[sleepkyng]

thanks for all the responses - i'm fine with tinkering with computers - i'm mainly interested in the free programs.

i have pirated a lot of stuff in the past for windows as a student, but as i'm getting older and start to make money, i'd like to move away from that.

so cracked versions of what-have you are out for me.

i like the idea of free software, of potential.

maybe i'll just bite the bullet and get a mac again

 

[plainsong]

I'm on Ubuntu right now while my Macbook is in the shop. The Apple software is far and away miles better than Windows or Linux, but the hardware is another matter. This is the 2nd time it's in the shop for the "bluetooth not available" bug.

Linux is still not ready for prime time. I'm sorry. It's great at making old computers run a bit better, but that's about it. Do you have a PDA or Smartphone, for example? Unless it's an obsolete OS, you won't be able to sync it like you could with a Mac or Windows.

Do you have a soundcard? Do you want it to work? Good luck. Do you have a video card? Would you like for it to be fully supported? Good luck.

Would you like to be able to watch Youtube stuff or anything that requires a flash plugin? Good luck, if you're using Ubuntu. The stable release won't install the flash plugin properly. You'll to search for it, install it, notice it doesn't work, google the problem, and then find the solution.

What you'll find once you stumble over one of many Ubuntu bugs (such as lack of hibernation or sleep for certain video cards), is that the bugs are logged and confirmed, and no one ever solves it.

And that's the STABLE version.

Yes, it's less bloated on an older system, that's why I'm using it, but otherwise, this is so not ready for prime time, and about a gazillion linux-evangelists will come and flame me to hell for saying it, but it's true. OsX has the same goodies and actually works.

 

[FalconP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have a soundcard? Do you want it to work? Good luck. Do you have a video card? Would you like for it to be fully supported? Good luck. Would you like to be able to watch Youtube stuff or anything that requires a flash plugin? Good luck, if you're using Ubuntu. The stable release won't install the flash plugin properly. You'll to search for it, install it, notice it doesn't work, google the problem, and then find the solution. What you'll find once you stumble over one of many Ubuntu bugs (such as lack of hibernation or sleep for certain video cards), is that the bugs are logged and confirmed, and no one ever solves it. And that's the STABLE version.

I have all these working under Kubuntu, with hardly any configuration at all.

Sound and Nvidia graphics work out of the box (ATI graphics can be tricky though). No brains is involved in using the Flash installer by Adobe.

 

[sleepkyng]

one thing that seems apparent is that each linux distro install is case-specific depending on the type of computer you have.

n'est pas?

 

[cosmotron]

I would say give Linux a shot. Try out the live CDs of a few different distributions with large user bases and see which works best with your hardware.

If most things work out-of-the-box, great! If many things are not working, try the next live CD.

If you get to the end of your live CD pile and none of them work at all, but, you still want to get some form of Linux working on your computer, then start Googling for help (odds are that someone, somewhere, has had the same issues you are having and have found a solution one way or another).

When people wish you good luck with getting your hardware to function, that's being a bit critical because usually all it takes to get stuff working is running a command or two to either install a package or edit a file.

Best of luck on your journey!

(Also, a great website for Linux help is LinuxQuestions.org)
(Another thing, it's ironic that plainsong was talking about that flash issue and things sitting in bug trackers never being solved, because that bug report in the Ubuntu bug tracker has been resolved: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...ee/+bug/173890)

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have a soundcard? Do you want it to work? Good luck.

Yup... worked right out of the box.


Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have a video card? Would you like for it to be fully supported? Good luck.

Yup... basic video worked out of the box, got everything else working by downloading the drivers off the nvidia website. Didn't even have to reboot the computer.


Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would you like to be able to watch Youtube stuff or anything that requires a flash plugin? Good luck

Yup... just downloaded the flash plugin and it works smoother than on my Windows XP system.


And this is all on Slackware, which is ancient and does very little automagic configuration for you. Yet all this stuff worked with no trouble at all.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by uzziah /img/forum/go_quote.gif it bothers me that linux-dudes think that everyone who wants to try linux gives a **** about why their computer works; this is the great problem with programmers: they don't design well for non-nerds. this guy may not care much about why the ****ing computer works, he just wants it to work,

I'm a computer scientist, and I totally agree with this sentiment. It is pretty lame to shift the blame on the standard user as lacking "interest" or skills to join Linux. It is the job of the OS/shell designers to make it easy for the OS users to love using that OS. That means ease of use, reliability, consistency, intuitiveness, hardware support, and many other things that the OS can and must still improve upon for massive desktop adoption.

It's silly to expect the standard computer user to start learning regular expressions and shell script programming to really "get" the OS and unleash its power. Absolutely lame.

 

[cosmotron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a computer scientist, and I totally agree with this sentiment. It is pretty lame to shift the blame on the standard user as lacking "interest" or skills to join Linux. It is the job of the OS/shell designers to make it easy for the OS users to love using that OS. That means ease of use, reliability, consistency, intuitiveness, hardware support, and many other things that the OS can and must still improve upon for massive desktop adoption.

The thing is, it isn't really anyone's job. Remember, this is open source software; if you think you can do a better job or spot things that aren't done right, you're given the great opportunity to do something about it!

Also, I have been using Linux for about 5 years now and have never needed to make up my own regex for anything. Sure, sometimes it makes things easier, but, is never required...

 

[goldenratiophi]

Yeah, I've never got the Linux elite shooing newbs away from Linux. I first installed Mandrake Linux (now Mandriva) in 2003, and I had fun with it long before I learned my 1337 sk1llz.

 

[ThomasJB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm a computer scientist, and I totally agree with this sentiment. It is pretty lame to shift the blame on the standard user as lacking "interest" or skills to join Linux. It is the job of the OS/shell designers to make it easy for the OS users to love using that OS. That means ease of use, reliability, consistency, intuitiveness, hardware support, and many other things that the OS can and must still improve upon for massive desktop adoption. It's silly to expect the standard computer user to start learning regular expressions and shell script programming to really "get" the OS and unleash its power. Absolutely lame.

This is true, but at the same time, it is a different OS, and it's unreasonable to expect that there be no learning curve whatsoever. The user is going to have to spend some time getting used to the new environment, and it's not right to claim that Linux is somehow at fault if the user gives up on it without even making an attempt to learn the Linux way of doing things. Which doesn't usually involve regex or bash scripting, but does encourage at least a passing familiarity with the command line. I run into people who have an unreasonable hatred of the console, who believe that the GUI is such a pinnacle of OS design, that they assume the Windows way must be best, but often the console is the fastest and most efficient way to carry out certain tasks.

And regarding hardware support, it's entirely unreasonable to blame the OS developers for not writing drivers for every piece of hardware in existence. After all, Windows comes with drivers for far less hardware than any common Linux distro. It's the hardware manufacturers' fault for not writing Linux drivers.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by uzziah /img/forum/go_quote.gif it bothers me that linux-dudes think that everyone who wants to try linux gives a **** about why their computer works; this is the great problem with programmers: they don't design well for non-nerds.

You DO know that linux was created by nerds for nerds, right?

You are not the target audience. Go buy a mac. Leave me and my chosen OS alone. Linux doesn't need or want you.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif You DO know that linux was created by nerds for nerds, right? You are not the target audience. Go buy a mac. Leave me and my chosen OS alone. Linux doesn't need or want you.

Absolutely ridiculous position. You better check the history of Linux and the GNU project, and the ideals and goals of Linus Torvald in writing the Kernel, and of Richard Stallman in completing the GNU project. Check in what part of their manifestos they say they wanted an operating system "just for nerds."

 

[plainsong]

But what happens when you really don't have time to be manually editing conf files just to get the nvidia driver to wake up after hibernate?

Sometimes it's not a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of patience for putting up with crap like that.

Linux has come a long way, but it still has a long way to go. I knew the evangelists wouldn't like my airing of the dirty laundry.

 

[anoobis]

Many posts seem to assume that the raison d'etre of an OS is to be popular. Generally this is true, Microsoft, Sun etc. are all there to make money, so their OS needs to be popular.

Linux is slightly different in this respect. Yes, it needs some level of popularity to drive it forward but the underlying aim is to provide a stable, efficient processing platform (no, I'm not being strictly accurate with the terms linux, OS, system).

So, linux is what it is and there is a learning curve to it. Generally, power/functionality is considered more important than accessibility. Roughly translated (as far as users are concerned), this means that a lot can be accomplished with commandline tools that may just not be possible/feasible with GUI applications. This isn't because programmers are trying to prevent new users from getting to grips with the system it's because the command line (shell) is so much more flexible and powerful.

I would suggest that most linux users are part of the scientific community and that they have scientific computational needs. Changing the system in the ways suggested would undoubtly result in a loss of functionality for the primary user base, which surely is unacceptable?

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Absolutely ridiculous position. You better check the history of Linux and the GNU project, and the ideals and goals of Linus Torvald in writing the Kernel, and of Richard Stallman in completing the GNU project. Check in what part of their manifestos they say they wanted an operating system "just for nerds."

Stallman is an idealist and irrelevant to the discussion. And the GNU project isn't anywhere near complete - you could argue that it's off to a slow start, in fact.

If he were relivant, I'd suggest that you ask him why EMACS is so complex, and why the HURD microkernel took so long to appear and why nobody cares that it finally works.

I'm quite well acquainted with the history of linux. Linus wrote the original kernel for himself, and decided to share it.

You're missing the point that most linux development is done for free, by people who want it for themselves or for a particular community. What linux development is paid outright is usually done for corporate back-end use, or with some pie in the sky dream of fixed-use corporate desktop deployment.

There are two wealthy and powerful companies maintaining operating systems for end-users. I suggest that you pick one and stick with it.