[upstateguy]

Let's prove the Null Hypothesis: I'm searching for:

1- A body of evidence to support the proposition that cables sound differently from each other.

2- A body of evidence to support the proposition that exotic power cords, make a difference.

3- A body of evidence to support the proposition that all Amps do not sound the same.

Of course, manufacturer's data must be excluded for obvious reasons.

I'm looking for any evidence, collected by any methodology.

What I'm not looking for is an "I hear a difference" show of hands.

Let's find the body of evidence!

USG

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's prove the Null Hypothesis: ...

umm, the null hypothesis is assumed to be true

It's like in court where the defendant is assumed innocent. That's the null hypothesis. You don't prove them innocent.

Anyways carry on and have fun. I certainly won't go near this topic.

 

[myinitialsaredac]

Aye, but anyways, heres a little test I put together that showed electrical differences in cabling-
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/i...esults-368745/

That might help you out a bit. So far as I know there is no quantitative data showing cables sound different. However, there is also no quantitative data that cables sound the same.

Search around about harmonics to see the difference in even order and odd order harmonics (tube and solid state essentially). That is a simple way to substantiate #3.

I'm not even going near #2.

Dave

 

[Nightmare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm looking for any evidence, collected by any methodology.

"Any methodology" can produce results (not evidence) to advance anything a person is trying to prove. What you should be looking for are results gathered by scientifically valid methodology. Only then can it be called evidence.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif umm, the null hypothesis is assumed to be true It's like in court where the defendant is assumed innocent. That's the null hypothesis. You don't prove them innocent. Anyways carry on and have fun. I certainly won't go near this topic.

Hi rds

Your absolutely right.

All 3 propositions are generally assumed to be true.

I'm looking for evidence to support that belief system.

USG

 

[Publius]

You're looking for a noninferiority test.

noninferiority test - Google Search

I believe the common wisdom is that they're possible, but they require insane amounts of testing to achieve any degree of confidence. I believe the number I heard bandied about was thousands of trials.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by myinitialsaredac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aye, but anyways, heres a little test I put together that showed electrical differences in cabling- http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/i...esults-368745/ That might help you out a bit. So far as I know there is no quantitative data showing cables sound different. However, there is also no quantitative data that cables sound the same. Search around about harmonics to see the difference in even order and odd order harmonics (tube and solid state essentially). That is a simple way to substantiate #3. I'm not even going near #2. Dave

Hi Dave

I've followed your tests. Good stuff that paperclip interconnect. But if there is no data that you know of, why the prevalent belief system?

RE: #3

What sticks in my mind is the original amp test where the 25 golden ears were able to discern differences and write notes about those differences while they could see the amp they were listening to, but when the amp was concealed from them they weren't able to tell the difference between the Pioneer and the Futterman monoblocks.

RE: #2

You mean you don't want to touch the last 2 feet?

One would think that for the amount of money some of those last 2 feet cost, someone would have done some research along the way.... maybe not.

USG

 

[jonathanjong]

Erm, the null hypothesis should be a lack of an effect...

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightmare /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Any methodology" can produce results (not evidence) to advance anything a person is trying to prove. What you should be looking for are results gathered by scientifically valid methodology. Only then can it be called evidence.

Hey Nighmare

Of course you're right, but I would be willing to look at any compiled results at this point, never mind hard cold evidence.

I have decided that I'm going to be an agnostic in this religious war. I would like to look at all the evidence and then come to a conclusion. The only problem is that that I don't see any support for those propositions....

USG

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Erm, the null hypothesis should be a lack of an effect...

I know Jonathan, sending PM. Stand by.

 

[PhilS]

A person's observations, i.e., what they saw or heard, is "evidence" within the generally accepted meaning of the word -- including in a court of law. It may not be conclusive, and it may be refuted by other evidence, but it is still "evidence." To put it another way, it is probative of the existence or non-existence of a fact.

Although I am not a scientist, it's my understanding that scientists also rely in part on observations. Again, they may not be conclusive, or they may be refuted by other evidence, but I think they are still considered.

Of course, one can always stack the deck by saying: "I will only consider certain types of evidence to be valid in my search for truth," but that does not seem to be a reasonable way to reach a conclusion about the existence of non-existence of a fact. Indeed, it seems sort of comical, or at least ironic.

EDIT: And was suggested in the same thread in the Amps forum by someone else, nobody (not even the most diehard DBT types) really contend that all amps sound the same. The contention is that certain amps (i.e., SS amps, or amps that measure the same) sound the same. In fact, there is an older thread somewhere on this forum which includes a lengthy quote from one of the very knowledgeable and well-known proponents of DBT's and the proposition that SS amps of certain type sound the same to the effect that tube amps (and perhaps some other amps also) used with headphones do not sound the same due in part to impedance issues (as I recall).

 

[LostOne.TR]

huhz..... I thought it only gives you reason to reject / fail to reject the null. But not actually "prove."

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif A person's observations, i.e., what they saw or heard, is "evidence" within the generally accepted meaning of the word -- including in a court of law. It may not be conclusive, and it may be refuted by other evidence, but it is still "evidence." To put it another way, it is probative of the existence or non-existence of a fact. Although I am not a scientist, it's my understanding that scientists also rely in part on observations. Again, they may not be conclusive, or they may be refuted by other evidence, but I think they are still considered. Of course, one can always stack the deck by saying: "I will only consider certain types of evidence to be valid in my search for truth," but that does not seem to be a reasonable way to reach a conclusion about the existence of non-existence of a fact. Indeed, it seems sort of comical, or at least ironic. EDIT: And as pointed out on the same thread in the Amps forum, nobody really contends that all amps sound the same. The contention is that certain amps (i.e., SS amps, or amps that measure the same) sound the same.

Hi Phil

When you're right you're right.

Bring on the data.

We're not being very selective and the methodology doesn't have to be perfect, as long as it's some kind of compiled data that we can draw conclusions from.

Come on, let's look at the data and see what we have.

USG

 

[Uncle Erik]

#3: go back through the Stereophile archives. You will find about 30 years of objective amplifier testing that wasn't done by the manufacturers. They've been independently testing reviewed amps for many years. You might want to contact their staff for more information.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif EDIT: And was suggested in the same thread in the Amps forum by someone else, nobody (not even the most diehard DBT types) really contend that all amps sound the same. The contention is that certain amps (i.e., SS amps, or amps that measure the same) sound the same. In fact, there is an older thread somewhere on this forum which includes a lengthy quote from one of the very knowledgeable and well-known proponents of DBT's and the proposition that SS amps of certain type sound the same to the effect that tube amps (and perhaps some other amps also) used with headphones do not sound the same due in part to impedance issues (as I recall).

Oops, I didn't see the edit....

The amp tests again.....

I think you are mistaken. The amps from the test were extremely different and were not headphone amps. The only thing that was the same was how they sounded once the golden ears couldn't see which amp they were listening to.

This $200 Pioneer is a solid state

and these $12,000 Futterman monoblocks are tube amps

USG