built in to an excellent reference class DAC/amp.

 

[Zachik]

Agree...in a Bifrost size case...would be pretty sweet.

Absolutely, and like @omniweltall mentioned with both single ended and balanced inputs/outputs. I think they would sell a Schiit-load at $495. I'd pay more as long as they could sell under $1000.

...and PLEASE use better knobs!
The ones on the Loki are looking and feeling very cheap.

 

[omniweltall]

Under $500 would be acceptable to me. If you start creeping to $1k you would have to compete with the RME ADI-2 DAC, which has 5 band fully customizeable PEQ built in to an excellent reference class DAC/amp.

Isnt the RME a digital EQ? There are free ones. What I want is analog EQ.

I wouldnt worry abt pricing with Schiit products. They have been very fair. Unlike certain brands.

Loki is the next best thing after ketchup. Better knobs would be nice though

 

[FLTWS]

Isnt the RME a digital EQ? There are free ones. What I want is analog EQ.

I wouldnt worry abt pricing with Schiit products. They have been very fair. Unlike certain brands.

Loki is the next best thing after ketchup. Better knobs would be nice though

And knobs with the "null" notch at the 12 o'clock position would be nice.