Life after Yggdrasil?

[johnjen]

I just found and read this whole thread…
 
My hat is off to you Torq for undertaking this monumental task of evaluating all these dacs, and doing so in public.
And for a list as large as this, the logistics alone are daunting.
 
I too look forward to reading what your determinations will be, although I doubt you'll find any dac that competes on price alone against the Jggy.
But that isn't the point of all this, and so to read what conclusion you come to will be of value regardless…
 
And I'm especially keen on reading your impressions against the very top end dacs.
 
JJ
ps we missed you at the Bottlehead meet…

 

[phase0]

 
At $16,000 the Alpha DAC Reference (or any other DAC at that price level) is going to have to be definitively, consistently, obviously, unambiguously, unequivocally better, across the board, than what I have.  That's a tall order, given how good Yggdrasil is.  More than one, significantly more expensive, unit has already failed to live up to it.

 
Thanks for the thread I'm quite enjoying it and hats off to you for taking on this daunting task. Now that I have a bit of gear I realize I wouldn't have the patience or ambition to do what you're doing here. I just bought a Yggdrasil. This thread partially influenced me. I also read Schiit Happened. Then I searched for whatever I could find on the Yggy. I'm now into week #2 with the Yggy. It's fine if there's something better out there. I'm quite pleased with it as an upgrade. I definitely don't have $8K+ budget for a DAC anyways. I wasn't shopping for a DAC or an Amp but somehow these things just showed up on my doorstep recently. It seems from where I'm at that anything beyond this level is so nit-picky and hairsplitting it's not a place I can go. I'm having a hard time being analytical. I just give up and enjoy the music. I'm glad there's a lot of great choices for folks out there. The world needs to hear it. The world needs better gear.

 

[landroni]

I don't think it's been mentioned before:
VinShineAudio DAC-R2R REF
 
 
Goes for ~2000$ and is based on the Soekris R2R boards. Here's their site:
http://www.vinshineaudio.com/
 
And it's been mentioned in the Soekris thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754547/the-soekris-r-2r-dac-technical-details/150#post_12627696
 

 

[rgs9200m]

This looks interesting:
 http://playbackdesigns.com/#inline_content_MerlotDac
(I used to have the MPS5 CDP and liked it, especially on SACD.)
 
There was this comment on CA too:
The Merlot also provides the ability to add the Playback Designs OpBox interface card that allows you to play CDs, SACDs, DVDs, Blu Ray discs through an Oppo 103 and then record the digital output to DSD or PCMmusic files. Clever. 

 

[Torq]

  I just found and read this whole thread…
 
My hat is off to you Torq for undertaking this monumental task of evaluating all these dacs, and doing so in public.
And for a list as large as this, the logistics alone are daunting.
 
I too look forward to reading what your determinations will be, although I doubt you'll find any dac that competes on price alone against the Jggy.
But that isn't the point of all this, and so to read what conclusion you come to will be of value regardless…
 
And I'm especially keen on reading your impressions against the very top end dacs.
 
JJ
ps we missed you at the Bottlehead meet…

It's definitely proving to be a challenge!
 
I'm already prepared for the apparent inevitably that I'm not going to find a better DAC at Yggdrasil's price point.  That's an interesting data point in its own right.  I came into this expecting to pay 2-3x more since Schiit don't have to deal with distributor and dealer overheads.  And that's about where things are starting to line up for me (though there are definitely units above that level that still don't, to me, sound as good as Yggdrasil).
 
When I get down to a final set of DACs to choose from (my top 5 probably), or if I happen to have several on-hand for long enough in the interim, we'll have to try and get a group together so other's can hear them.  Especially where getting auditions for some of this stuff is just fiddly or requires patience (some units are "easy" to get an audition for, in that the manufacturer will send a demo unit out ... but they only have so many of those so there's often a wait involved).
 
...
 
I am really a bit bummed at not making to the Bottlehead meet as well!  I was really looking forward to that one!  That's one of the challenges with having a girlfriend with elderly parents that are, shall we say, not in the best of health ...

 

[Torq]

  I don't think it's been mentioned before:
VinShineAudio DAC-R2R REF
 
 
Goes for ~2000$ and is based on the Soekris R2R boards. Here's their site:
http://www.vinshineaudio.com/
 
And it's been mentioned in the Soekris thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754547/the-soekris-r-2r-dac-technical-details/150#post_12627696
 

Interesting ...
 
Though if I go with something more elaborate than the actual Soekris DAC itself, I'll likely just buy the necessary converter boards from Soekris and build the rest myself.  Have to do something to keep myself off the streets ...

 

[Torq]

  This looks interesting:
 http://playbackdesigns.com/#inline_content_MerlotDac
(I used to have the MPS5 CDP and liked it, especially on SACD.)
 
There was this comment on CA too:
The Merlot also provides the ability to add the Playback Designs OpBox interface card that allows you to play CDs, SACDs, DVDs, Blu Ray discs through an Oppo 103 and then record the digital output to DSD or PCMmusic files. Clever. 

That is an interesting little line-up.
 
I wouldn't have use for anything other than the DAC, but I'll see what it takes to get to hear that.
 
My use for physical media these days is either because it's the cheapest way to get a 16/44.1 source to rip (since Amazon's prices on CDs are, for the most part, cheaper than the equivalent Red Book download from anywhere else).  Otherwise it's a few LPs here and there and everything else is a file download.  Neat option for those that still prefer discs though.

 

[johnjen]

 
It's definitely proving to be a challenge!
 
I'm already prepared for the apparent inevitably that I'm not going to find a better DAC at Yggdrasil's price point.  That's an interesting data point in its own right.  I came into this expecting to pay 2-3x more since Schiit don't have to deal with distributor and dealer overheads.  And that's about where things are starting to line up for me (though there are definitely units above that level that still don't, to me, sound as good as Yggdrasil).
 
When I get down to a final set of DACs to choose from (my top 5 probably), or if I happen to have several on-hand for long enough in the interim, we'll have to try and get a group together so other's can hear them.  Especially where getting auditions for some of this stuff is just fiddly or requires patience (some units are "easy" to get an audition for, in that the manufacturer will send a demo unit out ... but they only have so many of those so there's often a wait involved).
 
...
 
I am really a bit bummed at not making to the Bottlehead meet as well!  I was really looking forward to that one!  That's one of the challenges with having a girlfriend with elderly parents that are, shall we say, not in the best of health ...

Yeah with Schiits pricing and sales model it will be VERY difficult to compete on price alone, and with their design and orientation towards pushing the envelope they tend to provide a 'stark' contrast to the usual $/performance ratio.
 
That being said the audio jewelry factor, while enticing for some is or can be rather expensive.
But when the music is playing and demands my attention, my eyes are usually shut as I get swept up and carried along.
 
I liken this aspect of the decision to decide to purchase (or not) one device over another, to the pride of ownership/show off (see what I got?) that Mike Moffet described a ways back.
 
As for the logistics of actually being able to audition this top end gear, well, I figure there are a lot of tire kickers and those with aspirations to these rarefied levels of $$$$$$$$.
Probably WAY more so than those who actually are able to enjoy all of what these units can actually deliver.
Still, having choices is a wonderful position to be in, even though it can tend to make everything much more 'complicated'.
 
And a thought which was prompted by a post Barra made…
Perhaps we could all nominate a song, or 2 max, and all of us become familiar with them to use as our pool of music to use for evaluation.
This way we can become familiar enough and make the evaluation a bit more 'rigorous'.
I figure all we'd need is 6 tracks ±, that demonstrate various aspects of sonic attributes we value.
Anyway it's an idea to throw out there…
 
------------
I figured something like that happened (family obligations et. al.) which is not something that can be 'ignored'.
There will be other meets, in fact I hear another is in the works…
 
JJ

 

[Torq]

  Yeah with Schiits pricing and sales model it will be VERY difficult to compete on price alone, and with their design and orientation towards pushing the envelope they tend to provide a 'stark' contrast to the usual $/performance ratio.
 
That being said the audio jewelry factor, while enticing for some is or can be rather expensive.
But when the music is playing and demands my attention, my eyes are usually shut as I get swept up and carried along.
 
I liken this aspect of the decision to decide to purchase (or not) one device over another, to the pride of ownership/show off (see what I got?) that Mike Moffet described a ways back.
 
As for the logistics of actually being able to audition this top end gear, well, I figure there are a lot of tire kickers and those with aspirations to these rarefied levels of $$$$$$$$.
Probably WAY more so than those who actually are able to enjoy all of what these units can actually deliver.
Still, having choices is a wonderful position to be in, even though it can tend to make everything much more 'complicated'.
 
And a thought which was prompted by a post Barra made…
Perhaps we could all nominate a song, or 2 max, and all of us become familiar with them to use as our pool of music to use for evaluation.
This way we can become familiar enough and make the evaluation a bit more 'rigorous'.
I figure all we'd need is 6 tracks ±, that demonstrate various aspects of sonic attributes we value.
Anyway it's an idea to throw out there…
 
------------
I figured something like that happened (family obligations et. al.) which is not something that can be 'ignored'.
There will be other meets, in fact I hear another is in the works…
 
JJ

I'm definitely on board with the idea of our local group coming up with a common playlist for evaluation.  As you say, and I agree, it probably doesn't need to be a massive playlist.
 
I've been guilty of the "audio jewelry" thing in the past.  It was a sonic disaster unfortunately.  And a very expensive lesson to learn.  So now I temper my less-listening-driven desires quite heavily.  I'd still have a LOT of trouble buying an ugly component unless it was night-and-day better than something else more attractive, since this stuff does live where people can see it, but I'm much less inspired by fancy casework and displays than I was twenty years ago!
 
To make future comparisons easier (for me), I'm in the process of putting together a little box that'll allow properly-random A/B/X testing for those that are interested in such things.  I can knock out a few of them for the local group as needed, once I have it finished.  If there's broader interest I might throw it up on Kickstarter (etc.) and see about a small production run.  Most likely I'll do this one as a open-source-hardware/software project though, as I don't see it being a major seller!
 
I'm hoping the next meet is when I'm around!  We have too good a local group for me to want to miss out on more (I'm still really bummed about the Bottlehead meet).

 

[Torq]

I'm probably going to be very sparse in this thread for the next three weeks.
 
I'll be traveling and engrossed enough that I probably won't be paying much attention here.
 
I'm also pretty sure that the Orient Express doesn't have reliable cellular data much less WiFi!
 
That said, part of my travels will take me to the homes of some of the higher-end DACs on my audition list and I should come back armed with the knowledge of where those units fit into the grand scheme of things.  Sadly my darling girlfriend veto'd the idea of me bringing Yggdrasil along ...
 
And, I expect, once I return, I shall post my thoughts/impressions on the DACs I have heard and eliminated so far.  Though for those that remain in the running I shall probably say very little until later in the process!

 

[phase0]

  Sadly my darling girlfriend veto'd the idea of me bringing Yggdrasil along ...

 
It's just as well, think of all the batteries you would need haul along with it to keep it powered 24x7 while on the road. LOL.

 

[Tertera]

This thread sounds like hype train hahaha ...

 

[landroni]

This thread sounds like hype train hahaha ...

Your comment sounds like "objectivist" trolling...

 

[manpowre]

With Schiit's introduction of the Yggdrasil, the DAC vendors are most probably gearing up for their new killer for a price that matches Yggdrasil. Remember Yggdrasil runs up against dacs 2-3x pricelevels. Yggy still have improvements to be done, like better USB signal path (galvanized isolator) and a better analogue signal path, but all at a cost. For the other vendors to survive they need to come up with something that is musical, high-res and has all the new gadgets like re-clocker, galvanization, noise cancelling etc built in! 
 
I did review HD30 and Yggdrasil is just way more musical. HD30 is more high res yes, but wasnt musical, so Yggi it is for me. CES 2017 will be interesting for sure on the DAC side.

 

[astrostar59]

  For the other vendors to survive they need to come up with something that is musical, high-res and has all the new gadgets like re-clocker, galvanization, noise cancelling etc built in! 

I think the DAC sector is chock a block with offerings and the Yggy is part of the big picture. It is a complex area with streamers, streamers + DAC + Pre-amp all in one combos, tube DACs, R-2R tube DACs. Then discrete digital boards (TotalDAC) or single / multi chip, PCM or DSD, up sampling or no up sampling. USB or Ethernet or SPDIF or i2S.
 
All confusing? This sector is moving fast which maybe be good for consumers or not? Buy now or wait? I certainly think if anyone is going to buy in the 10K and up section they must look at slot in board capability or that product could be obsolete / miss out on future advancements.