[Tjj226 Angel]

@Xcalibur255

No, cleaning up your PC power is not the same as a USB decrapifier.

When you use so called synchronous USB your internal dac clock is slave to your PC. That means your Dac's jitter performance is almost entirely dependent on what is happening with your computer.

Unfortunately no matter what you do, your PC will always be a noisy environment and your clock/jitter performance will suffer. You can improve it with better power supplies and so on, but all you are doing is putting lip stick on a pig.

So long as you are not listening to DSD or some very high sample rate music, I would encourage you to look at using optical spdif with a better than walmart brand quality cable. Preferably a true glass cable. But if you have a M-ITX computer, I am going to take a wild guess and say you are probably limited to USB.

In which case, I would encourage you to look for some type of USB decrapifier that coverts your Synchronous USB to Asynchronous USB. Fair warning, they are very expensive and hard to find. I haven't found one that I would recommend, but I haven't looked that hard either.

With Asynchronous usb, you are just sending bits to your dac. The clock signal is actually discarded and the clock in your dac (or an external after market master clock) can take over.

Even if you want to cheap out and find a USB decrapifier that uses some decent galvantic isolation, you would still be better off.

 

[tubebuyer2020]

Schiit Yggdrasil, and it is indeed fed with USB. I have found that cleaner power into the computer has about the same effect as those USB decrapifiers have more or less. The power supply in the PC has good regulation but I doubt it really filters anything that's coming into it for noise. The CPU and critical sections will of course have their own regulation but the 5V supply that powers USB and such seems to be at the mercy of whatever is coming in from the IEC receptacle.

I realize it's not a good platform for an audiophile listening setup, but it's what I prefer. I do all my listening while seated in front of this PC so there's no sense in having a music server or dedicated streaming device when it's all sitting right in front of me anyway.

But is Yggdrasil actually getting 5v power via USB? I had an issue with my Khadas and a Garage1217 amp where there was hum at very loud volumes. I solved it with iFi gadgets to inject clean 5v power into the USB for Khadas. The setup is now absolutely quiet at maximum volume. I doubt this is the issue you are facing, but just wanted to add my amateur 5 pence.

 

[Xcalibur255]

I am pretty much forced into USB, but forced isn't the right word for it anyway. I was eager to get away from SPDIF output because the sample rate can't be dynamically changed. I researched this to death and couldn't find a soundcard, even a professional one, that did. You specify a sampling rate in the output and it's locked. What I wanted was intelligent pass-though, that way if I play a 44.1/16 file and then the next file is 24/96 I want it to just send the appropriate sample rate to the DAC. USB via ASIO does this, but every SPDIF output I've seen on every soundcard has you pick one from a dropdown list and that's it, it will resample to that rate if the source doesn't match. Having to go into the driver between tracks was a hassle I wanted to do away with.

As for Yggdrasil according to what I have read its USB input is asynchronous. I'm sure it could be improved upon of course but I didn't think I was in terrible shape on that front.

 

[Tjj226 Angel]

I am pretty much forced into USB, but forced isn't the right word for it anyway. I was eager to get away from SPDIF output because the sample rate can't be dynamically changed. I researched this to death and couldn't find a soundcard, even a professional one, that did. You specify a sampling rate in the output and it's locked. What I wanted was intelligent pass-though, that way if I play a 44.1/16 file and then the next file is 24/96 I want it to just send the appropriate sample rate to the DAC. USB via ASIO does this, but every SPDIF output I've seen on every soundcard has you pick one from a dropdown list and that's it, it will resample to that rate if the source doesn't match. Having to go into the driver between tracks was a hassle I wanted to do away with.

As for Yggdrasil according to what I have read its USB input is asynchronous. I'm sure it could be improved upon of course but I didn't think I was in terrible shape on that front.

Which version of USB do you have with your Yggdrasil?

 

[Xcalibur255]

It came with Gen 3 and I upgraded it to Gen 5 a while back.

I suspect a combination of a few different minor things is to blame ultimately, but I tend to keep working on the things I know and ignore the things I don't. Which is why I have ignored power conditioning all this time.

 

[Tjj226 Angel]

It came with Gen 3 and I upgraded it to Gen 5 a while back.

I suspect a combination of a few different minor things is to blame ultimately, but I tend to keep working on the things I know and ignore the things I don't. Which is why I have ignored power conditioning all this time.

Is gen 5 the unison thing? I can't figure out if the unison usb implementation they have is asynch or not.

 

[johnjen]

No the unison USB is their latest itteration.
The gen 5 USB introduced galvanic isolation (they used ethernet input xfrmrs) to decouple the USB data stream.

JJ

 

[Tjj226 Angel]

No the unison USB is their latest itteration.
The gen 5 USB introduced galvanic isolation (they used ethernet input xfrmrs) to decouple the USB data stream.

JJ

Huh. Interesting.

If Gen 5 has true galvanic isolation (your dac does not share a ground with the PC), the USB connection is self powered, and your dac does not even look at the clock signal from the PC, then improving your pc power supply SHOULD not make a difference if we assume your PC is sending out bits with a near 0 error rate.

Things I would do to improve your system.

1: Get the unison upgrade. Mike Moffat designed it to be the best they have to offer, so you might as well take advantage of it.

2: Make sure you are using a proper USB cable. I can't tell you how many times I have run across cheap USB3 cables that weren't even compliant with USB 2.0 standard.

3: Get a better power supply for your PC. If improving your PC power makes an audible difference in your system, then the most obvious way of improving your setup is to swap power supplies. IDK what you currently have, but the seasonic prime ultra platinum power supply would cut your ripple numbers in half. Silly name for a PSU, but it has amazing performance figures.

4: Listen for and address any coil whine in your PC. I did have a tiny bit of coil wine on my pc for a while and it was causing all kinds of weird issues with my audio. I ended up replacing the motherboard, and the audio went back to being normal.

 

[leftside]

seasonic prime ultra platinum power supply

That's what I have. Put one in when I assembled my media center/audio server PC a couple of years ago. One of the primary concerns for me was actually the quietness of the power supply as the PC is in the living room.

 

[Xcalibur255]

My PC has a SeaSonic Focus SGX. Best power supply you can get in the SFF-L (which my ITX case required) form factor as far as I know. I'm pretty old hat at PC building and am pretty picky about my power supplies.

It's sounding like I have already taken the common sense steps, which makes me feel better. I always wonder if I'm missing something I haven't stumbled across and don't know to research yet, which is why I like to have these conversations. Sometimes somebody will drop a nugget of wisdom that is entirely new and those are invaluable.

It's worth nothing as well that I'm starting to believe more and more that at least part of my problem was the brand of interconnects I was using. I've bought some different ones and have been experiment and so far what I'm hearing strikes me as an improvement. I just rotated my Glenn 45 back in the system tonight so I'll do some listening tests over the next couple of weeks and see where that leads. Maybe I can get to the point where an expensive power conditioner isn't necessary. I suppose that's really what I'm grappling with is the high cost. I want to try and gain some kind of reassurance that the improvement will at least somewhat be worth it, but this particular category of the audiophile world really triggers my snake oil sense. I get a strong feeling that a lot of those fancy boxes that cost thousands of dollars only have a hundred bucks worth of parts inside. I guess that's true of many things in life though, I've just decided to take umbrage with this particular example for some reason.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

My PC has a SeaSonic Focus SGX. Best power supply you can get in the SFF-L (which my ITX case required) form factor as far as I know.

 

[Xcalibur255]

Very clean build!

I built a mini-ITX about that size for a friend last summer and I'll never do it again. Never had such a frustrating build in my life. It turned out well, but man EVERY single cable and connector is a battle in those. It was one of those mini-fridge shaped ones where you work from the top of the case instead of the side. Turns out that isn't an improvement at all when it comes to getting your fingers into places.

I kind of regret building my own machine as an ITX. It's cute and all with its little magnetic folding carry handle and everything but it didn't actually need to be portable, I just liked the idea of it being petite. Next time whenever that is it'll be back to the old tried and true ATX mid tower assuming they still exist at that point.

edit: actually LG is that the Ncase M1 (or its little brother)? If so then it is mostly the same case as mine. Both are made by Lian Li. Did the screwless panel clips give you any trouble? I had to get replacements from them because they were breaking. It's a neat idea but I don't care for the implementation, it kind of makes the case feel a bit cheap and rattly. Having aluminum side panels instead of steel also invites more opportunities for fan vibration resonance. Just goes to show the old ways are best sometimes just like with tubes.

 

[Tjj226 Angel]

Very clean build!

I built a mini-ITX about that size for a friend last summer and I'll never do it again. Never had such a frustrating build in my life. It turned out well, but man EVERY single cable and connector is a battle in those. It was one of those mini-fridge shaped ones where you work from the top of the case instead of the side. Turns out that isn't an improvement at all when it comes to getting your fingers into places.

I kind of regret building my own machine as an ITX. It's cute and all with its little magnetic folding carry handle and everything but it didn't actually need to be portable, I just liked the idea of it being petite. Next time whenever that is it'll be back to the old tried and true ATX mid tower assuming they still exist at that point.

edit: actually LG is that the Ncase M1 (or its little brother)? If so then it is mostly the same case as mine. Both are made by Lian Li. Did the screwless panel clips give you any trouble? I had to get replacements from them because they were breaking. It's a neat idea but I don't care for the implementation, it kind of makes the case feel a bit cheap and rattly. Having aluminum side panels instead of steel also invites more opportunities for fan vibration resonance. Just goes to show the old ways are best sometimes just like with tubes.

Yeup. Same here. I had an Itx build, but I actually built the PC on a small sheet of mdf and hung it off the back side of my monitor to make a bastardization of an Imac.

It worked out well for a long time, but it got tiring real quick. I finally rebuilt my PC a few months ago and did a silent PC with a fractal design case and I don't intend on going back to mini itx for my main rig ever again.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

Very clean build!

I built a mini-ITX about that size for a friend last summer and I'll never do it again. Never had such a frustrating build in my life. It turned out well, but man EVERY single cable and connector is a battle in those. It was one of those mini-fridge shaped ones where you work from the top of the case instead of the side. Turns out that isn't an improvement at all when it comes to getting your fingers into places.

I kind of regret building my own machine as an ITX. It's cute and all with its little magnetic folding carry handle and everything but it didn't actually need to be portable, I just liked the idea of it being petite. Next time whenever that is it'll be back to the old tried and true ATX mid tower assuming they still exist at that point.

edit: actually LG is that the Ncase M1 (or its little brother)? If so then it is mostly the same case as mine. Both are made by Lian Li. Did the screwless panel clips give you any trouble? I had to get replacements from them because they were breaking. It's a neat idea but I don't care for the implementation, it kind of makes the case feel a bit cheap and rattly. Having aluminum side panels instead of steel also invites more opportunities for fan vibration resonance. Just goes to show the old ways are best sometimes just like with tubes.

It is the DAN Case, but manufactured by Lian Li. Can't say if it is still true, but a few years ago, this was the smallest volume case on the market that supported a full-size graphics card. I like that it takes up little space on my desk, and honestly there is just something fun about squeezing a ton of hardware horse power into a tiny form factor. I haven't had any issue with the screwless side panels, it is a very well-made.

I ended up getting the smallest full copper low profile heat sink I could and mated it with a Noctua fan. I delidded the Intel i7-8700K and applied liquid metal directly to the CPU and put it all back together. Stays nice and cool

Here is another nerdy picture I took at the time lol.

 

[leftside]

my snake oil sense. I get a strong feeling that a lot of those fancy boxes that cost thousands of dollars only have a hundred bucks worth of parts inside. I guess that's true of many things in life though, I've just decided to take umbrage with this particular example for some reason.

Open up one of those very expensive (> $10k) branded media servers. You are just paying for a fancy box and the name. Far better off doing it yourself (no soldering - just assembling), or visiting a local PC builder and say you want premium and quiet parts for audio/media center and they will build one for you.