L0rdGwyn's DIY Audio
Jun 20, 2021 at 11:19 PM Post #2,716 of 6,805
Congrats! But you know the drill: pics or it didn't happen. :smile:

Oh god, do you even want to know?

Considering the insane prices these days, I bought an unfinished quonset hut home. The shed where I am setting up my electronics looks more livable than the house.

In fact I am sitting here taking a break from hanging a door on the bathroom. We are talking THAT level of unfinished.

But the flip side is that we have 50 acres of land here with no convenience, zoning, or anything of the sort. I can take pictures of the land, but the house is an utter dumpster fire at the moment.
 
Jun 21, 2021 at 12:20 AM Post #2,717 of 6,805
In fact I am sitting here taking a break from hanging a door on the bathroom. We are talking THAT level of unfinished.

But the flip side is that we have 50 acres of land here with no convenience, zoning, or anything of the sort. I can take pictures of the land, but the house is an utter dumpster fire at the moment.

50 Acres! WOW! You will have to start a "Head-Fi Boot Camp / Retreat" :wink:
Sounds fun! Good luck getting everything straightened out.
 
Jun 21, 2021 at 12:48 AM Post #2,718 of 6,805
Awesome, can't wait to see what you work on with that space!

Yeah, it will still be a little while before things are setup. The first thing will be to finalize all the projects for @johnjen. I was going to a maker space to work on stuff, but when covid hit, they shut down. Even today they are still really picky about how many people are in the space at one time which makes getting stuff done a real pain.

Once John is taken care of, then I will focus on that H bridge amp I showed you (and possibly everyone? I don't remember). The thing I am still stuck on with that amp is the driver/phase splitter stage.

The whole idea behind the H bridge amp is to see what would happen if you try to maximize square law cancelation with two perfectly matched signals. The problem is that every phase splitter is pretty flawed. A transformer is probably the best phase splitter I know of, and it adds a pretty large amount of phase shift to the amp. Things only get worse from there. This is part of the reason GNFB is a thing. It helps "fix" the problems created by the phase splitter.

I need to create a phase splitter that will produce equal gain with output signals that are perfectly in time with each other. I am not entirely sure this is possible
 
Jun 21, 2021 at 11:49 AM Post #2,720 of 6,805
All of my OTL parts arrived today, will start working on the prototype Wednesday :)

In the mean time, I have been doing some deep dive reading on NOS R2R DAC design, specifically around I/V conversion stages. Many of these DACs are current output types and are intended to work into a minimal impedance, the lower the better. This current output needs to be converted into a workable voltage, hence the I/V conversion. That voltage can then be amplified to line level through some sort of gain stage, ideally with a low output impedance.

The "best" I/V conversion is a bit controversial I am finding, as usual there are pros can cons to each. The simplest, and probably most common, is a resistor - the current output from the DAC IC creates a voltage across said resistor and that voltage can then be amplified. The value of the resistor often is tuned by measurements and ear, finding a balance between distortion, output voltage, and noise.

Another less common passive approach is to use a DAC interfacing SUT. The transformer adds some gain to the I/V stage, allows the I/V resistor to remain low and helps match the impedance to the following gain stage, if needed. The transformer also has the advantage of a "built in" low pass filter. It also breaks the ground connection between the DAC and the output stage, keeping quantization noise out of the output ground. This is pretty appealing, although opinions are mixed as whether or not it is an improvement over a resistor.

The other option is an "active" I/V stage, using a transistor or op-amp typically. This is the approach taken by SW1X, for instance, and many sing its praises.

I think this is just going to take some experimentation! No rush whatsoever as I have to plan the power supply anyhow, which will be the bulk of the work. As cliché as it is, I am likely going to base this design on the famous TDA1541A.
 
Last edited:
Jun 21, 2021 at 12:48 PM Post #2,721 of 6,805
All of my OTL parts arrived today, will start working on the prototype Wednesday :)

In the mean time, I have been doing some deep dive reading on NOS R2R DAC design, specifically around I/V conversion stages. Many of these DACs are current output types and are intended to work into a minimal impedance, the lower the better. This current output needs to be converted into a workable voltage, hence the I/V conversion. That voltage can then be amplified to line level through some sort of gain stage, ideally with a low output impedance.

The "best" I/V conversion is a bit controversial I am finding, as usual there are pros can cons to each. The simplest, and probably most common, is a resistor - the current output from the DAC IC creates a voltage across said resistor and that voltage can then be amplified. The value of the resistor often is tuned by measurements and ear, finding a balance between distortion, output voltage, and noise.

Another less common passive approach is to use a DAC interfacing SUT. The transformer adds some gain to the I/V stage, allows the I/V resistor to remain low and helps match the impedance to the following gain stage, if needed. The transformer also has the advantage of a "built in" low pass filter. It also breaks the ground connection between the DAC and the output stage, keeping quantization noise out of the output ground. This is pretty appealing, although opinions are mixed as whether or not it is an improvement over a resistor.

The other option is an "active" I/V stage, using a transistor or op-amp typically. This is the approach taken by SW1X, for instance, and many sing its praises.

I think this is just going to take some experimentation! No rush whatsoever as I have to plan the power supply anyhow, which will be the bulk of the work. As cliché as it is, I am likely going to base this design on the famous TDA1541A.

Yeup.

The two main goals are to make an IV stage with 0 input impedance and to keep that input at ground potential.

I have been passively looking at IV stages for years and while all the different IV stages can be made to sound REALLY good, none of them are perfect.
 
Jun 21, 2021 at 1:54 PM Post #2,722 of 6,805
I have been passively looking at IV stages for years and while all the different IV stages can be made to sound REALLY good, none of them are perfect.
...and I thought that sounding REALLY good is what we're all after! :wink:
 
Jun 21, 2021 at 7:06 PM Post #2,724 of 6,805
Here are the planned output caps for the 6AS7G OTL, 265uF ClarityCaps.

PXL_20210621_230025240-2.jpg

If all goes to plan, they will top mounted, visible on the exterior of the chassis. Here's how they look in that orientation.

PXL_20210621_230045099-2.jpg
 
Jun 22, 2021 at 12:27 AM Post #2,725 of 6,805
Here are the planned output caps for the 6AS7G OTL, 265uF ClarityCaps.

PXL_20210621_230025240-2.jpg

If all goes to plan, they will top mounted, visible on the exterior of the chassis. Here's how they look in that orientation.

PXL_20210621_230045099-2.jpg
Nice. I went with Clarity caps as well in the V6. TC600.
 
Jun 23, 2021 at 7:33 PM Post #2,726 of 6,805
Some small progress made on the OTL today, board stuffing mostly.

Active load for 6J5 input on the left (gyrator) and single-channel raw DC board on the right - there will be two. The raw DC board includes transformer snubbing components, secondary fuse, current-limiting resistors, bleeder resistor, and reservoir cap. Having it in front of me, one aspect of the raw DC board layout needs to be altered, this is why we prototype :)
 
Last edited:
Jun 24, 2021 at 5:57 PM Post #2,727 of 6,805
OTL prototype is coming along, slowly but surely. Power supply is just about done, should have the circuit functional tomorrow.

Testing with some Russian 6AS7G and 6J5 equivalents.

Progress has been hampered by NOS R2R DAC research LOL I am very excited about it. I've spent many hours over the past four days poring over datasheets, schematics, learning digital front-end design, digital audio protocols, design requirements for specific chips, various I/V stages, etc. Last night everything really started to click, I now feel quite confident I could design a DAC similar to my SW1X. Still more to learn, but always exciting when the pieces start falling into place, conceptually. Which chip I will use first has changed about five times and they have different requirements, so we will see, a plan is taking shape :)
 
Last edited:
Jun 25, 2021 at 10:20 AM Post #2,728 of 6,805
6AS7G OTL prototype is up and running. Tested with Russian tubes, now have some proper hifi glass in circuit, MOV L63 and Tung-Sol 5998.

Nice clean square waves, good frequency response. Low-frequency rolloff in an OTL increases as the impedance of the load decreases, so to get good bass response in low-impedance headphones, need a hefty amount of output capacitance. Given the 265uF output caps, FR is down -1dB at 20Hz with a 32ohm dummy load, most everything else is flat to 20Hz.

Even with a less-than-ideal source (my audio interface DAC that I use for testing), the sound is very good, I'm pleased with it. Still some design things to figure out, but overall things are trending the right direction :)

Now I will take a break and...read more about DACs LOL.

(My Cleveland Browns are coming for you NFL fans).
 
Last edited:
Jun 25, 2021 at 10:37 AM Post #2,729 of 6,805
Just for my own edification since I might do an OTL as well, could you throw a high quality 0.22uf cap across your output caps to see what it does to the sound quality.

It doesn't have to be now, but at some point if you get around to it, I would really be curious.
 
Jun 25, 2021 at 10:46 AM Post #2,730 of 6,805
Just for my own edification since I might do an OTL as well, could you throw a high quality 0.22uf cap across your output caps to see what it does to the sound quality.

It doesn't have to be now, but at some point if you get around to it, I would really be curious.

It's funny you mention it, I thought about trying the same. I'll give it a shot, only problem is I don't have anything fancy on hand in the 0.22-0.47uF range - just some 0.47uF polypropylene Audyn caps, some Solens. I'll try the Audyn caps, if there is some audible improvement, maybe I'll grab some bang-for-the-buck PIO caps to try out.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top