[Nightfall]

Greetings fellow members of the Head-Fi Brotherhood,

I have an automobile question that I've been pondering for some time, and knowing there is some significant car expertise amongst your masses, I thought I would solicit some of your thoughts and throw the topic out there.
As a number of you know, I've been driving Audi TT's for some time now (six years next August), and have enjoyed the experience. They are also superb for winter driving, when used with good, high performance snow tires. German build quality, design and execution is an easy thing to become accustomed to. Not to mention Audi service, and zero cost repairs and maintenance. They provide completely free warranty service, even including oil changes, and even windshield wiper replacement. Everything, bumber to bumper is covered for 4 years/50k miles. I've been dealing with Audi for almost ten years now, and they have done very well for me in virtually every area. I simply cant lease a third consecutive TT, its gets boring.
As noted, my lease will expire in ten months, and I know its a bit early on, but I virtually ALWAYS know, at this point, what I will be getting. This time around, I no longer have a clear choice, and so, I'm trying to sort out the options I'll have.
I live in an area of Michigan, north of Detroit, at the very end of a snowbelt, that sees significant snow and wintry conditions in the winter. In addition, I have to negotiate a number of medium grade hills, and one lengthy, and very steep hill (that I live on), and then an equally steep, angled driveway, to get to and from my home. This rules out any car that dosent have all wheel drive (trust me on this). I need a vehicle with solid performance, excellent handling, and a certain degree of comfort/luxury. It needs to be priced at or under $40k and I intend to lease the car.
I had planned, all along, on going with an Audi S4, but, sadly, the pricing on the new model has moved into a range thats beyond what I can manage. A lease on a $50k car isnt pretty.
Since no 2006's models would be expected to be available to me next August, as far as I know, my only options would be whats currently available, with one possible exception. I'm very well versed on automobiles in general, have read every major automotive magazine for the past 30 years, and have driven many, many vehicles, but could use your thoughts, recommendations and advice regarding my best options in this case as every available vehicle is problematic in some regard.
As I saw it, my only known options were as follows:

Subaru WRX STi

Infiniti G35 sedan with AWD option

Mitsubish Evo MR

Volvo S60 R


Here are the issues. Based upon recent dealer visits for research. First, the G35 has to be crossed off the list. The AWD option is not available with the "sport" package, and thus does not have the sport suspension, and also includes only smaller tires and wheels. This removes it from consideration.
My primary choice was expected to be the WRX STi, which is logically a workable option, however, there are financing issues with Subaru leasing. The montly lease charges are as high as cars that sell for $10k more. When I asked the two dealerships I talked to about it, they openly admitted they were extremely high lease rates, but Subaru dosent make a large number of these, and expects people to buy, not lease, thus leasing is of virtually zero concern to them.
Next comes the Mitsubishi which is problematic in a number of ways. First, the corporation is in SERIOUS financial trouble, and a number of sources within auto industry management have told me that they might not even be in business 12-24 months from now. I also have issues with trusting Mitsubishi build quality, and especially reliablilty based on more than a few instances involving myself and family or friends. Additionally, there is no dealership within 25 miles of me. You add all that up, for a corporation struggling to even survive, well......this makes this option virtually nil.
I also have "some" concerns about using the WRX-STi or the EVO as a daily vehicle. Their ride is more than a wee bit harsh, and for those of you who dont know personally, Michigan roads include regular gauntlets of serious potholes, bumps, etc. etc. etc. Now understand, I've always driven performance oriented vehicles, and the TT doesent ride like its on cushions either, but I know people with Corvettes who also have STi's, and EVO's in their family stable, or have driven them extensively, and they complain about the ride of those vehicles.

Lastly, we come to the Volvo S60 R

Reviews have been pretty good, but no raves, and its a VOLVO, after all, but might work out okay. Volvo also offers some nice leasing plans, however, apparently Volvo dosent subsidize leases for THIS model at ALL! They are talking about $750.00 a month for a 0 down, 3 year lease on one of these, which is insane. Thats $200-250.00 a month more than a comparable lease on a typical car in its price range!

Lastly, there has been word of a news of an upcoming MazdaSpeed6 that might also be workable, and its expected to be available by next July. No way to tell exactly how well this will perform yet, and I suspect it may be a little short of comfort/luxury, in the projected price range. Its going to have 270hp, and is supposedly targeting the WRX/EVO class. Worth watching at least.

And so, in the end, there arent really ANY clear option that I am aware of. I'm not going to pay a ridiculous amount of money for the STi lease. The G35 no longer qualifies as an option, and buying a car from Mitsubishi is a disaster waiting to happen. If only Mazda would bring out a performance based RX8 with awd, or Infiniti make the G35 coupe availabile with AWD and keep the performance as it is.

I would appreciate any thoughts, recommendations, or advice regarding this dilemma. Thanks.


JC

 

[Jasper994]

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/330xiSedan

might add this to your list of vehicles to check out.

 

[mjg]

i hate the evo,

get the STI, or if u want more of a sedan less kid-type car.
The new legacy turbo is out real soon. It's not as powerful as the STI, but it's about 250hp, and sedan refinements, looks alot classier.
The sti has the bigger engine of course, and will really take to modding.

The STI version of the legazy is probablly due out in a bout a year i guess.

Other cars to look at are the 330XI (awd 3 series)
The new turbo forrester is actually a very quick car, its an SUV but it will run a low 14 iread somewhere.

The STI isn't a refined car, keep that in mine. It's AWD, quick as hell, and has serious mod potential, but it's not luxury, not even a sedan. The interior is cheesy, and definatly a ricey type of car, which might not be what you want.
The car will get you noticed all the time, and antognized to race, if u can deal with driving a hot car like that, then go for it. I'd opt for the legacy though if u dislike the idea.
If you move away from AWD only i can give u more options. Keep in mind AWD always has alot of drivetrain lose so the performance you see in an AWD vehcile on paper is at the dyno, u get much less to the ground then a regular RWD, or even FWD car. The sti dynos at about 240 hp. No where near what they claim (I think its 287 hp is it? bhp) .

Also, theres a new volkswagen awd car that just came out, it's similar looking to the GTI, It's called the r32. Car and driver reviews it in sept 2004 issue. Similar output to a WRX, at 240 BHP, and they ran 14.3, not bad.

It's more audi then VW, but has the outside look of a VW. Turbo, and nice package overall. It's in this months car and driver.

I think you should just get an a4 with sports package. The AWD performance cars that are in the affordable price range (sub 35k) are all kids cars. If you really want to step and look at the higher end audis (not the s4, how about the rs8 or rs4)

Other then that, u really do get what u pay for. With those u suggest (evo, sti etc) your a kids fantasy performance car, the STI is a riceboys wet dream ; )

 

[Elec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg get the STI, or if u want more of a sedan less kid-type car. The new legacy turbo is out real soon. It's not as powerful as the STI, but it's about 250hp, and sedan refinements, looks alot classier. The sti has the bigger engine of course, and will really take to modding. The STI version of the legazy is probablly due out in a bout a year i guess.

The '05 Legacy GT has actually been out a while now. Chinchy has one, if you want to ask his opinion of it, but I'd definitely put it on the list of cars to check out, based on your wish list. AWD, turbo 4 cylinder with 250hp, 250ft/lb torque. I haven't seen too many hard numbers, but it looks to be around 6 seconds 0-60 with a manual. And if you don't want the manual, it has a 5 speed automatic with a sportshift feature. You can get it in Limited trim which basically adds leather, a moonroof, and a fancier climate control for around $30k, a bit more loaded and/or with auto. It's still a Subaru, but it's been positioned at the near-luxury segment. It seems like a really great compromise between all out performance, all out luxury, and cost. It's bigger and softer sprung than a WRX STi or Evo, so it'd probably make a better daily driver.

The Legacy GT actually has the same engine as the WRX STi, give or take. Both 2.5 liter horizontally opposed 4 cylinders. The WRX STi is obviously tuned more aggressively and, I believe, has a larger turbo. I haven't heard anything official about a Legacy STi coming to America, but a lot of people want one.

 

[Nightfall]

Thanks for all of your input mjg. I share many of your thoughts/concerns regarding the STi/EVO class of cars. Thats what is making this choice such a difficult one. They simply represent one of the very few options available to me.
The A4 isnt going to work though. I had one prior to the two TT's, and my best friend also owns one thats only 6 months old. Nice car, but underpowered and not a stellar handler. And going from the style/cachet of the TT to an A4 would be a big backward step. The S4 would be perfect, but I cant swing a $50k car lease.
As for the 330XI, its also only got 225 hp, and is at the wrong end the 3 series in most ways. I've driven one, and was underwhelmed. Especially for 40k. An awd M3 would be great, but that would probably cost $60k.
Front wheel drives arent an option, and certainly no rear wheelers. Its not possible to ascend the hill I live on without AWD, in the snow, in any reliable, repeatable way, trust me, I've done it, repeatedly trying to get visiting friends, family vehicles up to my house. You literally have to back up two blocks, build up speed, hit the bottom of the hill going 40mph minimum, in snow, and pray you make it over the mid point of the hill and dont go down backwards, which happens a LOT. In fact, its not even very possible to work your way through the hilly terrain leading to where I live with fwd, unless your damned good, lucky, or both. Thats why AWD is a given here.


JC



Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg i hate the evo, get the STI, or if u want more of a sedan less kid-type car. The new legacy turbo is out real soon. It's not as powerful as the STI, but it's about 250hp, and sedan refinements, looks alot classier. The sti has the bigger engine of course, and will really take to modding. The STI version of the legazy is probablly due out in a bout a year i guess. Other cars to look at are the 330XI (awd 3 series) The new turbo forrester is actually a very quick car, its an SUV but it will run a low 14 iread somewhere. The STI isn't a refined car, keep that in mine. It's AWD, quick as hell, and has serious mod potential, but it's not luxury, not even a sedan. The interior is cheesy, and definatly a ricey type of car, which might not be what you want. The car will get you noticed all the time, and antognized to race, if u can deal with driving a hot car like that, then go for it. I'd opt for the legacy though if u dislike the idea. If you move away from AWD only i can give u more options. Keep in mind AWD always has alot of drivetrain lose so the performance you see in an AWD vehcile on paper is at the dyno, u get much less to the ground then a regular RWD, or even FWD car. The sti dynos at about 240 hp. No where near what they claim (I think its 287 hp is it? bhp) . Also, theres a new volkswagen awd car that just came out, it's similar looking to the GTI, It's called the r32. Car and driver reviews it in sept 2004 issue. Similar output to a WRX, at 240 BHP, and they ran 14.3, not bad. It's more audi then VW, but has the outside look of a VW. Turbo, and nice package overall. It's in this months car and driver. I think you should just get an a4 with sports package. The AWD performance cars that are in the affordable price range (sub 35k) are all kids cars. If you really want to step and look at the higher end audis (not the s4, how about the rs8 or rs4) Other then that, u really do get what u pay for. With those u suggest (evo, sti etc) your a kids fantasy performance car, the STI is a riceboys wet dream ; )

 

[Mr.PD]

Saab 92X is AWD. Only 224 HP though. Don't know much about them.
The new Ford 500 is an AWD sedan. This doesn't sound like what you are looking for though.
With your price range, I don't know of any performance AWD that you haven't already thought of, or had.

 

[ogewo]

I'd like to focus on your comment:

Quote:

I also have "some" concerns about using the WRX-STi or the EVO as a daily vehicle. Their ride is more than a wee bit harsh, and for those of you who dont know personally, Michigan roads include regular gauntlets of serious potholes, bumps, etc. etc. etc. Now understand, I've always driven performance oriented vehicles, and the TT doesent ride like its on cushions either, but I know people with Corvettes who also have STi's, and EVO's in their family stable, or have driven them extensively, and they complain about the ride of those vehicles.

This is one of the main conflicts of having automobiles as a hobby. One car is never perfect for both work and play. My opinion? Get two cars! It's much more feasable than you might think. The idea is to get one car that makes no compromises for luxury and one that will not let you down on the track. A car to drive and a car to get somewhere. In headphone terms, a car that is transparent, that you forget about, and a car that adds coloration, a unique flavor.

On that note, doing your racing exclusively on a track will prove much more enjoyable than trying to do it on the way home from work. You'll become a better driver and experience the real limits of an automobile. You'll be going fast in a safe, legal, more challanging environment.

Financing a used car is probably the only feasable way to go about doing this. That may throw you off, but financially you come out better this way. Financing used can cost about the same as leasing new, but in the end you've got something to sell. At the end of a lease you have nothing. Money down the drain.

For example:
A generation or two old subaru 2.5rs, eclipse gsx. You can get these on the cheap and enjoy a WORLD of aftermarket parts to turn these into full time track cars that will be an experience like you've never had before. But now that we intend to buy a commuter theres no real reason to limit yourself to AWD. An RWD solution would be just as good on the track, FWD even. Now we're talking nissan 300zx, older m3, older corvette, mustang, mazda rx7, acura integra, any ricer really. Over time you'll put a few bucks into the parts that matter and come up with something better than straight out of the factory. Anyway, I'm sure you'll come up with something cool to trick out

For the main car-about-town, why not treat yourself to a roomy, powerful SUV? Not only AWD but the ground clearance to really make a difference in the snow. A big V8 will also have the torque that a small sports car might lack, a factor for getting out of the snow. You could get any number of used SUVs for a reasonable price, all being better daily drivers than a dropped whatever. If gas mileage is a major concern, subaru makes plenty of sadans and wagons with AWD. Otherwise a used saab or volvo wagon would work great.

How many members here have one headphone/amp/source for all their listening needs? AKG K1000 is a great set of cans, but for that price some UE5cs and a pair of Axiom M22ti bookshelf speakers is much more versatile, and in some key areas may suit your needs better. That might make no sense, but its 3:30am here. My brain hurts too much to even read over what I've already typed. If anything isn't clear lemme know tomorrow and maybe I can elaborate on what I was trying to say.

good luck!

 

[Nightfall]

Some interesting thoughts, ogewo, thanks, very much, for taking the time to point them out.
Your options dont really work for my situation though. I work a lot of hours, and spare time is elusive any time except late at night. I dont really have the time, or the local facilities available to race, unfortunately. And while the idea of taking a good used semi-performance bargain and using aftermarket parts to make it something special certainly appeals to me, I must confess that I am seriously mentally challenged when attempting to work with anything mechanical. I know how to order cars, and how to drive them, but thats the extent of it. I finished in the sixth from last place in mechanical aptitude in my high school class, and for good reason. I tried on a couple of occasions to change the oil in my motorcycle and completed the task with parts leftover, if thats any indication of my abilities in this regard.
What I need is a daily driver capable of soild accleration, excellent handling and overall performance with some luxury, and very good reliability. This car would be used to commute to and from work over sometimes less than ideal roads, an occasional vacation trip to Canada, Chicago, etc. I am beginning to think that combination dosent exist. See my next post for more info. And thanks again for your well thought out alternatives.


JC

 

[Nightfall]

Good points. All out performance isnt necessary, but good solid performance, including excellent handling is. Also a requirement is an acceptable degree of civility I drove the 330xi on Friday and was underwhelmed, especially for a $40k car. It does handle quite well,as would be expected, but is notably lacking in power to match.
I also managed a two test drives at a Subaru dealer yesterday. First was the Legacy GT. And while this car is certainly a fine value at $30k, it lacks the character, and solidity I want, and the performance is solid but mostly unexceptional. It handles reasonably well, acclerates well, but simply isnt the overall package I'm looking for. Its lacking in quality of comfort, amenities, and the interior just isnt at the level I'm used to. Again, I'm comparing it to vehicles at or near $40k, so its not meant as a knock on a fine vehicle at its price point.
Next up was the WRX-STi. This car handles and acclerates superbly and has excellent seats. For short term fun, this thing is a blast. Thats about where it ends for me, though. The interior seems cheap and tacky, there is little or no refinement overall and its ride is painfully uncomfortable in driving over the uneven road surfaces and potholes that characterize the greater Detroit metropolitan area where I live. It also suffers from significant turbo lag when being driven in slower traffic conditions. As a daily driver, commuter and travel vehicle its simply not workable, imo.
The G35 fit so much of the profile of what I'm looking for. However, without the option of ordering the sports package (including larger wheels, tires and the sports suspension improvements) along with the AWD package, Infiniti has submarined my choice of it. What a shame.
My options seem to be dropping by the wayside.

JC

 

[Jasper994]

What about the Volvo S40 T5 AWD? I know it's a step down but it's a nice car and since it's smaller the 218hp shouldn't be too bad...

 

[Oink1]

From what you've listed i'd go with the sti....

 

[mjg]

he doesn't want the STI, i don't blame him.

I'd only get one if i was driving an awesome sedan as a daily driver.

Seriously man, look into a RWD car like a used m5 or e55 amg ; )


Maybe you can snatch one of them off a lease. You Get it all right there my friend ; )

 

[Nightfall]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg Seriously man, look into a RWD car like a used m5 or e55 amg ; ) Maybe you can snatch one of them off a lease. You Get it all right there my friend ; )

Yes, I would certainly have it all, those are superb cars. I would just have to park somewhere, about four blocks from my house all winter, and walk to and from my car every morning and night!

JC

 

[dSquared]

There's the Saab 9-2X Aero.

I've never driven one (or even seen one in person), but it's one car not on your list. It's not as upscale as the TT, but it's got the AWD and a performance package. . .

 

[D-EJ915]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD Saab 92X is AWD. Only 224 HP though. Don't know much about them. The new Ford 500 is an AWD sedan. This doesn't sound like what you are looking for though. With your price range, I don't know of any performance AWD that you haven't already thought of, or had.

It's a restyled Impreza WRX...and personally the Impreza looks better.

I'm a huge Impreza fan, get the STi

(it has better color options also...)