[rgs9200m]

Sorry for cluttering the thread, but thanks again Torq. That was a good read.

 

[Arbenius]

I'm a latecomer to this discussion, but I'm really enjoying it. I see an Yggy in my future, and am learning a lot.
 
If (and I realize that's a big if) you were to add some DACs to your review list, I'd like to suggest some from Resonessence Labs.
 
The are a bunch of senior engineers from ESS, so they know their way around the Sabre DAC.
 
I have yet to hear any of their offerings, but I'm quite curious.
 
Thanks for a great thread!
 
...rick

 

[Torq]

  I'm a latecomer to this discussion, but I'm really enjoying it. I see an Yggy in my future, and am learning a lot.
 
If (and I realize that's a big if) you were to add some DACs to your review list, I'd like to suggest some from Resonessence Labs.
 
The are a bunch of senior engineers from ESS, so they know their way around the Sabre DAC.
 
I have yet to hear any of their offerings, but I'm quite curious.
 
Thanks for a great thread!
 
...rick

 
Glad you're enjoying the thread!
 
I'm afraid I won't be adding more DACs to the list at this point - in fact I'm considering removing a few ... not quite to that point yet, but I'm getting there.  Mostly on account of the nature of the write-ups.  They're feeling very repetitive, partly I'm sure because there's a constant to all of them ... Yggdrasil.  And each successive one I produce makes me sound, to myself, ever more like a stuck record ...
 
Originally I intended to be extremely terse, and ideally humorous*, with each set of impressions.  It hasn't worked out that way.  Part of that is because I really wasn't planning, when I first posted, to do more than collect a list of manufacturer's/DACs that I wasn't already aware of.  And beyond some inline discussion of those items, I hadn't thought about doing an all-up comparison and "shoot out" in any public form at all.
 
I was just going to take the suggestions, listen to them as I could easily manage, and then buy something.  Maybe write up some notes on the overall impressions once that was done.
 
Things seem to have evolved a bit from there!
 
--
 
(*Comments like "sounds almost as bad as it looks" or "clearly designed by someone that was doing a bad Beethoven impression and wanted to inflict as much visual pain on the world as they already had auditory before they lost their eyesight too" or perhaps "bats and screech-owls will love this" are briefly cute ... and then become tiresome and aren't really of use to anyone.)

 

[phase0]

   
Glad you're enjoying the thread!
 
I'm afraid I won't be adding more DACs to the list at this point - in fact I'm considering removing a few ... not quite to that point yet, but I'm getting there.  Mostly on account of the nature of the write-ups.  They're feeling very repetitive, partly I'm sure because there's a constant to all of them ... Yggdrasil.  And each successive one I produce makes me sound, to myself, ever more like a stuck record ...

 
Well just to echo other's comments. I'm enjoying reading your comments and write ups so thank you for that. I haven't felt like 'hey this guy is a stuck record'. Then again I did join the Yggy fan club a little over a month ago.

 

[artur9]

   
I'm afraid I won't be adding more DACs to the list at this point - in fact I'm considering removing a few ... not quite to that point yet, but I'm getting there.  Mostly on account of the nature of the write-ups.  They're feeling very repetitive, partly I'm sure because there's a constant to all of them ... Yggdrasil.  And each successive one I produce makes me sound, to myself, ever more like a stuck record ...

 
Please continue posting your impressions on the various DACs.  Even a one liner would be better than nothing.
 
In terms of humor, I found the "I could buy all the other DACs on the list for the price of the Nagra and all of them are better" priceless.

 

[Torq]

   
Please continue posting your impressions on the various DACs.  Even a one liner would be better than nothing.
 
In terms of humor, I found the "I could buy all the other DACs on the list for the price of the Nagra and all of them are better" priceless.

Oh, I'm not going to bail on posting my remaining impressions on the stuff I've auditioned already (all those DACs in blue), I was just contemplating removing some of those that I haven't yet listened to from the list.  That might happen organically as auditions for some of them are hard to come by (a couple I planned to do while I was in Europe a couple of weeks ago, but those didn't all happen).
 
And, in fact, here's some more impressions ...

 

[Torq]

Linn

Before talking about the individual units here, I should explain what they actually are, as they are much more than just DACs.  In short, each DSM, referred to as a “Network Music Player” unit comprises:

 

1. An Ethernet streamer (among the first products of this type)
2. DAC w/ custom FPGA up-sampling and filtering
3. Headphone amplifier
4. Phono stage (MM/MC selectable) w/ RIAA EQ handled in the digital domain
5. Analog and Digital pre-amp (14 inputs, mixed between analog and digital)
6. RCA and XLR analog outputs
7. Digital outputs (HDMI, TOSLINK, COAX)
8. Space Optimization (room mode/speaker position correction processing)
9. 4x Exakt Links (a proprietary Linn technology, see below).

 
They either pull files over Ethernet from an DLNA/UPnP/OpenHome server, stream from TIDAL, QOBUZ, Tune-In Radio, AirPlay, Songcast - or play a local analog or digital source.
 
All analog inputs are digitized and handled in the digital domain.  This allows for things like a software-implemented digital RIAA EQ (MUCH more accurate than can be done with analog implementations).  And that can be upgraded, over the network, as it is run off the FPGA, just like the up-sampling and filtering algorithms.
 
Upgrades occur relatively regularly and for the most part deliver noticeable improvements in performance.  There are occasional situations when the community at large doesn’t like a change, and they can revert to earlier code if they want to, but generally things keep moving forward.  This is, as with the PS Audio DACs, a potentially huge benefit.
 
Now, all of that sounds like just the sort of thing a lot of audiophiles would hate.  Everything analog being digitized, processed, and then converted back to analog using the internal DAC and filters before exiting via the analog outputs?!  And, as such, if you feed it an analog source, it’s only going to sound as good as the internal A/D and D/A processing.  Fortunately, that happens to be very good indeed and, in the case of my turntable, it’s a lot better than the discrete phono-stage and EQ I used to have before.
 
But, With ALL input fundamentally being digital before it hits the sound processing and DAC stages, it’s possible for the Linn units to perform room optimization (room EQ) correction.  This is user configurable, simple to set up, yields excellent results already and is getting more and more capable over time.  And Linn already support hundreds of third-party speakers for this model, as the system takes the attributes of a given speaker into account (unsupported speakers are modeled as point sources).
 
That’s a lot of functionality.
 
“Exakt” is the end-game, right now, for Linn and it does some interesting things.  The first is that it keeps the signal purely in the digital domain for as long as possible.  This involves putting the DACs and power-amps as close to the speaker as possible.  In fact, with Linn’s own speaker line, the DAC, “Exakt engine” and power-amps are IN the speaker itself.  You just give them power and a run an Ethernet cable to them and you’re done.  External options exist for some third party speakers, such as the B&W 802 D2.
 
These “Exakt” speakers have been very accurately measured at the factory (every individual drive unit is measured and those numbers are kept).  When you set the system up, you give it the serial numbers for your speakers, it phones home and gets the measurements, and then the Exakt engine on the speaker applies SPEAKER level corrections to correct phase, timing and EQ for that specific speaker.  It also acts as a digital cross-over.  And the drivers are then individually driven by a high-end dedicated amplifier.
 
The combination of “Exakt” and “Space Optimization” allows for incredibly accurate reproduction and relative freedom of placement for your speakers.
 
It’s an interesting approach, and not without its drawbacks.  System lock-in is one.  It works at its best in an all-Linn system, and if you want to use Exakt your options for third-party speakers are very limited.
 
And this is all Linn gear.  For anyone familiar with Linn that’ll telegraph at least one other piece of information:
 
This stuff ain’t cheap!
 
While you can get into an all-Linn setup, if that takes your fancy, for under $5K, the real fun is a bit more expensive.  In fact, if you want to go with an integrated Exakt system (so a DSM Network Music Player and integrated-Exakt speakers, which are the only two components you need) your entry level is … $30,000.
 
Of course, you save on interconnects and speaker cables, since there won’t be any, but that’s not really much comfort in the grand scheme of things!
 
Anyway, now that I’ve babbled on about what the system is, I’ll get back to talking about the actual DSM units, and for these purposes I’m focusing on them as a) DACs, since they can be used that way (wasteful and a bit pointless, but it can be done) and b) as all-in-one streamer w/ DACs.
 
All comments will, herein, be limited to their use driving their analog outputs into a conventional headphone or speaker amplifier.
 
NOTE: This is not really a very realistic comparison.  I would not include the Linn units in this evaluation if I didn’t already own one, and have extensive experience with the others, as they’re not directly comparable functionally.  That skews the price differentials quite a bit, but I thought it’d be an interesting comparison anyway.
 
Anyway, onwards!
 
--
 
Akurate DSM (-)
 
This was, at the time I bought it, several years ago now, the best digital music reproduction I had heard (excepting Linn’s own “Klimax” model).
 
Linn systems tend towards a very musical and detailed presentation albeit tilted towards the analytical and dry side of “musical”.  That’s as best as I can describe the “house sound” anyway.  It’s a product of the technology, rather than a “voicing” thing.
 
You won’t find euphony here.
 
What you will find is oodles of detail, excellent handling of spatial cues and solid imaging, PRaT as good as I’ve ever heard, and a clean, dynamic and fairly pure sound.
 
Used as a DAC, via the direct digital inputs, the Akurate DSM (now superseded by the DSM/1, see below) is good, but it bested pretty much across the board by Yggdrasil.  The Linn remains ahead in terms of PRaT, and is similarly neutral and transparent, but from there the Schiit DAC runs away with the show.
 
Even imaging, a strength of Linn’s sources (though not necessarily their classic speaker lines), and especially their custom FPGA up-sampling and filtering, is notably better on Yggdrasil.
 
Interestingly Yggdrasil driven off the S/PDIF interface of the Linn, and feeding the Linn over Ethernet sounds better than the Yggdrasil driven directly via the same inputs from a non-network source.
 
For our purposes Yggdrasil yields the better sound quality and is much cheaper.  The Linn only makes sense if you want to use it for all or most of its other capabilities, or, especially, in its “Exakt” configuration – which is a speaker-only thing.
 
Akurate DSM/1 (-)(!)
 
Linn upgraded some of the hardware in the Akurate DSM and offered it both directly as a new unit, as well as giving existing owners a simple upgrade path to the latest hardware.  This new unit is called the “Akurate DSM/1” and it is functionally the same as the original DSM.
 
I took advantage of this upgrade option and this is the unit that currently drives my speaker system.
 
The new hardware includes a re-layout of the board, improves the already best-in-class noise and PSU performance (in comparison, the big Classe pre-amp is a noisy bitch).  It also includes a new clocking scheme and more accurate clocks.
 
The result is a pretty significant upgrade in terms of sound quality.
 
Micro-details are now on, or much closer to, the level of Yggdrasil.  Dynamics are also in the same ballpark.  Imaging has improved, but Yggdrasil remains usefully ahead here.  I think the Schiit unit remains more accurate in terms of tone/timbre.
 
Again, Yggdrasil sounds even better when run from the Linn and a network feed than directly from another S/PDIF source.  So it’s quite a nice setup to have one feed the other when you want it.
 
Various software upgrades have pushed the Linn DSM units closer and closer to Yggdrasil, but there are some areas I just don’t think they’re going to match.  The limit, is, I guess ultimately imposed by the Linn’s internal D/S DAC chip … there are some things that R2R just seems to handle innately more proficiently.
 
So for pure musical purposes, the Yggdrasil still wins out … and does so at a quarter the cost of the DSM.  True, it’s JUST a DAC, vs. a highly integrated streamer, DAC, pre-amp, headphone amp, etc.  But it’s DACs we’re evaluating.
 
I will say this, however …
 
Musically, overall, I would take a Linn Exakt system (say the Akurate DSM/1 w/ Exakt Akudorik or Akubarik speakers) over the Yggdrasil and conventional amplification/speakers.  Of course, that’s a very different evaluation and vastly more expensive.  It’s also speaker-centric.
 
But in conventional system, Yggdrasil beats the Akurate DSM/1 to my ears.
 
This is the system I currently run in my speaker rig, incidentally – so even though I’ve already bought and paid for it, I’m not above ranking Yggdrasil where it belongs.  No favoritism or “it costs more so it must sound better” nonsense here.
 
The only thing that has stopped me putting another Yggdrasil into my speaker system is the fact that I just switched it to an integrated Exakt system … so it won’t work and isn’t necessary there.
 
Klimax DSM/1 (-)(!)
 
We’re into the realm of $23K or so here for the Linn piece.
 
As a DAC … Yggdrasil still wins overall.  The margins are a little bit smaller in some areas, but ultimately it just makes Yggdrasil appear to be even better value.
 
The Klimax unit is tempting in the context of a higher end turntable setup, as one of the changes in the Klimax is improved A/D conversion.  In an Exakt configuration, from digital sources, Klimax sounds the same as the Akurate DSM/1 … since all the actual conversion and so on happens in the speaker’s Exakt engine/amps and not in the source!

 

[Torq]

Bryston

BDA-3 (-)

In terms of the usual array of claims made for audiophile DACs, the Bryston BDA-3 is pretty basic.  While Bryston talk up the sound quality, there’s little to call attention to in terms of the technology or engineering behind it.

 
A low noise power supply?  Check.
 
Discrete, class-A, output stages?  Check.
 
User-selectable up-sampling?  Check.
 
Fancy clocks?  Che … wait … what?  No … none of that here, it seems.
 
Other than a wider than typical array of inputs, and the upsampling toggle, this is a pretty simple device, using a pair of AKM 4490s in mono-mode.  This is a chip I generally find quite agreeable sonically, even if I feel it’s a bit out of place in a device at this price level – at least with with no other “special” treatments going on.  After all, this chip now also features in Schiit’s $150 Modi 2 Uber.
 
Okay, there’s only one of them in Modi 2 Uber …
 
Maybe Schiit should offer monobloc DACS … you could buy about 20 of them for the price of the Bryston!  Add a super-low-noise PSU (maybe the iFI 1uV wall-wart) and that would drive up the cost to the point where you could only buy 16 of them …
 
I digress …
 
Now, I’ll be the first to admit that the implementation of a DAC is at least as important as the choice of converter IC, and the results are really what matters regardless of other concerns, so we best get to that.
 
And, in short, I don’t feel this is in the same league as Yggdrasil at all.  Sure it’s competent enough, with good detail, it’s quite dynamic, for the most part it’s transparent – though I did get a sense of a little bloom, or maybe blurring in the lower registers.  At the opposite end of the spectrum there wasn’t a particularly vivid sense of air and brass seemed to lose a bit of its edge.  Tone was generally good otherwise.  PRaT was fine.  But it lacked the ability to convey emotion and draw me into the music. 
 
Presentation was very clean and not really analytical at all, and yet was less dry than would normally be the case for me to make those two statements, but again, it was lacking involvement for me.  There was no sense of excitement, drama, passion, or any emotion at all listening to this thing and, at best, I could describe it as being vanilla.  It’s not that it is bad by any means … it just isn’t that interesting to listen to. 
 
This didn’t change with, or without, up-sampling engaged – though things got a bit smoother with up-sampling enabled.
 
The BDA-3 needs something else to make it interesting for me.  I’m not sure what.  A soul maybe.  Or maybe something more reasonable … perhaps the ability to select from the DAC chip’s built in filter types.  As it is, I don’t recall a filter setting called “forgettable” in the data-sheet.  And I don’t know if that would help anyway.
 
So my impression here is that you have a perfectly competent, but not especially engaging or interesting, DAC, that, compared to the competition, is very hard to justify the $3,495 price tag for.
 
Gungnir would crucify this from a musicality and involvement perspective, and I mean the standard D/S version.  Yggdrasil would make it carry the cross, dig the whole to erect it in, and then hand it the hammer and nails and make it bang them through its PCBs itself.
 
Perhaps this comes alive with DSD … I didn’t test that – I was done with my interest in DSD by that point.  Or maybe it’s ability to take an HDMI feed from an SACD player is its saving grace.  Didn’t try that either (I lack the necessary SACD player or discs).  Otherwise, this just completely misses the mark for me.

 

[TokenGesture]

This thread is shaping up to go into the Headfi Hall of Fame. Kudos.

 

[john777]

Please continue posting your impressions on the various DACs.  Even a one liner would be better than nothing.

In terms of humor, I found the "I could buy all the other DACs on the list for the price of the Nagra and all of them are better" priceless.

+1

 

[grizzlybeast]

@Jason Stoddard must be loving this thread. 
 
I like it too. 

 

[rgs9200m]

It's not surprising that the company that made the legendary CD12 is still breaking new ground and up there with the best. I still vividly remember the NY Stereophile show about 15 years ago with the CD12 and Von Schweikert VR9SE speakers and Dartzeel amps in the demo system.
I always loved the CD12 sound whenever I heard it.

 

[prot]

I realise a lot of development went into to the DAVE, and there is a strong consensus that the sound is excellent......but, even if I could afford one,  I'd still have trouble reconciling the price based on a peak under the hood.

The best part of that Dac and their real differentiator is the software .. and their custom Fpga chips that run it. You wont see much of that in the case or on the BOM .. producing the Fpga-s costs peanuts once you have a final design and installing the software is quite easy too. But developing all that stuff costs serious amounts of money and they gotta recuperate that huge initial investment.
All good in that respect and I think the initial prices are ok if you put it that way. But that also means that the slightly improved v2 should cost half or less and I kinda doubt that. And I also ave a feeling that a large part of Dave's $15k price is also based on the good old pricing-by-sound: my Dac sounds better than the $10k Dac of yesteryear, so it should cost at least 11k. Many hifi designers will serve you such lines and wont care or ever mention that the components are cheaper nowadays, fabrication and distribution are cheaper, etc. And that's an easy, no-limits argument: for almost any new & solid Dac you can easily find an older $10k device that sounds worse and base your price on it.
I find that very customer-unfriendly .. and quite obnoxious too. The digital/tech world doesnt work like that. If Intel used such price 'tactics', the latest Core chips would cost billions each. And your new tablet will be 10x more expensive than your current 2 years old one.
Noone would take that kind of bullsh*t from e.g. Samsung .. but somehow many people are ready to take it from the hifi companies.

/rant

I hope my hifi-prices-venting does not derail the thread .. Torq is doing an excellent job here and fully deserves all the praise he got & more.

 

[pctazhp]

The best part of that Dac and their real differentiator is the software .. and their custom Fpga chips that run it. You wont see much of that in the case or on the BOM .. producing the Fpga-s costs peanuts once you have a final design and installing the software is quite easy too. But developing all that stuff costs serious amounts of money and they gotta recuperate that huge initial investment.
All good in that respect and I think the initial prices are ok if you put it that way. But that also means that the slightly improved v2 should cost half or less and I kinda doubt that. And I also ave a feeling that a large part of Dave's $15k price is also based on the good old pricing-by-sound: my Dac sounds better than the $10k Dac of yesteryear, so it should cost at least 11k. Many hifi designers will serve you such lines and wont care or ever mention that the components are cheaper nowadays, fabrication and distribution are cheaper, etc. And that's an easy, no-limits argument: for almost any new & solid Dac you can easily find an older $10k device that sounds worse and base your price on it.
I find that very customer-unfriendly .. and quite obnoxious too. The digital/tech world doesnt work like that. If Intel used such price 'tactics', the latest Core chips would cost billions each. And your new tablet will be 10x more expensive than your current 2 years old one.
Noone would take that kind of bullsh*t from e.g. Samsung .. but somehow many people are ready to take it from the hifi companies.

/rant

I hope my hifi-prices-venting does not derail the thread .. Torq is doing an excellent job here and fully deserves all the praise he got & more.

I think it is impossible to get inside the head of any manufacturer and analyze what goes into their pricing. Like most of us, whether we are an employee or own our own company, I assume most manufacturers are tying to maximize their profit margin - as they should be. They have a number of considerations to take into account in setting a price, along with some pretty significant gambles. 
 
I can't understand calling the DAVE people "very consumer-unfriendly" for the price they are asking. Any consumer has the option to simply not buy it if they think the price is not justified. The manufacturer has no obligation to reduce its profit margin so that more people can afford to buy it. For me they would probably have to drop it at least 80 to 90%.
 
Edit: Totally agree with you about Torq. He is the reason I follow this thread. He is one of the most skilled and reasonable reviewers, amateur or pro, I have ever read. I am in awe of his communication skills.

 

[Dillan]

It's all marketing. In my opinion the Dave is unimaginably overpriced but it still looks cool and has some neat proprietary chips and software. If you price something a lot more than the average then people will assume (and their bias brains will even imagine) that it's that much better.