[AudibleLegend]

Something needs to be done about the storage capacity...the cost of flash memory is only going to continually decline, so if this thing isn't delivered until, say, Spring 2016, they should just go ahead and double every one's storage size, partially as a thank you to people for waiting for so long, but also because it's ridiculous to send out a bunch of 64 GB Waves when we could be seeing 128 GB DAPs as the new "standard" at some point in 2016. As of now, the 512 GB SD card isn't "realistic" in terms of price, but then again people have already paid through the nose for 256 GB Wave models....and soon enough, you'll likely be able to buy a 512GB SD card on Amazon for $100 or thereabouts. Taking two years in finishing this project means people paid hundreds of dollars to upgrade storage capacity when the difference in those SD cards is now like $30. 

 

[doublea71]

Good luck with that. I'll be happy if it sounds great and isn't buggy.

 

[nudd]

Of course it is different, that is what I said...and even the "easier" project of releasing a designed amp is running into not insignificant delays. The latest "update" from LH does seem like there is progress (Larry seems to have taken over these, which is a good thing). "I'm just Sittin' at the Dock Of The Bay, watching the tide roll away..."

 
They aren't even at the stage where they can say they are provisioning parts and running into supply chain issues, except to the extent that the memory chips for 32gb onboard flash is so obsolete they cannot even source it anyway.
 
If you extrapolate this to Cavalli, then AFTER Larry freezes the design (eg, by some miracle they get to a production ready stage in December), there will be at least another 4 months of delay while they sort out supply chain issues.
 
And Alex is only dealing with 1 model, no 10 versions of each model with multiple options.
 
So I think another 8 months of wait (especially for backers of the initial and more rare upgrades) is almost inevitable.

 

[woody88]

does anyone know if there is a production update link to the wave? I can no longer find it on LH's website. This thing is just a mess. LH keep on wanting to pump out products in their heads, while ignoring the customers who have paid for the wave a decade ago. I'd be happy to see a Wave in my hands by 2017. but what's the point, it would be terribly outdated by the time it comes out.

 

[nudd]

There will likely be a GO v3 with an all new fangled output stage and DAC chip that will be like omg so much better than the other ones and cheaper and better sounding than the Wave.

This is basically how they hyped the GO v2 ("it sounds better than the Pulse!").

 

[LargoCantabile]

Will the new REGEN USB from Up tone Audio be irrelevant to a future Geek Wave user?

 

[germay0653]

  Will the new REGEN USB from Up tone Audio be irrelevant to a future Geek Wave user?

Not if your feeding your new Wave via USB.  If your wirelessly or Bluetooth streaming to the REGEN then it  won't help as it's for USB only.

 

[doctorjazz]

Using the Regen with the Geek Out Special Edition, improves the sound, likely be the same with the Wave using usb.

 

[T.R.A.N.C.E.]

I don't understand something, what is behind the discrepancies in measurements between geek out v2 and geek out v2+:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H48mtKT62s
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imv5-OhQbZI
 
The v2 has -150dB Noise Floor and the v2+ has -140dB Noise Floor, aka the v2+ is considerably worse.
 
And the other measurements like THD also follow suit, it's supposed to be the other way around with v2+ better than v2...

 

[T.R.A.N.C.E.]

^ I found out what is behind those measurements discrepancies. V2+ was measured with balanced output, and V2 was measured with single ended output. Both were measured at 300ohm load with 45k bandwith meaning the results are directly comparable, and because V2 and V2+ should be very similar in circuitry these results shine some light on single ended vs balanced with the geek out units, which is applicable to the Wave because it will be using the same circuitry as the geek out's:
 
Geek Out V2 single ended:
Vrms: 2.2v
THD: 0.0009
NF: -150dB
vN: 6uV
Resolution: 19bit
 
Geek Out V2+ balanced:
Vrms: 4v
THD: 0.002
NF: -140dB
vN: 13uV
Resolution: 17.5bit
 
So we can see balanced doubles power but also doubles distortion and voltage noise, the noise floor is also raised from -150dB to -140dB, this means the actual resolution of the device is dropping from around 19bit to about 17.5bit. 
People should think twice about balanced and dual dacs, they do not mean improvements unless implemented in a certain way. Geek out or Wave Balanced is just doubling distortion and noise in exchange for power, so it is a trade-off, not an improvement, and the drop in resolution is not a worthwhile trade-off, unless you absolutely need the extra power, so I feel bad for people with iems running out to get balanced cables looking for improvements when it is the contrary in this case.
 
Balanced along with dual dacs are just marketing unless done right. It comes down to the implementation.  For example with Pono player balanced actually drops the noise floor 5% unlike these Geek outs where noise floor is raised 6-7% droppig resolution to 17.5 bits.
If not done right balanced and dual dacs can worsen performance over a single dac and single ended device.
 
Just to be clear the single ended spec of Geek out at 19 bit resolution is fantastic, and is equal to the AK240 single ended which also has 19 bit resolution. So I'm not knocking the base engineering of LH, obviously there is some solid engineering here. For reference, Pono has 18 bit resolution when balanced and 17.5 bit resolution when single ended and, so Pono balanced has higher resolution than Geek out balanced, but Geek out single ended has higher resolution than Pono. In the end both single ended and balanced from Geek are both good.
 
What I am knocking about LH is that you can see they only implemented balanced because people asked for it, not because it was an improvement (on the contrary). They should be more open in discussing these things, they should let people know that balanced isn't all they think it is in their own device, but instead they decide to capitalize on peoples wishful thinking to make money with a V2 version of the device. For Pono there is a legitimate improvement in power and SQ with balanced, for Geek out and Wave it is lowering SQ with more power and more noise.
 
It highlights that LH are capable of very good engineering when Larry is able to design what he wants, aka I'm sure if you asked Larry if balanced is in anyway needed in a dap, he would say No, because that's how his engineering style is. While Pono from Charles is built from the ground up to his own engineering style, he did not implement balanced because anyone asked, but only because his engineering style actually benefits from it. Pono is not perfect, output impedance is 3 ohm etc. But at least Charles stayed true to his own design, while LH too often build products to the tune of where the money is at.
 
Now the advantages of the power gained from geek balanced will come in handy for some applications, and is very powerful at 4Vrms, but certainly not for iems or portables, where the loss in resolution is more important to prevent. Pono is 1.2Vrms single ended and 2Vrms Balanced, so the Geek out is twice as powerful in each respective mode.
 
Basically I don't have any problem with the performance figures from Geek out, what I have issue with is LH communication and marketing strategies. You would think LH would have the courtesy to mention these traits of their balanced amp when they have people paying big money for upgrades called "THD" and "IEM".

 

[doctorjazz]

Great impressions...I have a Pono, waiting on a Wave, balanced is pretty much considered the way to go with Pono (which I love), and I have cables for it for my HEK balanced, and I'm waiting on a balanced adaptor for my acs Encores. I'm not sure the measurements will directly be an audible improvement (or loss) of audible SQ, but they're not encouraging.

 

[glassmonkey]

Is it really fair to compare those numbers? Was the Pono tested with a 300 ohm load? Maybe I need more explanation of how the load would interact with the numbers.

 

[T.R.A.N.C.E.]

The main issue is the Noise Floor. Geek's noise floor increased substantially in balanced, where the load is divided between two separate amps, so the load became easier yet the noise floor increased, so it wouldn't make any difference what load is used, it would show the same trait regardless. Main reason Pono's noise floor drops is because it uses a self regulating/correcting design unlike the Geek's static design.

 

[nudd]

The main issue is the Noise Floor. Geek's noise floor increased substantially in balanced, where the load is divided between two separate amps, so the load became easier yet the noise floor increased, so it wouldn't make any difference what load is used, it would show the same trait regardless. Main reason Pono's noise floor drops is because it uses a self regulating/correcting design unlike the Geek's static design.

But Pono also has its own problems with low impedence and variable impedence loads. See Innerfidelity's review.

Right now if the wave was released and only did as good as the GO v2+ I would take it.

 

[T.R.A.N.C.E.]

Yes I already acknowledged Pono's output impedance in previous post (3 ohm). It's not really a problem for 16 ohm headphones, and at 32 ohm is completely nullified. Pono can be had for $250 from Fry's one day sales pretty often, it presents incomparable value imo, You are getting discrete Class A self correcting amp, balanced, discrete IV stage, strictly metal film caps in analog stage, etc, there really is nothing else like it, at any price, let alone the small sum it sales for.