Lets Talk Metal
Jul 17, 2014 at 9:02 AM Post #15,241 of 29,663
I think the problem lies in the fact that Fallujah's brand of death metal is pretty nuanced; the music itself is very dynamic with atmospheric swells, mood changes, and progression. These sorts of things, one would imagine, would be brought to the umpteenth degree with a dynamic mix, unlike, say, Anaal Nathrakh (perhaps... a big perhaps, even).

I also think the fact that Colin Marston, Dan Swano et al can do it shows that it actually ISN'T a compromise that has to be made. I think the argument is that even if no one is Colin Marston, we shouldn't be complacent in letting these DR ratings go because it can be done.

Also... hehe... I don't want to be 'that' guy, but do you know of any albums good dynamic range that is "completely incoherent" and "lacks brutality"? I'd be very intrigued towards the opposite case of what is being argued.

All IMHO of course.


That's what has me so CONFUSED. This record is brimming with sections that could use a healthy dose of dynamics and its completely lost in a sea of red. The fact that Kronos (the reviewer) noticed it is a shining testament to that fact.
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 10:30 AM Post #15,242 of 29,663
  I think the problem lies in the fact that Fallujah's brand of death metal is pretty nuanced; the music itself is very dynamic with atmospheric swells, mood changes, and progression. These sorts of things, one would imagine, would be brought to the umpteenth degree with a dynamic mix, unlike, say, Anaal Nathrakh (perhaps... a big perhaps, even).
 
I also think the fact that Colin Marston, Dan Swano et al can do it shows that it actually ISN'T a compromise that has to be made. I think the argument is that even if no one is Colin Marston, we shouldn't be complacent in letting these DR ratings go because it can be done.
 
Also... hehe... I don't want to be 'that' guy, but do you know of any albums good dynamic range that is "completely incoherent" and "lacks brutality"? I'd be very intrigued towards the opposite case of what is being argued.
 
All IMHO of course.

 
Fallujah is a very technically proficient band, like Zack Ohren said, and they wanted the sound to be "huge" not necessarily extremely dynamic. I agree that dynamics would help accentuate the things you mentioned, but I don't think they're going for that.
 
When I said that everyone isn't Colin Marston, I meant that not everyone wants to make the albums he makes or can. Most metal heads don't care about dynamics or well thought out mixing. They just want to lay some crushing riffs down and listen to it on their crappy stereo. I've known many small metal bands and the last thing on their to-do list is making an epic and dynamic album. They mostly just want to destroy things. I'm not saying we should be complacent with bad production, I'm saying that most people don't have the same goals for their music that you do.
 
Mostly old death metal lacks coherence and brutality. The mixes were very polite to me. They're dynamic, but not very brutal. Human Waste, Scream Bloody Gore, stuff like that. In more modern music, there's a lot of shoegaze and blackened metal that people are trying to make very dynamic, but ends up just sounding like ****. Another example is Opeth, who I really love. I tend to like their less dynamic albums a lot more than the more dynamic ones. I'll take Blackwater Park over Morningrise any day.
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 11:41 AM Post #15,243 of 29,663
   
Fallujah is a very technically proficient band, like Zack Ohren said, and they wanted the sound to be "huge" not necessarily extremely dynamic. I agree that dynamics would help accentuate the things you mentioned, but I don't think they're going for that.
 
When I said that everyone isn't Colin Marston, I meant that not everyone wants to make the albums he makes or can. Most metal heads don't care about dynamics or well thought out mixing. They just want to lay some crushing riffs down and listen to it on their crappy stereo. I've known many small metal bands and the last thing on their to-do list is making an epic and dynamic album. They mostly just want to destroy things. I'm not saying we should be complacent with bad production, I'm saying that most people don't have the same goals for their music that you do.
 
Mostly old death metal lacks coherence and brutality. The mixes were very polite to me. They're dynamic, but not very brutal. Human Waste, Scream Bloody Gore, stuff like that. In more modern music, there's a lot of shoegaze and blackened metal that people are trying to make very dynamic, but ends up just sounding like ****. Another example is Opeth, who I really love. I tend to like their less dynamic albums a lot more than the more dynamic ones. I'll take Blackwater Park over Morningrise any day.

 
The irony is that by making the record soo loud they force the listener to back off on the volume because of the pain, thus making the sound not only low but flat as well
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM Post #15,244 of 29,663
 
The irony is that by making the record soo loud they force the listener to back off on the volume because of the pain, thus making the sound not only low but flat as well

This has not been an issue for me, and even on the promo stuff for Fallujah it isn't a problem.
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM Post #15,245 of 29,663
   
The irony is that by making the record soo loud they force the listener to back off on the volume because of the pain, thus making the sound not only low but flat as well

This is the main problem for me across all loud releases. One notch up and it's blowing my ears off, one notch down and it's all muffled sounding and quiet. 
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 12:35 PM Post #15,247 of 29,663
Fallujah is a very technically proficient band, like Zack Ohren said, and they wanted the sound to be "huge" not necessarily extremely dynamic. I agree that dynamics would help accentuate the things you mentioned, but I don't think they're going for that.

When I said that everyone isn't Colin Marston, I meant that not everyone wants to make the albums he makes or can. Most metal heads don't care about dynamics or well thought out mixing. They just want to lay some crushing riffs down and listen to it on their crappy stereo. I've known many small metal bands and the last thing on their to-do list is making an epic and dynamic album. They mostly just want to destroy things. I'm not saying we should be complacent with bad production, I'm saying that most people don't have the same goals for their music that you do.

Mostly old death metal lacks coherence and brutality. The mixes were very polite to me. They're dynamic, but not very brutal. Human Waste, Scream Bloody Gore, stuff like that. In more modern music, there's a lot of shoegaze and blackened metal that people are trying to make very dynamic, but ends up just sounding like ****. Another example is Opeth, who I really love. I tend to like their less dynamic albums a lot more than the more dynamic ones. I'll take Blackwater Park over Morningrise any day.


Are you level matching the old records with their newer/more compressed counterparts? I honestly feel sludgeogre that you are being fooled by the Equal Loudness Contours.

Check this out as a counterpoint.

Do me ONE favor: Download both the Torture Division EP high dynamic version and the not-so dynamic version. Import them into iTunes and hit the Soundcheck button.

Compare and constrast and tell us what you think!
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM Post #15,248 of 29,663
Are you level matching the old records with their newer/more compressed counterparts? I honestly feel sludgeogre that you are being fooled by the Equal Loudness Contours.

Check this out as a counterpoint.

Do me ONE favor: Download both the Torture Division EP high dynamic version and the not-so dynamic version. Import them into iTunes and hit the Soundcheck button.

Compare and constrast and tell us what you think!

I'm not listening to different versions. I'm basing this knowledge on my listening habits over the last decade. I haven't been level matching anything until recently. 
 
I understand the point being made in the video that was linked, but I don't think the differences that we're talking about are that egregious. Obviously the more dynamic version there is much better. 
 
I'll download the Torture Division stuff when I have a chance, might not be until the weekend, but I will and I will let you know what I think. I'm pretty sure I'm going to like the more dynamic release there as well, because that is what Dan Swano wanted. In Fallujah's case, it's different, because they wanted the compression. Again, different goals in production.
 
Sorry, I know you guys hate me for it, but I still prefer the newer masters of Death. I pretty much just listen to Live in LA with them, though.
 
Another great example of where lower DR didn't hurt the sound is SubRosa. Their new album, More Constant Than The Gods, comes in at DR4 or 5 on every track. The album was mastered by Marduk's bassist Devo Andersson. They hit a wall at one point where they couldn't get the guitars sound right, so they ran it through a vintange 70's compressor and it all came together. The higher dynamic range masters were actually rejected both by the band and Profound Lore. I think it is an incredibly beautiful album and was certainly my favorite of last year. It topped quite a few top 10 lists last year.
 
Again, different artists are going to have different goals for their music. Dynamics is almost never the number one goal. Is any of this making any sense?
WhMarduk bass player Devo AnderssonMarduk bass player Devo AnderssonMarduk bass player Devo Andersson
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 3:25 PM Post #15,249 of 29,663
I'm not listening to different versions. I'm basing this knowledge on my listening habits over the last decade. I haven't been level matching anything until recently. 


Well that is great news that you are at least level matching some of the times!

I understand the point being made in the video that was linked, but I don't think the differences that we're talking about are that egregious. Obviously the more dynamic version there is much better. 


I think DR3 is fairly egregious.

I'll download the Torture Division stuff when I have a chance, might not be until the weekend, but I will and I will let you know what I think. I'm pretty sure I'm going to like the more dynamic release there as well, because that is what Dan Swano wanted. In Fallujah's case, it's different, because they wanted the compression. Again, different goals in production.


No, the band wanted DR4/5 and that's what Dan delivered. The band then gave Dan permission to do it his way and make a high dynamic master instead.

The question for you is that did Fallujah fully understand the compromises that would be made at DR3? There is no loud at DR3 since everything is, i.e. after the first few seconds the shock & awe wears off really fast.

Sorry, I know you guys hate me for it, but I still prefer the newer masters of Death. I pretty much just listen to Live in LA with them, though.


No problem whatsoever.

Another great example of where lower DR didn't hurt the sound is SubRosa. Their new album, More Constant Than The Gods, comes in at DR4 or 5 on every track. The album was mastered by Marduk's bassist Devo Andersson. They hit a wall at one point where they couldn't get the guitars sound right, so they ran it through a vintange 70's compressor and it all came together. The higher dynamic range masters were actually rejected both by the band and Profound Lore. I think it is an incredibly beautiful album and was certainly my favorite of last year. It topped quite a few top 10 lists last year.

Again, different artists are going to have different goals for their music. Dynamics is almost never the number one goal. Is any of this making any sense?


Dynamics should never be the number one goal, but it should play a factor. At DR4 and lower, it simply doesn't (or its very very hard to hear it). That's my point.

It beats the heck out of me why SubRosa couldn't make a dynamic record that sounds good? I mean dude....holy cow..that whole album has massive quiet and loud parts to it. Are you saying SubRosa needs to have balls to the wall volume levels on every single note? Really?

What's funny is I know at least one person who hates that record because of the crazy compression throughout. He says it's very fatiguing and distracts from the music. Go figure?
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 3:40 PM Post #15,250 of 29,663
I think DR3 is fairly egregious.

It's getting pretty low, but if the song still sounds good, I'm not complaining, and I think Fallujah still sounds great.
 
No, the band wanted DR4/5 and that's what Dan delivered. The band then gave Dan permission to do it his way and make a high dynamic master instead.

The question for you is that did Fallujah fully understand the compromises that would be made at DR3? There is no loud at DR3 since everything is, i.e. after the first few seconds the shock & awe wears off really fast.
 
I know, that's why I said that's what Dan wanted, and I'm probably going to side with him as well. I mean, he's Dan Swano.
I don't KNOW that Fallujah fully understood it, but I've been lead to believe that they are pretty smart dudes. They listened to both versions and picked the one they liked the best. I also don't see why "shock and awe" matters anyway. I'd rather have the levels be at similar volumes (without clipping, of course). I think that provides a more consistently brutal track. I don't see the point in having guitar levels all over the place. It just bugs me after a while. It's tech death. I want to hear that technicality without it sounding like a bunch of masturbatory noodling, which is where technical guitar tracks end up all too often.
 
Quote:
Dynamics should never be the number one goal, but it should play a factor. At DR4 and lower, it simply doesn't (or its very very hard to hear it). That's my point.

It beats the heck out of me why SubRosa couldn't make a dynamic record that sounds good? I mean dude....holy cow..that whole album has massive quiet and loud parts to it. Are you saying SubRosa needs to have balls to the wall volume levels on every single note? Really?

What's funny is I know at least one person who hates that record because of the crazy compression throughout. He says it's very fatiguing and distracts from the music. Go figure?



I agree that it should play a factor, but I disagree that DR4 and lower it doesn't, as I like a lot of songs that are that low.
 
I'm not saying they need to be loud. Like you said, it has quiet and loud parts. I think they just preferred the sound of a more evenly leveled album, and I would agree with them. Otherwise things could get incoherent pretty quick with squealing, piercing violins, making it easy to lose track of a lot of the gorgeous stuff going on. I don't find it fatiguing at all. I can listen to this album over and over again. It's perfect sludge to me.

 
Jul 17, 2014 at 4:56 PM Post #15,251 of 29,663
It's getting pretty low, but if the song still sounds good, I'm not complaining, and I think Fallujah still sounds great.


THAT is in a nutshell your argument: If it makes your head move and doesn't clip in the process, mission accomplished from a production standpoint. So be it. I'm not going to argue with that.

My position: I truly believe that over time if more metal heads listen to higher dynamic material (like Origin, like Gorguts, like Panopticon, like Swano), they will feel a lot differently about smashed records like the Fallujah one, and recognize all that they are missing. I also believe that if that Fallujah record was also mastered in such a way that not only would it have that wall of sound presence, but it would actually feel viscerally impactful due the natural dynamics that is contained in all music, my fellow Fallujah fan would pick the higher dynamic version every single time, i.e. If everything is LOUD nothing IS. :D
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 5:01 PM Post #15,252 of 29,663
My position: I truly believe that over time if more metal heads listen to higher dynamic material (like Origin, like Gorguts, like Panopticon, like Swano), they will feel a lot differently about smashed records like the Fallujah one, and recognize all that they are missing. I also believe that if that Fallujah record was also mastered in such a way that not only would it have that wall of sound presence, but it would actually feel viscerally impactful due the natural dynamics that is contained in all music, my fellow Fallujah fan would pick the higher dynamic version every single time, i.e. If everything is LOUD nothing IS.
biggrin.gif

Amen.
 
Jul 17, 2014 at 5:32 PM Post #15,253 of 29,663
  foobar2000 1.2.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-07-17 23:29:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Opeth / Pale Communion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11       0.00 dB   -13.51 dB      6:44 01-Eternal Rains Will Come
DR9        0.00 dB   -10.73 dB      5:35 02-Cusp Of Eternity
DR10       0.00 dB   -13.50 dB     10:53 03-Moon Above, Sun Below
DR14       0.00 dB   -17.83 dB      4:48 04-Elysian Woes
DR11       0.00 dB   -12.97 dB      4:33 05-Goblin
DR11       0.00 dB   -13.50 dB      7:31 06-River
DR10       0.00 dB   -13.20 dB      8:01 07-Voice Of Treason
DR11       0.00 dB   -15.73 dB      7:40 08-Faith In Others
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks:  8
Official DR value: DR11
Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bitrate:           256 kbps
Codec:             MP3
================================================================================
 


Mister Wilson nailed it again
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