[PhonoPhi]

Superb. Hidizs AP80 Pro X > Fedai 2.5mm balanced cable > BA10. The best BA bass I have heard as well!

Have you compared with AS12?
AS12 still offer the best BA bass (judged on its own) to my ears with those two older Knowles-like bass BAs (as retained in AS16 pro).
BA10 are definitely the most balanced, still seem to be the most balanced KZ all-BA set.

A cursory glance at this it sounds like KZ and others are recommending using impedence adapters much like they do in the microphone world..

All because of the miniscule impedence of all BA IEMs..

At your own risk
Tried this tonight. I knew there is a quality opamp at the Line output stage of my DAC the D10. I've been using a Gershelli Headphone amp with the Topping D10 and sick of the wires and everything. Guess I'm not a amp stack guy . And what's more I have the Gershelli amp on it's lowest output on my ASF at minimum on the dillio. So, I cut out the middleman and connected to the D10 Line Out directly to my ASF. Just amazing. Listening comfortably at 28% volume. Gorgeous details, everything is there--a very present immediate sound.

Very interesting!
So using 100 Ohm output impedance produce pleasing results. From the measurements posted, the mids, especially upper mids at around 1 kHz are more subdued with adaptors for the more fun V shape (?)
KZ still needs to work put "their mids", in my opinion.

I have a caboodle of impedance adapters. I did not find them improving the sound before for me, but possibly I have not used the right sources.

Then a good option to consider as an extreme of impedance adaptors is a simple volume control box, which typically uses a 1 kOhm variable resistor, so you can vary resistance and attenuate the fun factor

 

[Nimweth]

Have you compared with AS12?
AS12 still offer the best BA bass (judged on its own) to my ears with those two older Knowles-like bass BAs (as retained in AS16 pro).
BA10 are definitely the most balanced, still seem to be the most balanced KZ all-BA set.



Very interesting!
So using 100 Ohm output impedance produce pleasing results. From the measurements posted, the mids, especially upper mids at around 1 kHz are more subdued with adaptors for the more fun V shape (?)
KZ still needs to work put "their mids", in my opinion.

I have a caboodle of impedance adapters. I did not find them improving the sound before for me, but possibly I have not used the right sources.

Then a good option to consider as an extreme of impedance adaptors is a simple volume control box, which typically uses a 1 kOhm variable resistor, so you can vary resistance and attenuate the fun factor

I will try the AS12 next. I really like the BA10's mids and treble too. Mids are not very recessed and treble is smooth with no "BA timbre". I suspect the inner structure of the BA10 is responsible and also the fact that there are no BAs in the nozzle. Also the use of an intermediate BA, the 31005, which makes the original Dee Tee six sound good and also shines in the ZS7.

 

[PhonoPhi]

I will try the AS12 next. I really like the BA10's mids and treble too. Mids are not very recessed and treble is smooth with no "BA timbre". I suspect the inner structure of the BA10 is responsible and also the fact that there are no BAs in the nozzle. Also the use of an intermediate BA, the 31005, which makes the original Dee Tee six sound good and also shines in the ZS7.

Those unique 31005 are also in AS10.
I have not experimented much with BA10, but AS10 are one of the most impedance-dependent IEMs that I experienced, and in somewhat different way than most others all BAs. Perhaps, due to 31005 being low-impedance similar to 29689 that could be one reason that they have not been used further. 29689 BAs seem to be the central part of the impedance dependence of multi-BA IEMs.

I do find older all BAs, such as AS06, AS10 and BA10 a bit grainy in mids and treble, but I like this sound. New generations of BAs are smoother since they are more dampened.
The only difference in drivers in new AS16 pro compared to AS16 original are updated 31736, and then KZ seems to get more bass out of two bass BAs, hopefully similar to AS12.

 

[Barusu Lamperouge]

Price for admission seems fair I'm thinking with the right power (Uh file also) they can sound excellent If they sound as good as my BA10's its a no-brainer My most prized KZ these days however I still tinker with a few

I also have exact same sentiments. BA10 is absolutely a gem of an IEM and by far my favourite IEM made by them. It's a perfect allrounder that's truly masterful with so many genres of music. If AS16 is anywhere close to the BA10 I'm pouncing on them at the first available opportunity!

 

[Nimweth]

I have tried the AS12 with the AP80 Pro X and it is brighter and "faster" in character. The bass is excellent, typical BA bass and it goes deep, but is different from the warmer more DD style bass in the BA10. The BA10 is better balanced whereas the AS 12 is cooler and appears to have more detail due to the brighter treble. I like them both but would still choose the BA10 as my favourite KZ!

 

[independent]

Very interesting!
So using 100 Ohm output impedance produce pleasing results. From the measurements posted, the mids, especially upper mids at around 1 kHz are more subdued with adaptors for the more fun V shape (?)
KZ still needs to work put "their mids", in my opinion.

I have a caboodle of impedance adapters. I did not find them improving the sound before for me, but possibly I have not used the right sources.

Then a good option to consider as an extreme of impedance adaptors is a simple volume control box, which typically uses a 1 kOhm variable resistor, so you can vary resistance and attenuate the fun factor

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to the impedence adapter that reviewers and KZ are recommending with the new AS16 Pro (If I've got this correct).

It just gave me the idea to try the ASF (all BA) IEM straight off the line outputs on my DAC. And reminded me of how low the impedence is of all BA IEMs. The DAC the topping D10, has well researched output stage. Also, I can barely use my IEMs with my headphone amp. That's how the idea came about. So I tried the ASF straight from the line outs and it works.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to the impedence adapter that reviewers and KZ are recommending with the new AS16 Pro (If I've got this correct).

It just gave me the idea to try the ASF (all BA) IEM straight off the line outputs on my DAC. And reminded me of how low the impedence is of all BA IEMs. The DAC the topping D10, has well researched output stage. Also, I can barely use my IEMs with my headphone amp. That's how the idea came about. So I tried the ASF straight from the line outs and it works.

I hope I understood you correctly (?)
I looked at the D10 output impedance, I found two values: 100 Ohm and 88 Ohm.
So it is great to know that ASF can work out well with such high output impedance of the source vs. more common preference for low-impedance sources.

I ordered a switch box with the volume control, and am looking forward now to get AS16 pro and do few tests and comparisons with all-BA IEMs

 

[independent]

I hope I understood you correctly (?)
I looked at the D10 output impedance, I found two values: 100 Ohm and 88 Ohm.
So it is great to know that ASF can work out well with such high output impedance of the source vs. more common preference for low-impedance sources.

I ordered a switch box with the volume control, and am looking forward now to get AS16 pro and do few tests and comparisons with all-BA IEMs

I just use it connected to my computer straight and control the volume from there. Nothing in between so you can try it out without buying a passive volume controller. Comfortable levels for me are in the 20% region.

I'm a bit confused with the technicalities for the impedence. I only check this thread out once and a while. I saw the posts on the the AS16 PRO and impedence matching to headphone amplifiers which I think some people are recommending. This is because all BA IEMs are very low impedence and extremely easy to drive. I remembered there are three opamps in the output stage of my D10 DAC and thought they must be able to handle a really easy to drive IEM. Turns out it works. The sound is something else as well (might be wrong or turn out to be a bad idea, I'm sure someone will measure the FR directly connected to the Line Outs), but I am really enjoying it even if it is.

 

[PhonoPhi]

I just use it connected to my computer straight and control the volume from there. Nothing in between so you can try it out without buying a passive volume controller. Comfortable levels for me are in the 20% region.

I'm a bit confused with the technicalities for the impedence. I only check this thread out once and a while. I saw the posts on the the AS16 PRO and impedence matching to headphone amplifiers which I think some people are recommending. This is because all BA IEMs are very low impedence and extremely easy to drive. I remembered there are three opamps in the output stage of my D10 DAC and thought they must be able to handle a really easy to drive IEM. Turns out it works. The sound is something else as well (might be wrong or turn out to be a bad idea, I'm sure someone will measure the FR directly connected to the Line Outs), but I am really enjoying it even if it is.

All-BA IEMs typically have low impedance for it is an easier way to design them.
It is considered to be a common wisdom that the low source impedance is the simplest way to minimize the frequency response changes of all-BA IEMs introducing deviations from "what was intended".

Beyond this mute point, the "Impedance matching" of an IEM with a source can subjective - what really works the best for personal preferences, as long as the source is able to physically provide necessary voltage and current, which was evidently the case for your setup of D10 and ASF.
It is logical to expect ASF to sound different, and great that you like the difference.
Your experience may open new vistas for other to explore their multi-driver IEMs.

 

[independent]

All-BA IEMs typically have low impedance for it is an easier way to design them.
It is considered to be a common wisdom that the low source impedance is the simplest way to minimize the frequency response changes of all-BA IEMs introducing deviations from "what was intended".

Beyond this mute point, the "Impedance matching" of an IEM with a source can subjective - what really works the best for personal preferences, as long as the source is able to physically provide necessary voltage and current, which was evidently the case for your setup of D10 and ASF.
It is logical to expect ASF to sound different, and great that you like the difference.
Your experience may open new vistas for other to explore their multi-driver IEMs.

It is a different sound. The detail is hard to describe. Nothing wierd is happening with the treble (treble sensitive here) that much I know. The bass is there in spades.

You know I was just about to start on a new journey with headphones. I'd found a set I thought I would like. Being a basshead I'd spied the SRH1540 for sale second hand. Been really wanting to try planars but knowing that unless you spend huge amounts of money for Audeze that bass is hard to come by without equalising.

However, with this seemingly theoretical journey. Reading countless reviews. Checking I'll fit the headband of the SRH1540. Checking that the treble isn't shrill. Making sure the bass is good. Honestly, I can't reasonably say I can afford these headphones at the moment and am I sure I'll get something that will give more satisfaction that what I've already got?

In the end, sometimes it comes down to simple things. I thought, if I'm finding new and greater detail with the IEMs I own, that is, throughout the spectrum and with different but affordable DACs. Able to hear differences in details from DAC to DAC with my ASF then these IEMs must be fairly good at revealing those details. So, I will stay on this journey now. Honestly the sound is really something else straight from the D10.

 

[nraymond]

All-BA IEMs typically have low impedance for it is an easier way to design them.
It is considered to be a common wisdom that the low source impedance is the simplest way to minimize the frequency response changes of all-BA IEMs introducing deviations from "what was intended".

Beyond this mute point, the "Impedance matching" of an IEM with a source can subjective - what really works the best for personal preferences, as long as the source is able to physically provide necessary voltage and current, which was evidently the case for your setup of D10 and ASF.
It is logical to expect ASF to sound different, and great that you like the difference.
Your experience may open new vistas for other to explore their multi-driver IEMs.

I'd recommend reading this good article on headphone impedance:

https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/04/headphone-impedance-demystified/

 

[independent]

Read the article. Looking down the page at the higher distortion characteristics of low impedence headphones (mismatched impedances) by NwAvGuy. As an aside I remember doing his mod, a UCA202 with opamp upgrades and resistor changes from ages ago with BB basic DACs.. Anyway, thinking? have I just outed myself as a lover of harmonic distortion

 

[lgcubana]

Has the whole disconnected or nominal output driver controversy been resolved ?

I‘m not really bothered that some of my multi-driver KZs may not be firing on all cylinders, as I still appreciate them for what they (Zax, BA10, …) are. But I’ve never spent more than $60 for a pair KZs. And I would still entertain a multi-driver unit in the same price range. But once the pricing starts tickling north of $75, it would make me start to wonder about the driver configuration.

 

[Plumbus the Wise]

I love KZ, but they are becoming a meme brand, with their stupid philosophy "let's release one new IEM every week". I can't really believe I am the very first person that discovers KZ Z3 are fake SHAIT. Why would someone buy $50 TWS and NOT CHECK if it's aptX HD?

I just noticed the bad quality of the codec as soon as I started playing music, from The Police to be precise. The drums sounded like those 128kbps mp3, cola can like. I have these no brand $15 TWS IEM with AAC and they sound better, and I precisely spent my holy $50 to improve those and specifically have aptX HD. And then if you use the KZ BT5.0 cable, which works with aptX HD, the sound is 99.99% like the wired IEM. I don't really think I can tell the difference.

I already contacted KZ and they are asking me... FOR A VIDEO TO SHOW evidence. The pictures (screenshots) are not enough, apparently. I might have used Photoshop, right?

Old bump here but my z3s are the worst sounding items I’ve ever used. Not sure if they have an issue or just sound awful. All sub bass and no mids…I don’t mean v, I mean almost none. Sounds disgusting. Shame because connectivity build and battery life is great.

 

[nraymond]

Has the whole disconnected or nominal output driver controversy been resolved ?

I‘m not really bothered that some of my multi-driver KZs may not be firing on all cylinders, as I still appreciate them for what they (Zax, BA10, …) are. But I’ve never spent more than $60 for a pair KZs. And I would still entertain a multi-driver unit in the same price range. But once the pricing starts tickling north of $75, it would make me start to wonder about the driver configuration.

Yes, but not with very public clarity. Basically, there was a glue issue with at least the DQ6s. There wasn't really an issue with the KZ multi-BAs, they seem to be tuned as well as anything else out there, Delta Fyre (and Crinacle for that matter) didn't really have a technical understanding of how multi-BAs are used in an IEM at the start of all this. It was talked about here though:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2386473901653225/permalink/2839232659710678/

TRN BAX- When i spill my glass of water, why does my ceiling get wet?
Doing the same exact thing i did to KZ CRN, disconnecting the positive wire going to the EST (Sonion EST65DA01 Dual- Tweeter) and measuring the frequency response after shows... no changes? not even a SLIGHT drop to those treble peaks around 10k??
Doing the same process to the BA, (Knowles 29689 Unit) disconnecting the BA results in an INCREASE to the frequencies 2K and beyond..
The first thing i did with these troubling results was share it with our friend at DUNU, and asked why the Sonion unit has seemingly negative SPL. They use the same exact Sonion unit in their EST112, and explained that these EST units are simply very low-output drivers in basically EVERY implementation. The sound output of the Sonion EST is about 90dB with proper measurements. The DD in the BAX has an output of 118dB, which is over 100x LOUDER than the EST. These EST drivers are for simply altering timbre. It's for giving an iem that extremely subtle crispiness. And if you've ever listened, you would get the impression that it's working.
So why then are my CRN meaurements so DECEIVING? it's quite simple really, these frequency graphs are a TERRIBLE, horrible way of representing sums...
"The decibel is useful for representing LARGE RATIOS...It's application in systems with additive effects is less intuitive, such as in the combined sound pressure level of two machines operating together" -Wikipedia
All this time I'm using this IEC mic like it's the scroll of truth, forgetting just how MISLEADING statistics can actually be.
As for the BA, I'm thinking maybe the BA could be reversed polarity as a creative way to tune down the DD, or maybe the BA is functioning positively with the DD and the increase we see after it's removed is due to the drop in resistance.
This is a genuine EST earphone with a genuine Sonion EST. Proper implementation. And I'm just SHOCKED to see how the performance is comparible to the cheap magnetostats of today..
Has KZ actually bested Sonion, and did they get bashed for doing it???