LAiV Harmony R2R DAC Impression and Reviews

[Chibs]

Iam really confused and have been sitting on the dac fence for a few years now. The others that appealed to me, only by reviews alone are the T+A Dac200 and the Wave dream. The chord line seems to be due for a replacement, so not considering them at the moment. If money wasnt an issue I would get an Esoteric N-05XD, but sadly it is. So Considering the Laiv, as Iam looking for a neutral and resolving, but natural sounding dac. Rest of my chain is all tubes, so a warm dac will make it all too sleepy I guess.

I’m assuming you’re unable to demo or buy with a good return policy?
It’s tough going off of reviews alone so I understand your hesitation. Especially since the rest of your chain is tube based (so many variables!) I wouldn’t necessarily dismiss Chord because they’re due for an upgrade. Good sound won’t go out of style. There’s always going to be something new around the corner and you’ve already waited a few years. Everything you’ve listed including the Harmony DAC is a decent choice though. Look at the features they offer you and how they fit into your use case. Just my 2 cents. Good luck deciding!

 

[Chibs]

Is there a Laiv harmony review in the works from you Mr. Chibs? -fan of your channel

Thanks man! Yes, definitely in the works

 

[wrxsti09]

I’m assuming you’re unable to demo or buy with a good return policy?
It’s tough going off of reviews alone so I understand your hesitation. Especially since the rest of your chain is tube based (so many variables!) I wouldn’t necessarily dismiss Chord because they’re due for an upgrade. Good sound won’t go out of style. There’s always going to be something new around the corner and you’ve already waited a few years. Everything you’ve listed including the Harmony DAC is a decent choice though. Look at the features they offer you and how they fit into your use case. Just my 2 cents. Good luck deciding!

Thanks sir..I agree good sound never goes out of style

Iam not averse to considering a Chord dac if its sounds natural. My only requirements are a massive sound stage and real sounding voices and instruments. The level of detail or precision of imaging dont really matter much. From my reading alone, I get the impression that R2R dacs do this better than chip based dacs. And I have no idea how Chord's FPGA based dacs measure in this parameter. Hence my curiosity.

I think most modern dacs will out resolve what I already have. I did try a gustard X26 pro at home to see how far dacs have come. And it probably had a smidge more detail compared to my aging Esoteric K-01 CD player used as a dac, when both were fed from my Lumin U1X streamer. But it was not an apples to apples comparison, as I was testing DSD into the X26 pro via a Tellurium black 2 usb cable. And normal 44 khz via a hifidelity coaxial cable into the esoteric. So both formats and cables were different. But the esoteric still had a very noticeably wider sound stage and more dynamic impact.

Considering my above tests at home, felt that I cannot sacrifice sound stage size for that smidge more detail. Hence, my search for a dac that has a massive sound stage size, and sounds more natural like live music if possible. Though Iam aware that a dac singularly cannot make my system sound live. But no harm trying

 

[adeadcrab]

Thanks sir..I agree good sound never goes out of style

Iam not averse to considering a Chord dac if its sounds natural. My only requirements are a massive sound stage and real sounding voices and instruments. The level of detail or precision of imaging dont really matter much. From my reading alone, I get the impression that R2R dacs do this better than chip based dacs. And I have no idea how Chord's FPGA based dacs measure in this parameter. Hence my curiosity.

I think most modern dacs will out resolve what I already have. I did try a gustard X26 pro at home to see how far dacs have come. And it probably had a smidge more detail compared to my aging Esoteric K-01 CD player used as a dac, when both were fed from my Lumin U1X streamer. But it was not an apples to apples comparison, as I was testing DSD into the X26 pro via a Tellurium black 2 usb cable. And normal 44 khz via a hifidelity coaxial cable into the esoteric. So both formats and cables were different. But the esoteric still had a very noticeably wider sound stage and more dynamic impact.

Considering my above tests at home, felt that I cannot sacrifice sound stage size for that smidge more detail. Hence, my search for a dac that has a massive sound stage size, and sounds more natural like live music if possible. Though Iam aware that a dac singularly cannot make my system sound live. But no harm trying

You may like a tube based DAC such as the Lampizator Baltic.

As a general rule, for staging, tubes -> R2R -> Delta Sigma.

 

[obstacleofaffliction]

Deleted

 

[OhmsClaw]

Thanks sir..I agree good sound never goes out of style

Iam not averse to considering a Chord dac if its sounds natural. My only requirements are a massive sound stage and real sounding voices and instruments. The level of detail or precision of imaging dont really matter much. From my reading alone, I get the impression that R2R dacs do this better than chip based dacs. And I have no idea how Chord's FPGA based dacs measure in this parameter. Hence my curiosity.

I think most modern dacs will out resolve what I already have. I did try a gustard X26 pro at home to see how far dacs have come. And it probably had a smidge more detail compared to my aging Esoteric K-01 CD player used as a dac, when both were fed from my Lumin U1X streamer. But it was not an apples to apples comparison, as I was testing DSD into the X26 pro via a Tellurium black 2 usb cable. And normal 44 khz via a hifidelity coaxial cable into the esoteric. So both formats and cables were different. But the esoteric still had a very noticeably wider sound stage and more dynamic impact.

Considering my above tests at home, felt that I cannot sacrifice sound stage size for that smidge more detail. Hence, my search for a dac that has a massive sound stage size, and sounds more natural like live music if possible. Though Iam aware that a dac singularly cannot make my system sound live. But no harm trying

R2R Dac + Tube Pre + TOTL power amp class A

The Tube buffer DAC's like the Pagoda are cool in that you can upgrade the chip with unicorn gold crown chips and Tube roll your buffer stage, but that's alot of work(research and tracking sales) and money for being limited to red book rates.

 

[BlackMagic]

Rest of my chain is all tubes, so a warm dac will make it all too sleepy I guess.

I perhaps delve into reviews more than most – enthusiast first and foremost. I’m fairly familiar with High-Fidelity’s reviews (also preferring CD source), having owned some of the gear he’s reviewed over the years. Whilst not stated exactly (unfortunately), in use are the Ayon CDP + Ayon Spheris III Preamplifier – into a very resolving/transparent (apparently) Soulution 710 Amplifier.

The Ayon gear are Tube designs (so some cumulative flavour ?) – countered by the ‘unflavoured’ Amp. In his review of the Soundaware DAM 1 (which he liked) : “However, I preferred the sound with an external Preamplifier”. So he likes a ‘little’ warmth. Nit-picking but to be fair, I don’t expect him to remember everything he’s written - “The (Harmony) has no output signal regulation, it is a "pure" DAC. And good. I know from experience that it is better to leave this function to external devices”. Not always the case, in another of his Dac reviews with which I’m familiar.

I’m still waiting for my unit but in the meantime I should get a used Topping Pre90 tom – does not break the Bank and according to most transparent. However, one Tuber claims in use, it coloured the sound. You can’t win. There’s a couple more reviews in the pipeline, with different viewpoints, so may add some things to the mix. Mr. ‘Twittering’, probably paired with his Tube Amp but if others on hand maybe those.

 

[]eep]

J

You may like a tube based DAC such as the Lampizator Baltic.

As a general rule, for staging, tubes -> R2R -> Delta Sigma.

That's really comparing apples and pears. Only SD DACs need amplification by tubes or opamp. R2R (except some old IC based) do not need tubes. In my experience tubes don't inject any magic. I have a lot of tube gear bit i don't like tube buffers. In most cases (I'm not saying always) tubes just add harmonic distortion and noise. If you add tubes to a sigma delta you will never get the benefits of R2R. Simply put: tubes won't get rid of the pre-ringing of SD.

I like my tubes straight up. Doing amplifying. Not adding some sound. The tube gear I have (had) never sound tubey, warm or rounded. They sound neutral just with more natural midrange and treble. Bass is always loose (poweramps).

Sorry WRX... technical talk is basic understanding of what sound you can expect. If you don't understand or like to read it, just skip it.

 

[wrxsti09]

J

That's really comparing apples and pears. Only SD DACs need amplification by tubes or opamp. R2R (except some old IC based) do not need tubes. In my experience tubes don't inject any magic. I have a lot of tube gear bit i don't like tube buffers. In most cases (I'm not saying always) tubes just add harmonic distortion and noise. If you add tubes to a sigma delta you will never get the benefits of R2R. Simply put: tubes won't get rid of the pre-ringing of SD.

I like my tubes straight up. Doing amplifying. Not adding some sound. The tube gear I have (had) never sound tubey, warm or rounded. They sound neutral just with more natural midrange and treble. Bass is always loose (poweramps).

Sorry WRX... technical talk is basic understanding of what sound you can expect. If you don't understand or like to read it, just skip it.

Haha..no worries sir

I did skip most of the pages, till it got too tiring

Even I use tube poweramps in my chain. And the SET's do sound exactly like your goodselves describe them to be. I also have EL34's that I deliberately under bias by about 80 Mv, to get more distortion out of them. This coupled with zero negative feedback, produces a very colored and distorted sound that I absolutely love. Somehow everything just sounds way more real, with lot more body. I do loose imaging precision and some bass control way low, but the improvements in body and tone make it worth while.

Hence the thought of adding more tonal accuracy or color, with a dac that complements this signature. Lampizator has been suggested above, but some friends tell me that unless I go upto the Atlantic TRP range, I will not be getting the detail Iam used to. And some suggested adding a tube preamp instead of settling for the entry level Lampizators.

As I mentioned before, Iam too confused at the moment. But have a DIY tube preamp incoming, built by a person with a lifetime of experience building tubed gear from mostly Audionote parts in the UK.

Subsequently, I saw mentions of the Laiv preserving detail while sounding tonally rich. That piqued my curiosity.

 

[]eep]

I

Haha..no worries sir

I did skip most of the pages, till it got too tiring

Even I use tube poweramps in my chain. And the SET's do sound exactly like your goodselves describe them to be. I also have EL34's that I deliberately under bias by about 80 Mv, to get more distortion out of them. This coupled with zero negative feedback, produces a very colored and distorted sound that I absolutely love. Somehow everything just sounds way more real, with lot more body. I do loose imaging precision and some bass control way low, but the improvements in body and tone make it worth while.

Hence the thought of adding more tonal accuracy or color, with a dac that complements this signature. Lampizator has been suggested above, but some friends tell me that unless I go upto the Atlantic TRP range, I will not be getting the detail Iam used to. And some suggested adding a tube preamp instead of settling for the entry level Lampizators.

As I mentioned before, Iam too confused at the moment. But have a DIY tube preamp incoming, built by a person with a lifetime of experience building tubed gear from mostly Audionote parts in the UK.

Subsequently, I saw mentions of the Laiv preserving detail while sounding tonally rich. That piqued my curiosity.

I presently have a 300B, KT88 and 6p1 single ended tube amps. Two phonostages EAR834 clone (ECC82) and Klimo clone (ECC 88). And a tube dac I totally modified myself to much higher levels. I replaced power caps, removed opamps, replaced the dac-chip for AKM, rebalanced the tube levels and put some Raytheon NOS tubes in. Far better than my expensive Myriad Cd-player. But after I bought a (very cheap $45) 4xTDA1543 dac (old Philips R2R chip) in parallel) and did some mods on the passive filter, that tube dac had to make way. The natural timbre, lack of listening fatigue, natural sense of space makes it much closer to what I experienced in real live settings. The tube dac (ie a sigma delta dac) just added a sprinkle of fake pixie dust, less defined. Like a low quality photo with a lot of photoshop compared to a decent photo without any processing.

Although it must be said that sigma delta DACs as well as R2R have improved considerably over the last decade. There is still that difference in character.

PS: I'm using none of my tube gear atm. For the best sound I use a top turntable That's why I will be buying the Laiv soon to pull up the digital side to a higher level.

 

[StarlingCurve]

Thanks man! Yes, definitely in the works

For those of us deciding between the cyan 2 and the Laiv Harmony, give us an early hint?

 

[christopherivan]

For those of us deciding between the cyan 2 and the Laiv Harmony, give us an early hint?

I second this!

 

[Dan31620]

Yes, I'm also interested.
I have a Merason Frerot and a Cyan 2.
I pre-ordered a Laiv Harmony on Audiophonics and I'm not sure if it worth it...

 

[Lucus]

For those of us deciding between the cyan 2 and the Laiv Harmony, give us an early hint?

Come on....The LAiV is a challenger of the May, so there is no match between Harmony and Cyan. It is a complete different league.

 

[Lucus]

I really do not expect an upscale dedicated discrete R2R DAC to be equipped with a digital volume control. You know why? Because an R2R dac has a minimal output stage that keeps the signal as pure as possible. A digital volume has to be done before the R2R ladder. Therefore discarding bitdepth. So you are going from 24 bit to 14 bit, 12 bit or 8 bit, depending on your volume position. That is a very bad and stupid way to attenuate a high power poweramp without volume.

I disagree
Modern digital attenuation is being done on 1, max 2 bits. And the majority of the DACs are not using the full 24 bits, but only 20, or 21. So plenty of bits left to execute proper attenuation. And this will be the best and most transparent volume control you can have. If you only have 1 source, and the imput impedance of your amp is high enough, absolutely no need of a preamp (or you like the distortion/coloration the later is adding...)
It is very sorry the LAiV has no volume attenuation. I could live with Coax imput, but volume control is a must in a modern DAC